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Admin Powers and Bannings

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Leoba
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Posted: Sun 20 Feb , 2005 8:33 pm
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Alassante_Estel wrote:
I personally think that any admin here who (seriously) locks a thread as if they were some sort of mod, could be de-admined by the members of the board, if they see fit.
They could equally easily remove the powers of every other admin and leave themselves in sole control. They can also ban people, ban IP addresses, delete half the threads, edit people's posts should they so wish... There is genuine potential for it to go arse over tit if we end up with the wrong person in power.

But that is a risk we have chosen to run with.

The admins are moderated by their own sense of honour and by their sense of respect for the rest of the community. But they do have power. To pretend otherwise would be laughable.

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Estel
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Posted: Sun 20 Feb , 2005 8:39 pm
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Well, one control over that is that when we move to the new boards, there will be an "owner" status as well.

Granted, Steve would never ever use it, but if an admin ever decided to flip out like that, we would have a back-up :)


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Lidless
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Posted: Sun 20 Feb , 2005 9:38 pm
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I refuse to believe that we would vote for an admin with that potential.

Yes, it's possible, as are all things in life. We could go as far as to say what happens if the back-up Estel mentions (me), flips out and bans all the admins.

You have to draw the line somewhere and have trust in people.

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Impenitent
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Posted: Mon 21 Feb , 2005 12:44 am
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I'm casting no aspersions on anyone but - this is precisely what happened on a board I was on (I've harped on it before), a tiny board, nearly all of them friends and acquaintances in RL, when one of those who set up the board and did alot of the background coding (whatever that is) suddenly turned Jekyll and Hyde.

It is unlikely; of course it is. But stranger things have happened. Keeping in mind that the unexpected and bizarre can occur means it can't hit us entirely unprepared.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Mon 21 Feb , 2005 2:06 am
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Leoba wrote:
The admins are moderated by their own sense of honour and by their sense of respect for the rest of the community. But they do have power. To pretend otherwise would be laughable.
Very well said, Leoba. I think we all expect anyone who becomes an admin to use their power responsibly. But to pretend that the admins "don't have power" (or the "owner[s]" for that matter) is IMHO just as dangerous as ceding them too much power.

I'm still just a raw n00b, of course, and I'm still forming my impressions of the place. I hope to share some more of those impressions down the line.


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Ethel
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Posted: Mon 21 Feb , 2005 5:05 am
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I have finally read this whole thread. First I would like to acknowledge the thought and care that Jnyusa has put into it. Truly, we are not worthy! :bow:

I have some specific responses to posts which I will get to later. (Or, well, maybe I won't. This post has become ungainly.) But first I want to share some general thoughts. One thing that genuinely worries me about B77 is its "allergy" to authority. I understand it - oh, I understand it completely. It's a reaction against a perceived abuse of power at a messageboard which shall remain nameless. I have seen the same things that you have seen, and I share your concerns.

But there has never been a human community - ever, in the history of the world - that didn't end up having some kind of "police force." I would love to think that we will all, always, be responsible and respectful. I'm sorry to say that idea is not congruent with my experience of humanity. It might work as long as this is an invitation only board - but then again it might not. It certainly will not work with an open board. I am sorry to sound like such a cynic. It pains me. But I was a moderator at TORC for 2 years. It's like being a cop. You see a lot of bad behavior. The fact that you believe - and I don't disagree - that some people in positions of authority at TORC abused that authority does not mean that "no authority" is the solution. I still, and will always, believe that 90% of the moderator actions taken at TORC were absolutely the right thing to do. Most of you never even saw the trolls. We deleted their posts and banned them quick as dammit.

One of the best messageboards I know is devoted to the works of Jane Austen. The people who run it, run it with an iron fist. (In a velvet glove with lace trim. :D!) It is very strictly moderated. They allow no discussion of politics or religion, and they strictly enforce "on topicness" within forums. It is a peaceful, pleasant, intelligent and delightful place. It has been around for about 8 years now - an eternity in internet time - and pretty much the same people have been in charge the whole time. I will be attending one of their RL meetings this summer.

I mention this because, well, in my experience, more strictly moderated sites tend to be more successful than less strictly moderated ones. I know no one here wants to hear that. TORC itself was wonderful - a haven of civility and intelligence - until certain recent developments.

I think it's time to ask ourselves, very seriously and in all honesty: do we want to build a great messageboard, or do we want to experiment with democracy? I cannot name a single messageboard out there - of course I don't know them all but I have sampled several - where everything is decided by majority vote. Now, it's possible that this will be the first one. It's possible that everyone else is wrong and we are right.

But... is it likely? Are we actually going to invent a better wheel here?

I know no one wants to hear this. Flame away. I would love to believe that humans can peacefully coexist without rules and authority. Nothing would make me happier. But... I'm not optimistic.

I had to say it. And I hope there is acknowledgement that I have the right to do so.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Mon 21 Feb , 2005 5:49 am
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Ethel, how's this for flaming:

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Impenitent
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Posted: Mon 21 Feb , 2005 5:56 am
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I acknowledge your right to do so :) (not that I stand for much, known for being a flip-flopper of the highest calibre).

Moreover, I suspect you may be right; but I've only been to three MBs so I really have little basis for breadth of comparison. (One was TORC; the other was that tiny board which was run with assumed good will and descended into unhappy anarchy).

However - if one compares a MB community to a RL community - and they are not so dissimilar because both kinds are made up of PEOPLE! - then, indeed, I suspect you are right.

What B77 is at the moment is close to the model of one of those idealist 60s communes, in which the founding members are full of high hopes and ideals, infused with a sense of responsibility and cooperation. There aren't very many communes left that still run along those lines - and those that do have morphed into something a little different - with a nod to the need for authority of some kind. (Nimbin in Australia started that way and is now a thriving community town).

Consensus only works amongst small groups IMO; and it only works when everyone feels they have a real stake in the very foundations of the thing.

I'm not saying my ruminations have a direct application to B77 and/or its development. I was simply reflecting on Ethel's comments.

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Nin
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Posted: Mon 21 Feb , 2005 10:49 am
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Ethel; I hear you. And I think the discussion we are having now, is to find the rules we all feel are necessary to bring up once this messageboard is to be opened. The way it works now, it works because we all know each other to a certain extend.

TORC has been a great place for most of the time I have been posting there - and that is precisely the reason why it was hard to leave it. I hope it can still be for others what it has been for me. And I hope board 77 can be it too, when it's open.

One side is the rules - the other question is how to apply them. A big aspect of the TORC break-down was the how and by whom decision were taken. I could have lived more easily with most of the decisions, had they been announced and discussed differently (now personnally I was only moderated in the German/Fandom incident). I don't like some of the decisions taken on board 77 so far (especially on the invite side) but as they have been taken by majority consent, I can live with it. I accept them. If admins continue to be changing every four months, and all those who take the job subscribe to the values expressed - as the posters in here do, I think somehow we come to a status, where everybody is a mod - like in a democracy where everybody has the right to vote. But the admins have power (and I have shown openly my sensibility on the use of it). Posters who are willing and able to give more to the community - they should be allowed to do so. So I like the idea of volounteering for admin jobs, conciliation between posters etc.

And maybe that's just me, but I feel more responsable on this board, than I ever felt on TORC. I vote - I read - and when I see mistakes like non-deleted invite threads, or resquests as: could you send an e-mail... I try to point them out immediately. I think many of us have this sense of responsability. And if they allow the rest of the posters to rely on them, this should work.

I don't know if this makes any sense. I did not read the entire thread :oops:

If after that confession any my recent sensibility out-burst concerning admin powers and humour you still feel that I could maybe one day help out if disputes arise: I am willing to be there.

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truehobbit
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Posted: Mon 21 Feb , 2005 7:44 pm
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I'll divide this reply in two parts, in order to address the two very different questions here.

First I'd like to respond to Voronwe, Leoba and Estel, on the question that I brought up.
I think what V and Leoba are talking about is the general and theoretical power of an admin. Yes, they can press all sorts of buttons, and you could call that power, and yes, you can never be hundred percent sure about people - so, yes, theoretically it's possible that tomorrow Griff deletes the whole messageboard because she feels like it. I just don't think it's very likely.
What I was talking about is the very regular, normal "power" of the admins here, and that, from what I have gathered so far, is exactly what Estel said, and what I also tried to say previously: the admins press buttons only according to the rules of the board (ie, for example, deleting invite threads) and in agreement with the decisions of the posters.
Thus, I'd also say that a case like I described, locking a thread because a conflict seemed to escalate, would be overstepping your powers. (In such a case, from the way I understand the procedures discussed here, I think the admin would have to contact the people involved and ask them to "take it outside". This is if the posters involved are long-standing members - we were discussing short shrift for trolls.)
So, although of course you could say an admin has power in a general sense of the word, when it comes to everyday processes, I think there is no decision-making power.
Ber once defined admin-power saying: it's like being the bank in a board game. I like that definition, and I'd hope we could keep it that way here.
Like lidless said, it does take some advance on trust in people.

Which leads me to the more general discussion Ethel started. (I really hope this does not come across as flaming! Honest, I mean it nicely! :) )

I quite agree that in real life - and hence probably also in virtual communities - the kind of community we are having here is bound to fail.
I think Imp has it right: this is like one of those idealist groups of the 60s and it's a model that only works in small communities.
I have no idea what will happen once we open up or become a larger community.
The point is, for me, even if the experiment has failed a hundred times before - I just want to try it yet once more.
I don't like the idea of giving up on an ideal just because it usually fails. It's like giving up pre-emptively, and I don't like that idea.

This is not because of TORC - it has to do with my general attitude towards authority. I guess it's just a personal thing. I can't stand authority to be felt and seen.
I'll try to explain, but I'm not sure if I'll manage.
If I had found that Jane Austen messageboard you mentioned, Ethel, and had just seen it's friendly and clever, I might have joined and liked it.
Now, that I know someone runs it with "iron fist", there's no way I'd feel tempted to go there.
I don't know if I can explain that.
I was blissfully happy on TORC for very long, not even knowing there was such a thing as authority there.
And, yes, now I realize that for a great part my time there only was so peaceful because the mods kept the trolls away.
But that's what we want for here, too. We do want to remove trolls quickly and efficiently.
The rest of the friendly atmosphere on TORC, however, I think was mainly thanks to the friendly nature of the posters, not thanks to the rules or rule-enforcement. I'm pretty sure that the people I most liked posting with there would also behave decently in a surrounding without firm rules and a police force.
Maybe I'm just naive and everybody is really a jerk who only behaves themselves as long as they are driven to do so by forces from outside - but I simply refuse to believe that.

What my hopes for this place are is that we have started with a group of people who are willing and able to behave themselves in a decent fashion towards the other members simply because that's the way they like it, not because they face some consequences if they misbehave.
This, I hope, sets a tone, an atmosphere, for the whole board, which will draw only like-minded people.
And because of that it should be possible to have a community of people who all feel like that, who all are decent because they want to be, not because they know that if they aren't someone will swoop down on them and punish them.

I'm not at all sure whether I'm just babbling here, or getting anything across.

I like this board working by invitation, and I think the greatest danger will come from opening up to the general public.
But we are trying to establish ourselves in such a way that we can handle this, and so that we have some emergency plan if things go wrong - this is what is being discussed at the moment - so, although I'm skeptical about the chances of success, I'm curious to try it.
I have no problem at all with some sort of authority that gets rid of trolls, and any other forms of disruption that clearly are nothing but trouble for the sake of trouble. I think something like that is necessary.
But I also think people can live peacefully together without authority hovering over them, reminding them that there are rules to obey.
So, I think it's worth a try to see what happens if you leave these people - who are bound to have conflicts in spite of all good intentions - to work out their problems in a spirit of responsibility.

Some people just like being guided, they prefer not having to think for themselves and relying on a police-force to come and collect those who misbehave, even if that means themselves. I actually think most people in the world are like that. That's why the "iron fist" management style Ethel mentioned is so successful.

I'm the opposite to that, though, and I'm under the impression that this goes for most people here. And that's why I think we just have to try our way.
Like I said to Squiddy in a chat once, when she showed me the "Admin Zone" messageboard, and I saw a discussion about keeping your members "in line": I prefer to keep myself in line, thanks very much!
So, as I said earlier, for me, this has nothing to do with TORC having disappointed me or so - it's just a personal thing I have with authority. I don't like the feeling that someone is keeping me in line. :)

Whether it first was created thanks to the mods or the TOS I can't tell - but TORC I think has a friendly atmosphere that draws friendly people. Once you have that atmosphere underway, I believe there's not much policing necessary.
I hope that here we can set up just such a friendly atmosphere, and that this will perpetuate itself automatically.
We'll try to come up with a way to deal with trolls, but apart from that, we'll rely on the common sense of our members.
And (as Lady Macbeth said ;) ) if we fail - we fail. (And probably just switch to an ordinarily policed and modded board pronto.) :D

Edit: reading this I realise that what I want is something like the Shire :) : it's good to have the Rangers keep the enemies from outside away, but within the Shire, government isn't necessary and the Shirriffs aren't a serious police force. People managed themselves - but the Shire remained a closed community (which is probably why I like this to be a closed community). So, I say, let's have a Shire, and let's see what happens if it opens up. :)

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Ethel
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Posted: Mon 21 Feb , 2005 8:45 pm
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The Jane Austen board I mentioned is: http://www.pemberley.com. It's a very nice place - check it out. Of course, unless you're interested in Jane Austen it won't have much to offer you. But for a pleasant, friendly, civil and highly intelligent place, I have yet to meet its match on the net. Their FAQ is an interesting read - they know exactly what they want their community to be, which makes achieving it fairly straightforward.

I'm not going to argue about the authority issue any more. I understand how you all feel about it. It's natural. I will only say this: as a mod on TORC, most of what I did was invisible, or nearly so, to the general population. I have seen even generally excellent citizens blow up and lash out in pretty destructive ways. Maybe it won't happen here. I hope not.

For disputes between two posters, I like the "outside" forum idea. This makes it possible for anyone who is exasperated with a personal dispute - which happened often in Manwe and occasionally in Movies - to say, "hey you two - take it Outside, okay?"

Apart from that, I think the simplest means of governance is to appoint (or nominate, or vote on, or whatever) a handful - needs to be at least 3 I think - of people to perform management functions. Call them stewards or servants or pink bunnies for that matter, if admin and/or mod seems too threatening. By all means rotate the positions - although I think a rotation of less than 6 months is way too short. Just my opinion.

Presumably these will be people who are generally trusted. Let them perform all the management functions, from forum creation to troll expulsion. Have a forum where such actions can be discussed if people feel the need, but give them some leeway to take action when action is needed. The impermanence of the position will act as a brake on tendencies toward megalomania. The more I think about juries and facilitators and so forth, the more unworkable it all seems to me.

As a final brake on abuse of power, make all bannings temporary - 3 months, maybe. (Someone - I think it was Mummpizz - said earlier that he wanted to avoid bannings entirely. I think this is idealistic. Some trolls will indeed go away if you ignore them, but some won't.)

I spent a long time trying to think through the various suggestions here about dispute resolution, and I didn't get very far. I just couldn't get them to play out even as a thought experiment. So then I tried thinking, "Okay, what does a good board look like? How is it governed?" All the examples I came up with were fairly traditional - they all have moderators of some type. What differentiates the bad from the good is that, on the good boards, rules are reasonable and clear, enforcement is fair and consistent, and the 'enforcers' are in tune with the community - the focus is more on the spirit than the letter of the rules.

I'm aware that's not the direction people want to go here, and that's fine. I will happily support whatever structure can be agreed on, if any. :)

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Estel
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Posted: Mon 21 Feb , 2005 9:13 pm
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Just a little thing before I run off to do some errands.



Don't we need to figure out what the rules of the board are before we decide the manner in which they are enforced?




I ask this, because at the moment, our "enforcement" is the invite process. Everyone who comes is someone that the majority of voters approved of. When we open the boards, this level of enforcement is gone. We don't have any rules right now, because none are needed. Everyone knows to be respectful.
If they're going to curse, to do so in moderations (or put a warning up as I did in my venting thread).
If there is an arguement with another poster to have as honestly and in as friendly a manner as possible. etc etc

So, thinking of how we're going to run the board and what to do with rule breaker people is all well and good, but what are the rules going to be?
I'm good with just a general, don't flame, don't troll... be respectful, be honest. Use common sense when posting.
For some people, however, they need to know exactly what is and what is not allowed. Are we going to be that kind of board? Do we want to be that kind of board?

Honestly, my thought for when the board opens up, is that anyone can read, and anyone can register, however when people register, there is a 24 (or 48) hour waiting time before they can actually post. That period would get rid of at least some of the fake email addy, trolling, spamming, flaming - only interested in making one post, kind of people.

Alright, I lie - I wouldn't want the board to be open at all, except to read. Anyone who wanted to join would have to answer an email which asked them why they think they would make a good poster in our community - or else they would have to be invited.

I'm really a bit of a snob when it comes to this place. I like it small, I like it self-governing, and I really don't feel the need to open it up to anyone and everyone. We're growing just fine right now, and if we get people who visit other message boards, they'll invite their friends who will invite their friends, etc etc - Like Wilma, who is an active member of a farscape forum, and might invite her friends from there to come here as well.

I think we'll grow just fine without opening the boards up. The only difference is, we'll have to have admin whose sole purpose is taking care of the invites.

Ok, that ended up being a bit long, and it was more of a ramble than anything else - didn't have these thoughts clear in my head until I wrote them down, and they're not even really all that clear now.

That's the great thing about this place though - you can throw your thoughts down, and if someone agrees, they can take them and expand on them. I love it :)


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Axordil
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Posted: Mon 21 Feb , 2005 9:18 pm
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Interesting. I am detecting a certain amount of resistance to the idea of opening up the boards, not just here but in other threads.

It is certainly true that the nature of enforcement (if that word even applies) is going to be different in a open as opposed to an invite community.

It is also true that soon the present invite process will become unwieldy due to board size...

Moreover, some of these "big issues" are of the chicken and egg variety--hard to settle one without settling the others. This is especially hard to do via the board format as opposed to realtime in person.

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Ethel
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Posted: Mon 21 Feb , 2005 9:29 pm
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Axordil wrote:
Interesting. I am detecting a certain amount of resistance to the idea of opening up the boards, not just here but in other threads.

It is certainly true that the nature of enforcement (if that word even applies) is going to be different in a open as opposed to an invite community.
Yes. I'd say that's question number one at this point. If it is to forever remain a closed community, issues of governance become much less pressing. Presumably people will be able to work things out among themselves - or will leave if they feel they can't.

So perhaps this discussion is moot at this point, and not in the Entish sense.

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MariaHobbit
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Alassante_Estel wrote:
Alright, I lie - I wouldn't want the board to be open at all, except to read. Anyone who wanted to join would have to answer an email which asked them why they think they would make a good poster in our community - or else they would have to be invited.
I don't think I could ever write such a letter describing how good I'd be for the community--- at least not in any sort of convincing way. And I suspect that I am not the only one.

You'd just create a hurdle that many shy types would be unwilling or unable to jump.

Maybe a questionnaire would get you more and better info.

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Axordil
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Posted: Mon 21 Feb , 2005 10:06 pm
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Yeah, but you wouldn't need to, because we all like you. :D

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Ethel
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Posted: Mon 21 Feb , 2005 10:11 pm
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MariaHobbit wrote:
Alassante_Estel wrote:
Alright, I lie - I wouldn't want the board to be open at all, except to read. Anyone who wanted to join would have to answer an email which asked them why they think they would make a good poster in our community - or else they would have to be invited.
I don't think I could ever write such a letter describing how good I'd be for the community--- at least not in any sort of convincing way. And I suspect that I am not the only one.
Erm... yeah. Agree with Maria here. To me the only reasonable choices are to either keep it invitation only, or to open it up. I can't imagine writing an email explaining why I wanted to join an online community. Or filling out a questionnaire for that matter. I don't think it protects you much anyway. Diffident people will simply take a pass; people interested in trolling might well make the effort. It's easy enough to sound nice in an email.

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Nin
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Posted: Mon 21 Feb , 2005 10:12 pm
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I also like the idea of a kind of explanation why someone wants to join - I have told that numerous times before and am happy to see the idea elsewhere. :)

Maybe not why can you be a good member of the community - but what in the threads you have read made you want to join....

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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Mon 21 Feb , 2005 10:33 pm
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Or, maybe- Have them read whatever rules and bylaws we eventually settle on, and have them take a quiz afterwards!

Just getting through the dispute resolution section should deter any casual trolls! ;)

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Ethel
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Posted: Mon 21 Feb , 2005 10:43 pm
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MariaHobbit wrote:
Or, maybe- Have them read whatever rules and bylaws we eventually settle on, and have them take a quiz afterwards!

Just getting through the dispute resolution section should deter any casual trolls! ;)
It would certainly deter me! :mrgreen:

_________________

Living well is the best revenge. --George Herbert


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