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PostPosted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 11:18 am 
Far out
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I do agree that the guilt question is more or less settled in this case. sf has stated that he realizes his actions were disruptive and discouraged others from posting, and that he's sorry for that. I have one question, as I'm not sure I've been reading too much into it - were you indicating that this um, "episode" will have an effect on your behavior in the future, sf?


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PostPosted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 12:20 pm 
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Farawen
I think in the future, I would do well to remember that I do not have to repeat the same point over and over to make my point clear.

In hindsight, I never intended to disrupt the Board or discourage others from posting -- but I can look back now with some distance between the event and see that was the result. Its the whole forest and the trees thing.

In the future, if I have an issue with a poster, I would make my point, engage in discussion, and be mindful of not repeating myself and dominating the thread.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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PostPosted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 12:29 pm 
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I edited the first post.
Rebecca wrote:
As it stands now, sauronsfinger has not engaged in any actions that would qualify him for a banning under the current Charter. Our actions were taken in what we believed would best prevent him from disrupting Board77 and it's membership.


edit:
I also fixed the section that sf mentioned earlier, to replace it with the wording Holby used.

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PostPosted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 12:36 pm 
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Here is the evidence I spoke about yesterday. It is my PM to Voronwe on Hall of Fire which I believe is the motivation of Halplm to go on this crusade against me on B77.

=============================================
At the request of Voronwe I have removed the PM exchange made on the HoF. It was private correspondance between him and sf and Voronwe never gave permission for it to be sent up in the open. sf, if you want to post private correspondance in an open place the ethical thing to do is obtain permission. If you still want to present this evidence, please get in touch with Voronwe.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


Last edited by Riverthalos on Tue 27 Jan , 2009 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ethics


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PostPosted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 5:41 pm 
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I'm here. I read sf's post above.

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PostPosted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 6:04 pm 
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Thank you, River. I should have chimed in earlier saying that posting the actual private correspondence and/or the post by hal was not necessary, imo, and, to do so, in fact, was somehow not right. (A good rule of thumb is that you should not post the contents of PMs without getting the express consent of the other person or persons involved.)

I did read your earlier post, sf.


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PostPosted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 6:14 pm 
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Lalaith
Since this is a hearing based on evidence, I felt that nobody should be asked to simply believe my explaination about this incident without the evidence introduced.
In another thread Jewelsong confronted Halplm about this very thing asking at least twice "is this true?" and got no answer. People have a right to know
a) if I am telling the truth, and
b) if the actual facts support my explaination of the events

It is my understanding that a person has the right to their own writings, writings in a public forum like a post which are routinely reproduced, and writings made to them that are not specifically asked to be kept confidential.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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PostPosted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 6:20 pm 
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Regarding the removing of the important evidence which proves my case.... doesn't that prevent me from offering a complete defense here?

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PostPosted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 6:32 pm 
The Grey Amaretto as Supermega-awesome Proud Heretic Girl
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I don't think so, sf. I believe you, actually, so there is no need (on my behalf) for you to post your PMs with Voronwe or the post from hal. (This is a messageboard, not a court of law.) I just think you should always ask the other person involved in your PMs before posting their contents here, especially if it's their writings and not yours--and especially if it's a delicate matter. It'd be one thing to post, "SF told me in a PM that it was your birthday today, so Happy Birthday!" It's another thing entirely to divulge private communication of a disciplinary nature from another board.

But if the other jurors feel differently and want to see the evidence for themselves, then we'll go from there.


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PostPosted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 6:39 pm 
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All I was trying to do was to provide actual verification for the claims I made.

Evidence is what has been asked for. I simply provided it.

I honestly thought I had a write to my own writings or to writings to me that did not specifically ask to be kept confidential.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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PostPosted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 6:41 pm 
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I think sf had the right to post the pm from halplm. The pm was sent to sf and became his "property" to do with as he chose, particularly under the circumstances. However, I suppose it could have been sent privately to us, the jurors. I will certainly abide by the decision of my fellow jurors on this matter.

The correspondance with Voronwe was different. As a courtesy if nothing else, sf should have asked Voronwe's permission. Not a serious matter, IMHO.

eta: Lalaith, got your pm just as I hit "submit" on this post.

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PostPosted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 7:09 pm 
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The way that I see it, we are judging this case based on what happened at b77. I, personally, do not see any reason to refer to events at HoF or any other messageboard, including PMs on HoF, when making our judgment. Our power as a jury is limited to b77, and I believe that the scope of this hearing should reflect that. But I am up for discussing that if anyone feels otherwise.


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PostPosted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 7:12 pm 
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All I was trying to do was to provide a viable explaination for the cause of all this on B77 on January 19.

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PostPosted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 8:16 pm 
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I think it very well could be relevant. I just went and checked at HoF and hal hasn't posted there since Jan. 17. Now who knows what's going on but perhaps he wasn't able to carry on the fight with sf there so he moved it to b77? I don't know, I'm only pondering and speculating. But it does seem like an argument started at HoF and was moved over here.

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PostPosted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 8:19 pm 
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sauronsfinger wrote:
Farawen
I think in the future, I would do well to remember that I do not have to repeat the same point over and over to make my point clear.

In hindsight, I never intended to disrupt the Board or discourage others from posting -- but I can look back now with some distance between the event and see that was the result. Its the whole forest and the trees thing.

In the future, if I have an issue with a poster, I would make my point, engage in discussion, and be mindful of not repeating myself and dominating the thread.


Do you even think this is possible with hal? I don't see how you two will ever be able to have civil discourse.

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PostPosted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 8:28 pm 
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Eruname - I think it is partly a matter of frequency, as others have pointed out. Several have noted the rapid fire exchange we both get caught up in. I am going to make a real effort to moderate that.

If you look at a recent exchange on the discussion of the Klan in the South between CG and I, it gives you hope. We were able to discusss a subject we disagree on and do it civily and politely. That is what I hope to be able to do with everyone.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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PostPosted: Tue 27 Jan , 2009 10:04 pm 
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I have discussed the matter with the authorities at HofFire. I can post the PM I sent on January 17th sent alerting them to the problem.

If any jury member would like the PM that was pulled from here, but previously discussed yesterday, I can send it to you via a PM right here on B77.

Then you can judge for yourself what role it may have played.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan , 2009 12:26 am 
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I have sent an e-mail to the group.

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan , 2009 4:30 pm 
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sauronsfinger wrote:
Eruname - I think it is partly a matter of frequency, as others have pointed out. Several have noted the rapid fire exchange we both get caught up in. I am going to make a real effort to moderate that.

If you look at a recent exchange on the discussion of the Klan in the South between CG and I, it gives you hope. We were able to discusss a subject we disagree on and do it civily and politely. That is what I hope to be able to do with everyone.


I thought you and CG weren't supposed to be posting to or about each other? It seems that's changed through the mediation? Do you think something similar could be beneficial for you and hal?

Basically I'm concerned about the future. We all don't want to keep travelling down this road again and again.

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jan , 2009 4:49 pm 
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I do not know if any one thing has changed except I think that both he and I are trying NOT to get into trouble with each other. And thats a good thing.

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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. - John Rogers


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