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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan , 2009 9:15 pm 
Filthy darwinian hobbit
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I received a PM in response to Estel's questions and tried to pass it on to the other Jurors but my 'To' and 'BCC' boxes were set to 'None'. I couldn't insert a user name into either box. I have passed it to Lurker by clicking on his PM button to circulate to you.
Anyone have any ideas about this bug? I had sent out PM's a bit earlier successfully.

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan , 2009 11:21 pm 
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Both of those boxes will be set to "None" until you add names to them. The PM feature in phpbb3 is quite a bit different from our old one.

In the top left, you'll see "Usernames:" with a blank box underneath. You can type the name of the member to whom you wish to send it in that box. You can even type multiple names, with each name on a separate line. When you have all the names, find the "Add[To]" button underneath the "Groups" box and click it. The names should all appear in your "To" field. You can even repeat to add yet more names, if you wish.

Does it work now?

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PostPosted: Thu 29 Jan , 2009 12:15 am 
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I still intend to answer Estel's questions, but have not had time. Not sure when I will, as I expect it will be a long effort.

I also want to defend myself against the ranger's characterizations of events, but that might be counterproductive and annoying to read as it would be very very long. Perhaps it would be better to simply say I strongly object to their characterization of events, and along with my answers to Estel's questions that might cover it.

At which point, I think the only thing I can do is ask the jury to question me on any specifics they need to know.

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PostPosted: Thu 29 Jan , 2009 12:19 am 
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part of Estel's post that the Rangers answered wrote:
A number of questions for the Rangers:

You may answer these questions individually or as a group.

These questions are for the Rangers only. If you are not a Ranger, please do not comment on them, or on the Rangers answers.

If anyone who is not a Ranger comments on their questions or answers, I will ask the Rangers to remove that response in order to keep the information clear.

Hal, there is a set of questions for you as well. Please do not comment or respond on the Rangers questions or answers. You will have a chance to refute or defend against them at a later time.

These questions are for information gathering purposes only.

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PostPosted: Thu 29 Jan , 2009 12:30 am 
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Thanks Marco. I hadn't spotted the 'add to' box. I realise my other PM's were replies. I think it worked now.

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PostPosted: Thu 29 Jan , 2009 12:31 am 
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Yes, that's what I was discussing, how I will object to them.

A point by point rebuttal seems overly detailed, so I'm not sure it would be worth it.

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PostPosted: Thu 29 Jan , 2009 12:55 am 
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hal,
I had planned on asking for "closing statements" from any who desired to give them before we began deliberations. That should give you opportunity to defend yourself against anything you consider to be a mischaracterization. But for now we need to stay on some sort of track, and so let's answer Estel's questions before we get lost in any sort of back and forth.

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PostPosted: Thu 29 Jan , 2009 10:22 pm 
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Yes please.

I asked the questions so that we could be as organized as possible and have the ability to look at all answers in context to each other.

I understand that people are busy in RL (myself included for once), so why don't we give it till Monday for the questions to be answered by Hal and by the board. On Monday, we'll lock the board question thread, and start the week talking about questioning witnesses, both for or against Hal, asking Hal any further questions we may have, and asking the rangers any further questions we have. Once everyone is comfortable with that stage, we can ask for closing statements and begin deliberations.

Does that sound alright to everyone?




Thanks :)


One more thing - Rebecca or any other rangers in the vicinity, please do edit. I did post specifically that comments on other peoples answers should not be made until the jury had asked for those comments. The jury has not asked for those comments as of yet.

Hal, please do not comment on the Rangers answers until the jury asks you to, and don't worry, we will ask you to. Once you post your answers, no comments will be allowed to be made on them until the Jury asks either, and we will be as strict on anyone who comments as we are on you for commenting.

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Last edited by Estel on Thu 29 Jan , 2009 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu 29 Jan , 2009 10:32 pm 
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Estel, I'm not really sure what you'd like us to edit.

My posts? Other people's posts? I'm not really comfortable editing their posts, but I could split them if you really want me to...just not sure what.

edit: not comfortable editing since I don't know what you'd like edited. :blackeye: Plus I'd rather give people a chance to edit their own posts first.

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PostPosted: Thu 29 Jan , 2009 10:38 pm 
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Estel I understand everyone being busy. Believe me I do.
And I think this should go along smoothly, but there are a couple of things to consider.
Anyone being brought to a hearing is sequestered in the Bike Racks for the duration. Which is kind of limbo I guess. To be fair to anyone being brought to a hearing, we should proceed as expeditiously as possible.

Another issue is the ranger pool. We have a couple of people in the jury who are also awaiting turns as rangers and we do need new rangers asap.

Can we proceed without breaking and just try to insure that everything is being done fairly?

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PostPosted: Thu 29 Jan , 2009 10:50 pm 
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Holby - you'll have to ask Hal about that. Right now, he's the only person involved in this who has not yet answered his set of questions. I was trying to give him the time he needed.

I will say this now, in order to be fair to everyone however, I will not be available on Friday night, my time, Saturday night, my time, or Sunday morning, my time. I also won't be available when I'm sleeping :P


Everyone is trying to get through this as quickly as possible, but we do need to go slow enough to be thorough and just, and it does need to be understood that people have lives outside of b77.

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PostPosted: Thu 29 Jan , 2009 10:52 pm 
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How about instead of waiting until Monday, we just wait until hal is finished? If he wants to take longer, it's just extending his posting restrictions, so why not leave it up to him?


Is there anything the jury can work on while you wait?

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PostPosted: Thu 29 Jan , 2009 11:32 pm 
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I, for one, would really like to hear hal's answers before we proceed.
Those answers will be a big factor in where I think we should go next.

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PostPosted: Fri 30 Jan , 2009 8:39 am 
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I still intend to answer, I just haven't had time.

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Last edited by halplm on Sat 31 Jan , 2009 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri 30 Jan , 2009 11:37 am 
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hal,
I'll reread the questions with that in mind.

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PostPosted: Fri 30 Jan , 2009 2:01 pm 
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This is to remind everyone that we have a timeline for this hearing. Please manage your time accordingly so as to give time for the jury to deliberate. Thanks.

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PostPosted: Fri 30 Jan , 2009 5:56 pm 
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Can that timeline be posted please?

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PostPosted: Fri 30 Jan , 2009 8:36 pm 
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Quote:
1. In relation to Article 9 - Persistent posting of objectionable content.

First, How many board members PMed or emailed you to object about your posts, how many multiple complaints there were, and how many board posted complaints there were?


(Aside: While answering these questions, I was referring to the arguments between SF and myself, which is really what the second section of questions was asking, but I was confused. In reference to "objectionable content." I have received no PM, email, or board comment accusing me of posting objectionable content. The first I heard of such an accusation was when it was listed here as something I had violated.)

I had one PM conversation with jewelsong where we each sent two PMs. This was less an objection and more of a discussion. I received no other PMs or emails from when I started posting again, until Holbytla suspended my posting rights.

For board posted complaints, I am using the most liberal definition I can think of. If somone commented on the what was happening in the thread, rather than on the topic of the thread, I'll call that a "complaint." Most of the time, this was not aimed at me, but at the "thread," "discussion," or at myself and SF both. I have not included complaints against SF specificially.

I found 18 comments or complaints in the symposium (and those split off into the bikeracks) over 4 days leading up to the suspension of posting rights.

There were also a couple of discussions in the contact a ranger thread in the business room forum totally about 80 posts, many of which were mine. I'm not sure how you would characterize this, as there was a lot of complaining about me, but it was in a discussion on the topic of what was going on. All of these posts are in the bikeracks if you would like to read through them.

Quote:
Second, How many warnings, both in PM, email and out in the threads, did you receive before your Symposium permissions were revoked?


None by PM, none by email. There were no official warnings on the board. There were many threats by HOlbytla that he was going to "do something" if we didn't do as he said. This is what led to me asking him to step down as a ranger which led to the discussions mentioned above. He was more interested in imposing his will on the board, than in issuing official warnings and such, and doing things by the book.

Quote:
Third, once your permissions for the Symposium were revoked how many warnings, both in PM, email and out in the threads, did you recieve before you were limited to the Bikeracks?


None in any place. Holby's initial post about the suspension of posting rights said "further action would be taken" if SF and I took our arguments outside of the symposium, but this did not happen. My restriction to the bikeracks was in response to calling the rangers on their abuse of power, which resulted in them confining me to the bikeracks with no warning, and without explanation.

Quote:
Forth, as this is a member moderated board, how many and what warnings/complaints/comments did you receive through PM, Email or on the board itself other than from the poster you were in dispute with and other than Rangers?


Half of the 18 comments were from non-rangers. In the discussion in the business room, it was probably about the same. Most of all of these were from the same 3 or 4 that has wanted action taken against me for some time.

Quote:
2. In relation to Article 2, Members Rights and Responsibilities

Violation of the right for members to post free of disruptions caused by the personal disputes of others.

First, How many board members PMed or emailed you to object about the ongoing dispute between you and SF, how many multiple complaints there were, and how many board posted complaints there were?


At first I was a bit confused as this seems the same question as above. Everything I talked about in the answers to the first section seems to apply here, as that is what people were complaining about/discussing. I would refer you to that section for this answer.

Quote:
3. In Relation to Article 2, Members Rights and Responsibilites

Violation to refrain from using PM capability to harass other members of the board

First, How many members recieving the PMs emailed, PMed or posted complaints to you about receiving the PM?


4 PMs, no email, and I found 2 posts complaining about it, but I don't know where all to look, so I might have missed some.


Quote:
Second, Was a warning given to you, either on the board, by email or through PM before the PM privileges were revoked?


No.

Quote:

Third, what is the exact number of members who you PMed


50, including myself, so 49 I guess.



Quote:
4. In Relation to Article 5,]¶1: The Bike Racks Forum

First, a violation may have occured when threads were started in response to threads outside the Bikeracks Forum. How many of these threads did you start?
Were any of these threads started because of splitting action taken by the Rangers? If so, please link to those you did start, and those that were started by splitting, separating them into two categories listed as such.


I'm curious to know what violation may have occured, but I will list the threads in the bikeracks that I started after I was confined there. Everything else was split or moved there. The only one that was not started there, but was moved there, was this one:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5983" target="_blank

The following were started there:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5991" target="_blank
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5989" target="_blank
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5988" target="_blank
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5993" target="_blank
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=6002" target="_blank
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5985" target="_blank
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5990" target="_blank
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5987" target="_blank


Quote:
Second, A violation of use may have occured when multiple threads dealing with the same issue were started.
How many of these threads did you start?
Were any of these threads started because of splitting action taken by the Rangers? If so, please link to those you did start, and those that were started by splitting, separating them into two categories listed as such.


No such threads exist other than threads dealing with ranger "Abuse of Power." At no point has more than one of these threads been unlocked. Most were name changes of previous threads as I was not allowed to start new ones after the old one was locked... which is of course an abuse of power in itself.

Quote:
Third, a violation of use may have occured when multiple threads were started that did not involve resolution of disputes.
How many of these threads did you start?
Were any of these threads started because of splitting action taken by the Rangers? If so, please link to those you did start, and those that were started by splitting, separating them into two categories listed as such.


I have not started any threads to resolve disputes, so all of them I guess fall into your categorization.

Quote:
Forth, Did you recieve a warning, either on the board, by email or through PM before posting privileges were revoked?


I'm not sure which posting privileges you are referring to. If it was the inability for me to start new threads, Holby threatened to remove my ability to post at all, and Rebecca said they'd try to find a way to prevent me from starting new threads. There was no warning (or new threads started) between Rebecca's warning, and River's removing my privileges.




That's the best I can do, and I feel obligated to point out again, that I'm not sure all of this is relevant, and there are other things that are highly relevant IMHO.

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PostPosted: Fri 30 Jan , 2009 8:50 pm 
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Thanks hal.

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PostPosted: Fri 30 Jan , 2009 11:34 pm 
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Estel wrote:
Can that timeline be posted please?


We're on Day 6 now of this hearing.
You must try to reach a decision within ten days so that the posting rights of the member are not unnecessarily curtailed. Article 5 54

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