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Hearing on disruption of the Symposium Forum against halplm

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Rebecca
Post subject: Re: Hearing on disruption of the Symposium Forum against halplm
Posted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 3:51 pm
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Ara-anna wrote:
Can the rest of the board see the questions that Estel posted for them? I am just curious, because I can't remember if this thread is closed to the rest of the board.
They can see it, but not respond in this forum.

(at least, that's the way we set it up. I've seen members viewing this forum under "Who is Online," so I assume we did it correctly).


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LalaithUrwen
Post subject: Re: Hearing on disruption of the Symposium Forum against halplm
Posted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 3:53 pm
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I checked with Freddy's account. He can see it. (I didn't try posting, though.)


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Ara-anna
Post subject: Re: Hearing on disruption of the Symposium Forum against halplm
Posted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 3:56 pm
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Good to hear. I was worried that Estel's questions could not be seen by the board.

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halplm
Post subject: Re: Hearing on disruption of the Symposium Forum against halplm
Posted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 4:11 pm
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I have a concern with Estels questions. I had this concern going into this hearing, but did not bring it up as I hoped it wouldn't be an issue.

There are two paths this hearing can take. The first is for the jury to decide my guilt or innocence with regards to the rules of the board, and if the rangers' actions were appropriate in this regard. The second is to turn it into a general referendum on me personally.

The second has been done before. Many people dislike me, and have been quite vocal about it. By offering an "open mic" as it were to the entire board to come in here and comment as witnesses, we will undoubtably get sidetracked onto this path, and rehash a lot of people's negative opinions of me personally.

I'll admit, this does not sound pleasant.

Nor can I defend myself in any way to such an assault. I have no desire to ask the people that might defend me to expose themselves to this audience, as I'm sure most would prefer anonymity.

Ultimately, the jury can do whatever they want I suppose.

I would request SF not be allowed in this thread for any reason, though.

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Rebecca
Post subject: Re: Hearing on disruption of the Symposium Forum against halplm
Posted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 4:18 pm
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No one can post in this forum unless they are on a jury.

The members of the other jury are not to post in here under any condition.


Estel asked that the members of the board PM the jurors.


Essentially, she's asking for witnesses, which is allowed. At least it seems that way to me. Correct me if I read that wrong.

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Cenedril_Gildinaur
Post subject: Re: Hearing on disruption of the Symposium Forum against halplm
Posted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 4:21 pm
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halplm wrote:
There are two paths this hearing can take. The first is for the jury to decide my guilt or innocence with regards to the rules of the board, and if the rangers' actions were appropriate in this regard. The second is to turn it into a general referendum on me personally.
Halplm, I'm going to decide just the case. Please do not try to alienate the jury while trying to make your case.
Rebecca wrote:
Essentially, she's asking for witnesses, which is allowed. At least it seems that way to me. Correct me if I read that wrong.
That's the way I perceive it.

Given that this is about a disruption caused, it would be good to verify that there have been complaints about the disruption.

Not that complaints or their absence alone prove or disprove disruption, but complaints or their absence do support proving or disproving a disruption.

Last edited by Cenedril_Gildinaur on Tue 27 Jan , 2009 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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halplm
Post subject: Re: Hearing on disruption of the Symposium Forum against halplm
Posted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 4:22 pm
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No attempt at alienation was intended.

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Estel
Post subject: Re: Hearing on disruption of the Symposium Forum against halplm
Posted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 5:30 pm
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Quote:
and if the rangers' actions were appropriate in this regard
We are not here to judge the Rangers. If you are found innocent of the violations, that will be the time to ask whether they should have acted, whether or not they overreacted, and if so, what penalties they should face. That would be a whole other hearing with a whole new set of jurors. The current jurors job is to listen to evidence and witnesses regarding the current hearing, which is "Hearing on Disruption of the Symposium Forum against halplm"


I was, indeed, asking for witnesses.

I was not asking for people to come in and make general comments or a referendum against you Hal.

Because you and the rangers dispute what occurred, the only way to verify if what the rangers did was necessary or not, which is to say, whether or not you may have violated rules of the charter, is to bring in witnesses.


If the rest of the Jurors agree, the witnesses will be questioned as such:

Each witness who comes forward will be asked a set of questions, in which it will be endevoured to have the answers simply be yes, no or maybe.

Personal accounts of how people felt will not, in most cases, be asked for, and if offered, will be deleted.

Please feel free to ask people to come forward who will speak for you. They will not be attacked, nor questioned in a manner any different to any other witness.


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halplm
Post subject: Re: Hearing on disruption of the Symposium Forum against halplm
Posted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 6:23 pm
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Thanks for the Clarification, Estel.

I just find the line of thought about "how many people complained" to be a bit misleading with respect to guilt or innocence.

ETA: I will attempt to answer your questions sometime today, but it will probably be late tonight.

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Estel
Post subject: Re: Hearing on disruption of the Symposium Forum against halplm
Posted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 6:36 pm
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Sorry about that. I'm trying to be clear, but I've been cleaning today as well and I think all the chemicals went to my brain. My head is certainly not working :nerd:

The line "How many people complained" is a reference to the number of times the Rangers, you or SF were contacted in reference to the occurrences in the symposium. As one of the charges laid is that posters felt that they were being disturbed by a personal dispute in a forum outside the Bikeracks, verification that people were actually disturbed is necessary.

Last edited by Estel on Tue 27 Jan , 2009 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Angbasdil
Post subject: Re: Hearing on disruption of the Symposium Forum against halplm
Posted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 6:39 pm
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hal,

An offline court would have the luxury of precedent to guide them in defining things like "disruptive" and "harassment". We don't have that here, so by necessity we'll have to make some of this up as we go. An imperfect system, I know, but it's all we got. And it's more than most boards got.

With that in mind, the number of people affected may be very important in determining whether something constitutes a disruption. It's not the only factor by any means, but I believe it may be relevant. We'll gather the facts and see.


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halplm
Post subject: Re: Hearing on disruption of the Symposium Forum against halplm
Posted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 6:44 pm
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Well, that is a valid point, ang, but I would point out that 10 people jumping into a thread to point out how disruptive it is might be more of a "disruption" than was originally there :).

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Angbasdil
Post subject: Re: Hearing on disruption of the Symposium Forum against halplm
Posted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 7:33 pm
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That's also a valid point, and one I think I've made in the past. But that doesn't completely negate the first point. Both actions could be disruptive, and both parties could be in the wrong.

It's not necessarily an either/or situation. "Both" and "none" are also possibilities.


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halplm
Post subject: Re: Hearing on disruption of the Symposium Forum against halplm
Posted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 7:56 pm
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True enough, Ang.
Estel wrote:
The line "How many people complained" is a reference to the number of times the Rangers, you or SF were contacted in reference to the occurrences in the symposium. As one of the charges laid is that posters felt that they were being disturbed by a personal dispute in a forum outside the Bikeracks, verification that people were actually disturbed is necessary.
Is that one of the charges? I'm not trying to be obtuse here, I still honestly have some confusion over what the charges are.

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halplm
Post subject: Re: Hearing on disruption of the Symposium Forum against halplm
Posted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 9:22 pm
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Are the jurors intersted in all the crap SF has done that has caused it to be impossible for some to engage in actual discussion of ideas with him? Apparently some people think such things are relevant.

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Angbasdil
Post subject: Re: Hearing on disruption of the Symposium Forum against halplm
Posted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 9:43 pm
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Speaking only for myself, I'm only interested if you can explain why SF's actions somehow mitigate your own. Simply "spreading the blame around" won't hold any water with me (see the either/or thing above.) Neither will claiming that he "baited" you, since you're still responsible for whether or not you take the bait.

But if you can explain how SF's actions are relevant to your own innocence, then yes, I'm interested.


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halplm
Post subject: Re: Hearing on disruption of the Symposium Forum against halplm
Posted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 9:46 pm
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They aren't, just as mine aren't relevant to his, but apparently there is still some reason this information is vitally important to some people.

If the jurors wish can present a very detailed representation of how we got to where we are. This is likely to not change anything or have any bearing on the hearing itself, but I don't want to withold desired information.

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Estel
Post subject: Re: Hearing on disruption of the Symposium Forum against halplm
Posted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 10:18 pm
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ellienor has volunteered as a witness.


As for me - I'm done with this until tomorrow. Chica needs some sleep preciousssss.


Hal, the specific charges that I've asked questions about are listed in the top of the same post where the questions are asked.


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halplm
Post subject: Re: Hearing on disruption of the Symposium Forum against halplm
Posted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 11:00 pm
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Estel, your list of charges does not match the ranger's list of charges, and the charge you mentioned recently is not there either.

Again, I'm not trying to be difficult, but there should be a definitive list of charges in the opening post, that is clear and understandable by all involved, or it can be changed at any time to make arguments more or less effective. CG had a different interpretation of the charges that were originally posted.

If everyone has a different idea of what is being done in this hearing, we can't do anything.

I'm very very frustrated at this, and don't know what should be done.

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Estel
Post subject: Re: Hearing on disruption of the Symposium Forum against halplm
Posted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 11:07 pm
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I'll email the Rangers and ask them to make their charges specific to the Charter in order to make things more clear. My interpretation of what they posted were the violations I listed, and I admit that they seemed pretty clear to me, but :shrug:

I agree that, although we have the jurors in place, the hearing cannot begin until the charges the hearing was called on are made clear to each of us.

If the charges are not clear to any of the other jurors as well as Hal, could you post, as Hal has done.

Again, I'll email the Rangers to clarify the charges.

I would suggest that none of us bother posting until it has been done, as it would be empty and useless to do so at this time - with the exception of Jurors who need to say that they need clarification, that is.



Shall we just call ourselves in recess for the time being? :blackeye: :P


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