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PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct , 2005 8:51 am 
of Vinyamar
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I'm in agreement with Voronwe. I think the longer this is, the less chance that people are going to read it. We've been dealing with this for weeks now and even my eyes started to glaze over.

Short and to the point where possible :)

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PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct , 2005 10:03 am 
Per aspera ad astra
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Sorry, time zones and orce playing aginst me, but I would have voted A too.

(and I'll try to comment more after lunch)

Edited to add: sorry, I just don't make it. And to thank Voronwë....

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PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct , 2005 3:14 pm 
Thanks to Holby

Joined: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 4:02 pm
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Thanks to everyone for sticking with this difficult process. I've put up the thread in the Business Room and asked tinwe to sticky it, unsticky and lock the old one and modify the Global announcement.

We have to stay available as a committee throughout the discussion period in case there are changes to make arising from the membership discussion. Once the ratification vote begins we can adjourn this session and dissolve the committee.

:cheers:


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PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct , 2005 3:45 pm 
Not so deep as a well

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Since Alatar has stepped down from Rangerhood, I'm going to ask an active Ranger to change the links in the global sticky...unless you can still do that because it's your post, Alatar?

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PostPosted: Fri 07 Oct , 2005 9:08 pm 
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These comments were made in the Business Room thread, it is something we hadn't considered in our deliberations:


Rowanberry: Don't the Rangers automatically have access to ToE, even if they're not members of the ToE forum? That's why I think it's also added in here. If someone cannot be trusted enough to be given a normal access to ToE, that person hardly can be trusted with Rangerhood either.


Fixer: If all Rangers are Administrators, they have access to ALL forums regardless of membership in a given group. In this manner, a person denied access to ToE through normal procedures but who gains Ranger status can then browse and post within ToE as they wish.


Alatar: That's a very good point Fixer, and one that I hadn't considered. I'll have to think this over. On the one hand someone should not be denied the opportunity to be a Ranger simply because they have been refused access to ToE. On the other hand, anyone who would be denied access to ToE would almost certainly be objected to if they applied for Ranger duty also. The problem is, what happens if there is a difference in the result of the objections.


It seems to me we have to address this with another amendment in the addendum. The two possibilities that occur to me are

- Rangers are automatically accepted in ToE when they become Rangers

- anyone who has been denied access to ToE is automatically excluded from the Ranger pool

I don't care for the second option, myself. It hypothetically increases the power of ToE members to restrict other posters' membership privileges (a power I'm uncomfortable with already), and it doesn't seem quite right to me.


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PostPosted: Fri 07 Oct , 2005 9:23 pm 
Not so deep as a well

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I don't think we have to address this now. If someone who has been or would be denied access to ToE applies for Ranger status, it's up to us to object. Such objection would almost certainly lead to a hearing, per the Ranger rules.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri 07 Oct , 2005 9:40 pm 
Thanks to Holby

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Okay by me. :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed 12 Oct , 2005 7:02 pm 
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Axordil wrote:
The text of the amendment through the Discretionary Clause would be Paragraph 6 of article 6.

The DC would become Paragraph 7.

You're not referring to the officially designated paragraphs in the current Charter text? Technically the amendment is all part of paragraph 3 of Article 6.


Quote:
The text of the amendment after the DC but before the minor amendments would be at the end of Paragraph 6.

Is this what you had in mind?:

Quote:
The poll will offer the following options:
-I do not think this person should have access to ToE based on the objections stated in the thread
-This option is only here because a poll requires at least two options

When the 10-day period is over a Ranger will announce in the ToE thread whether the petitioner is granted or denied access and will supply the petitioner with a summary of the objections lodged against them, making every effort to avoid revealing the identity of those objecting. The petitioner's thread will be left up for an additional three days, after which time a Ranger will delete it.

If the number of votes is less than that required to deny access, the petitioner will be granted access to the forum and should announce their arrival in the Welcome thread in the forum, which will be created for this purpose.

Discretionary Exception for Extraordinary Circumstance

If a Ranger receives a communication that a ToE member has had a RL experience of a seriously harmful nature with the petitioner, the veracity of which is supported by at least one other ToE member, the Ranger at their discretion may announce in the petitioner's thread in ToE that such a complaint has been brought and the petitioner has summarily been denied access. The petitioner will be informed that a serious complaint has been lodged and their access denied, and the thread will then be locked and deleted. If it is subsequently determined in a hearing that the accusation was false, the accusing member will be subject to penalties up to and including an immediate ban and always including a minimum two-year ban from the Thinking of England forum.

A committee composed of volunteer ToE posters and Rangers will annually review these procedures to assess their effectiveness and determine if changes need to be made. If changes are required, they will make this known to the board at large and the usual procedure for amending the Charter will be followed.




Quote:
I thought, before reviewing, that the phrase noting that a denial was for a six-month period was off by itself, and it is not. It is imbedded in the paragraph:

This raises the question of whether a denial under the DC also has a six-month term, or no term, or what, as there is nothing in the DC defining such. That's what I wanted cleared up, whether by language indicating that the six months applied to all denials or by some other means.

What about if we put something like:

, the Ranger at their discretion may announce in the petitioner's thread in ToE that such a complaint has been brought and the petitioner has summarily been denied access for the normal (customary, usual) 6-month period.

So

Discretionary Exception for Extraordinary Circumstance

If a Ranger receives a communication that a ToE member has had a RL experience of a seriously harmful nature with the petitioner, the veracity of which is supported by at least one other ToE member, the Ranger at their discretion may announce in the petitioner's thread in ToE that such a complaint has been brought and the petitioner has summarily been denied access for the usual 6-month period. The petitioner will be informed that a serious complaint has been lodged and their access denied, and the thread will then be locked and deleted. If it is subsequently determined in a hearing that the accusation was false, the accusing member will be subject to penalties up to and including an immediate ban and always including a minimum two-year ban from the Thinking of England forum.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed 12 Oct , 2005 7:15 pm 
Not so deep as a well

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Something like that, yes.

And while I don't think making this whole thing part of paragraph 3 is such a good idea--too wide ranging for one paragraph, IMO--it's kind late for that level of revision.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed 12 Oct , 2005 7:44 pm 
Thanks to Holby

Joined: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 4:02 pm
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Ax, this is how the article currently looks (minus coloration). I'm using 'paragraph' to mean the designated ¶ sections. They all contain numerous paragraphs within them. I think our amendment properly belongs in the 3rd ¶ section, Eligibility to Access the Age Restricted Forum.

Or do you feel we should have started a new ¶4 called Denial of Access Procedure? I don't see the problem with simply renumbering the ¶s throughout Article 6.



[quote]Article 6: Age Restricted Forum
Ratified May 30, 2005; June 6, 2005

¶1: Front Page disclaimer statement

A statement on the front page of the Message Board and on the registration form will state:

“Notice: Adult language is allowed on B77, but generally occurs no more frequently than in real life. We do require that members be at least thirteen years of age before joining. This board also contains an age restricted forum for discussion of topics inappropriate for children. The contents of this forum are not accessible to members who are under the age of eighteen, nor are they immediately accessible to the newest registrants.

All new Board registrations must provide their date of birth and a confirmation email from the member’s registration email address before membership is activated.â€


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed 12 Oct , 2005 7:54 pm 
Not so deep as a well

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Ah--I wasn't sure how it would fit in--I thought it might follow existing paragraph 4. Yes, I would start a new paragraph 4 and renumber, with the amendment becoming paragraphs 4, 5, and 6, and the existing paragraph 4 becoming paragraph 7.

But that's just me. :D

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed 12 Oct , 2005 8:09 pm 
Thanks to Holby

Joined: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 4:02 pm
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Not meaning to be difficult :D

but would you mind copying and pasting here just what you see as ¶s 4, 5 and 6, and how you would title those ¶s?

I think it would be problematic to have the amendment spread over different ¶s, as it is all of a piece, it is all one procedure.

Here is the current amendment positioned as I had thought appropriate within ¶3 :


Quote:
ARTICLE 6: Age Restricted Forum

¶3: Eligibility to Access the Age Restricted Forum

A member becomes eligible to access the "Thinking of England" forum after three months and 100 posts. After this time, a member can request access to the forum from a Ranger.

AMENDMENT TO ARTICLE 6: PROCEDURE FOR DENIAL OF ACCESS

In recognition of the special level of trust, sensitivity and comfort required in the Thinking Of England forum as already witnessed by the 3 month / 100 posts rule for eligibility, we propose the following amendment:

The following text will be added to the ‘PLEASE READ before posting in this forum!’ sticky in the ToE forum under a heading, ‘Denying Access to this Forum’.

"Seeking to deny another member the benefits and enjoyment of posting in this forum should not be undertaken lightly. Everyone who posts here must take full responsibility for their decision to reveal intimate and sensitive information to people they do not know and may not like. It would be unfair to shift the responsibility for personal feelings of vulnerability to others by trying to keep them out of this forum if the concern is not in some way related to an awareness of questionable behavior on their part."

When a member requests access to the forum, a Ranger will title an announcement thread in the ToE forum with the petitioning member’s name and will post in it the following text:

"(Member name) has requested access to this forum. Members have until (10 days from day of announcement) to consider whether they have a reasonable belief that the rules pertaining to posting on the ToE forum are likely to be broken by the petitioner based on past experience either here or elsewhere. Those rules include posting in a manner that ridicules, demeans or threatens other posters, or engaging in provocation or the spreading of sensitive information.

ToE members who object to the petitioner gaining access should submit a brief explanation by PM to a Ranger or by email to the Administrator account (List of Rangers and Admin. acct. email address). A Ranger will send an email acknowledgment to each person who submits an objection to let them know their objection has been received, and will forward a copy of this acknowledgment to a designated ToE member. Once two objections are submitted, a summary of those objections will be posted in this thread and the thread will continue to be updated in this way as more objections are received.

Approximately halfway (five days) into the objection period, a poll will be added to the thread; ToE members who believe the petitioner should be denied access based on the objections listed may indicate this by voting in the poll. If 12 ToE members vote to exclude the petitioner, the petitioner will be denied access to the forum for six months. Forum members are trusted to refrain from trying to deny the petitioner access without good reason."

The poll will offer the following options:
-I do not think this person should have access to ToE based on the objections stated in the thread
-This option is only here because a poll requires at least two options

When the 10-day period is over a Ranger will announce in the ToE thread whether the petitioner is granted or denied access, will state the number of objections submitted and will supply the petitioner with a summary of the objections lodged against them, making every effort to avoid revealing the identity of those objecting. The petitioner's thread will be left up for an additional three days, after which time a Ranger will delete it.

If the number of objections is less than that required to deny access, the petitioner will be granted access to the forum and should announce their arrival in the Welcome thread in the forum, which will be created for this purpose.

Discretionary Exception for Extraordinary Circumstance

If a Ranger receives a communication that a ToE member has had a RL experience of a seriously harmful nature with the petitioner, the veracity of which is supported by at least one other ToE member, the Ranger at their discretion may announce in the petitioner's thread in ToE that such a complaint has been brought and the petitioner has summarily been denied access. The petitioner will be informed that a serious complaint has been lodged and their access denied, and the thread will then be locked and deleted. If it is subsequently determined in a hearing that the accusation was false, the accusing member will be subject to penalties up to and including an immediate ban and always including a minimum two-year ban from the Thinking of England forum.

A committee composed of volunteer ToE posters and Rangers will annually review these procedures to assess their effectiveness and determine if changes need to be made. If changes are required, they will make this known to the board at large and the usual procedure for amending the Charter will be followed.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed 12 Oct , 2005 8:36 pm 

Joined: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 6:53 pm
Posts: 5134
I think it is perfectly appropriate to add the amendment language to ¶3: Eligibility to Access the Age Restricted Forum. However, as a point of procedure, I don't think the following language need be added to the Charter:

Quote:
The following text will be added to the ‘PLEASE READ before posting in this forum!’ sticky in the ToE forum under a heading, ‘Denying Access to this Forum’.

"Seeking to deny another member the benefits and enjoyment of posting in this forum should not be undertaken lightly. Everyone who posts here must take full responsibility for their decision to reveal intimate and sensitive information to people they do not know and may not like. It would be unfair to shift the responsibility for personal feelings of vulnerability to others by trying to keep them out of this forum if the concern is not in some way related to an awareness of questionable behavior on their part."


Instead of adding that to the Charter, I think that if the amendment passes, that action should simply be taken (e.g., that language should be added to the sticky).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed 12 Oct , 2005 8:40 pm 
Not so deep as a well

Joined: Tue 11 Jan , 2005 3:02 am
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I see three separate procedures: normal denial, discretionary denial, and review of the above.

Thus:


Paragraph 4:
When a member requests access to the forum, a Ranger will title an announcement thread in the ToE forum with the petitioning member’s name and will post in it the following text:

"(Member name) has requested access to this forum. Members have until (10 days from day of announcement) to consider whether they have a reasonable belief that the rules pertaining to posting on the ToE forum are likely to be broken by the petitioner based on past experience either here or elsewhere. Those rules include posting in a manner that ridicules, demeans or threatens other posters, or engaging in provocation or the spreading of sensitive information.

ToE members who object to the petitioner gaining access should submit a brief explanation by PM to a Ranger or by email to the Administrator account (List of Rangers and Admin. acct. email address). A Ranger will send an email acknowledgment to each person who submits an objection to let them know their objection has been received, and will forward a copy of this acknowledgment to a designated ToE member. Once two objections are submitted, a summary of those objections will be posted in this thread and the thread will continue to be updated in this way as more objections are received.

Approximately halfway (five days) into the objection period, a poll will be added to the thread; ToE members who believe the petitioner should be denied access based on the objections listed may indicate this by voting in the poll. If 12 ToE members vote to exclude the petitioner, the petitioner will be denied access to the forum for six months. Forum members are trusted to refrain from trying to deny the petitioner access without good reason."

The poll will offer the following options:
-I do not think this person should have access to ToE based on the objections stated in the thread
-This option is only here because a poll requires at least two options

When the 10-day period is over a Ranger will announce in the ToE thread whether the petitioner is granted or denied access, will state the number of objections submitted and will supply the petitioner with a summary of the objections lodged against them, making every effort to avoid revealing the identity of those objecting. The petitioner's thread will be left up for an additional three days, after which time a Ranger will delete it.

If the number of objections is less than that required to deny access, the petitioner will be granted access to the forum and should announce their arrival in the Welcome thread in the forum, which will be created for this purpose.


Paragraph 5:
Discretionary Exception for Extraordinary Circumstance

If a Ranger receives a communication that a ToE member has had a RL experience of a seriously harmful nature with the petitioner, the veracity of which is supported by at least one other ToE member, the Ranger at their discretion may announce in the petitioner's thread in ToE that such a complaint has been brought and the petitioner has summarily been denied access. The petitioner will be informed that a serious complaint has been lodged and their access denied, and the thread will then be locked and deleted. If it is subsequently determined in a hearing that the accusation was false, the accusing member will be subject to penalties up to and including an immediate ban and always including a minimum two-year ban from the Thinking of England forum.

Paragraph 6:
A committee composed of volunteer ToE posters and Rangers will annually review these procedures to assess their effectiveness and determine if changes need to be made. If changes are required, they will make this known to the board at large and the usual procedure for amending the Charter will be followed.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed 12 Oct , 2005 8:44 pm 
Thanks to Holby

Joined: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 4:02 pm
Posts: 2039
Thank you, Voronwe.

Regarding the sticky text, don't we want to retain some record that the presence and content of the statement is mandated by the Charter? Or perhaps these discussion threads being preserved are enough of a record of that?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed 12 Oct , 2005 9:07 pm 
Not so deep as a well

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Cerin:

I think that's exactly it: the record of the discussion shows where something came from, if anyone ever asks.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed 12 Oct , 2005 9:49 pm 
Thanks to Holby

Joined: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 4:02 pm
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Axordil wrote:
I see three separate procedures: normal denial, discretionary denial, and review of the above.

Yet they are all part of one system for denial of access, which in turn, it strikes me, is an aspect of eligibility.

I could see creating a new ¶4 with the entire amendment, but I wouldn't want to split it up into three ¶s.

Perhaps some other committee members will chime in with an opinion on this.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed 12 Oct , 2005 9:53 pm 

Joined: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 6:53 pm
Posts: 5134
Ax, having this all part of one paragraph is consistent with the way the rest of the Charter is structured. Check out, for instance, Article 5, Paragraph 9. It is a lot longer and has many more subsections then what we are talking about here.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu 13 Oct , 2005 9:37 pm 
Not so deep as a well

Joined: Tue 11 Jan , 2005 3:02 am
Posts: 7358
Location: In your wildest dreams
V--

Ah...point taken. I would have split it up too, had I been in the same mood I am now, but oh well. :)

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