The Last Homely Site on the Web
It is currently Sun 18 Aug , 2019 10:23 pm

All times are UTC

Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 2 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri 21 Oct , 2005 3:42 pm 

Joined: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 6:53 pm
Posts: 5138
Rangers note:

This thread was moved from the Bike Racks forum on 24 October 05 at the request of the thread starter, who offered this comment - "According to Voronwë, this is how a board77 Mediator should NOT act. Remember that patience is a virtue."

Friends, we have an unfortunate situation on our hands. On Wednesday afternoon, at 4:29 p.m. PST, I wrote (as part of six "rules" for the mediation):

4. I want you each to send me a PM with a brief description of what you perceive to be the problem, what role each of the six of you including yourself have played in creating the problem, and what your ideal solution to the problem would be, short of anyone being banned. I would like to receive these PMs by tomorrow night (I am on PST). I don't want to receive any of them in a half hour. I really want you to put some thought into them. I know much of it will be repeating what you have said here already, but I still see value in having you address this information to me privately.

Each of the six of you affirmed that you agreed to abide by these rules. I have received all of the requested information from three of the six parties to this dispute. The individuals who provided that information obviously took some time and care at doing so, including taking an honest look at their own roles in the problems that we are trying to address. However, here it is Friday morning, and I have still not received from the other three the information that they agreed to provide by last night.

Most troubling, the three who did take the time to provide the information are all on one "side" of the issue, and the three that have failed to abide by your agreement to do so are all on the other side of the issue. Now, perhaps that is just a coincidence. I know that shit happens and that sometimes people don't get to do what they intend to do, when they intend to it. Still the fact that ALL THREE OF THE LIBERTARIANS FAILED TO ABIDE BY THEIR OWN AGREEMENT is very troubling.

It is very tempting to reach certain conclusions based on this. It is tempting to conclude the libertarians believe that they are somehow above the rules. It is tempting to conclude that the libertarians don't want to examine their own roles in causing the problems that have occurred. And, most troubling, it is tempting to conclude that the libertarians are not honestly interested in working to find a solution to the problem.

I am honestly stymied as to how to proceed. If it were just one of the three of you that had not provided the requested information, I would not be concerned. I did receive a couple of suggestions for solutions to the problem from C_G, but that is all. Nothing at all about what he perceives to be the problem, or what role each of the six of you including himself have played in creating the problem, nor any indication that he was intending to provide this requested information. Yov contacted me this morning and requested that I use a previous post of his as his contribution. But post does nothing other then complain about SF, and makes no effort to look at the role that Yov himself, or the other libertarians, have had in contributing to this problem. And I have not heard anything at all from Meril.

I don't believe there is any point in continuing this process. Even if we reach an agreement, what guarantee is there that the three of them will actually abide by that agreement any more then they have abided by their agreement to provide the information requested? Nonetheless, I think that there are certain principles that you can all abide by to prevent this problem from continuing to plague the board. I will spell them out here, for whatever it is worth:

1. First and foremost, all of the name-calling must cease. You should all (well not really Ax, but the rest of you) be on notice that if you refer to each other as idiots, hypocrites, ass-lickers, pig farmers (sorry SF, but the pigs have to go) or any other personally derogatory name you will likely be brought up for a hearing for engaging in a pattern of personal attacks, because you have all been guilty of doing this. Attack the ideas as vigorously as necessary; defend the ideas as vigorously as possible. But stay away from the name calling at all costs.

2. Avoid ad infinitum back and forth debates about Libertarianism. If C_G makes a point SF absolutely should have the right to respond to that point. But that should be it for them. If C_G responds, then SF is going to respond to that and then Yov is going jump in, or Meril, and then Ara will come defending SF and it goes on and on and on.

3. Avoid asserting extreme positions unless you are willing to support those positions with logical arguments, not just an assertion of a belief system.

4. Avoiding being condescending when debating with not only each other, but with others as well.

5. Take the time to think before you post. If you can't self-edit, then eventually the powers that be (such as they are) are going to have to do it for you. And I think that would be a great shame.

I think each of the six of you brings a lot of good things to the table, and that you are all valuable contributors to board77. I strongly support the right of each of you to express your views. That means that the libertarians should be able to express views that some of us might find difficult to accept (such as the discussion about discrimination laws). It also means that SF should be able to strenuously contest those ideas, because his believe that Libertarianism is a dangerous creed is just as valid as C_G's belief in Libertarian principles.

Part of the problem is certainly that that idealogical gulf is so wide (and I use SF and S_G as being the extremes on both sides, but it applies to all of you). But I believe that most of the problem is the personalities of those involved. SF, Ara, and Ax have demonstrated a willingness to address this more difficult part of the problem. SF in particular has demonstrated a real willingness to address the aspects of his own personality and posting style that have contributed to exascerbating the problem to such a great extent.

That is what is most troubling about the failure of C_G, Yov and Meril to do the gritty part of the work that I asked them to do (and that they agreed to do). I see this as a reflection of a fundamental part of the problem. A big part of the problem is a perception (not just among the non-Libertarian parties to this dispute, but widely held by others here as well) that there is an overriding arrogance to the stance taken by the Libertarians of "we and we alone know what is right." This arrogance seems to be reflected in the failure of the libertarians to follow the rules that I laid out for this mediation, despite their agreement to do so, and most particularly their complete failure to address in any meaningful way their own role in the development of the problem.

I am in many ways an old-fashioned person; I believe that when someone gives their word that they are going to do something, they should be held to that. I have spent a considerable amount of my free time over the past fews days trying to address this problem, but given the complete failure of one side to follow through with their part of the bargain, I am not willing to continue to do so. As the old saying goes, "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me." I won't be fooled again. At this point, it is up to you all to either act responsibly, or not. I wish you all the best of luck.

Rangers, please lock this thread.

 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri 21 Oct , 2005 5:41 pm 
Can never be buggered at all
User avatar

Joined: Fri 04 Mar , 2005 3:50 pm
Posts: 828
As you wish. Inform the Rangers if the situation changes and you want this unlocked again.

People, you and me, are not trusted. The right doesn't like us because we don't do what we're told by our betters, and the left doesn't like us because it secretly thinks we would be on the right given half a chance and a lottery win. And both think we should not make our own decisions, because we might make the wrong ones. ~ Terry Pratchett

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 2 posts ] 

All times are UTC

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group