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PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb , 2009 7:37 pm 
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If the members of the jury agrees, I am lifting the 24 hours posting ban on the verdict since it is creating confusion among members of the board reading this hearing. Plus the fact, that the SF has already asked for an appeal. I would like to remind any juror who disagreed with this verdit that they can post their minority report.

I do prefer that a member of the jury post the verdict and not the defendant. Thanks.

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PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb , 2009 7:43 pm 
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sorry but due to popular demand I did it as you were posting...


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PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb , 2009 7:43 pm 
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SF,

I have asked one of the Rangers to delete your post since I do believe that it is the jury's responsibility not you as a defendant to do that. Thanks.

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PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb , 2009 7:45 pm 
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Look, this whole appeal thing with Rangers already involved in other juries and stuff..... how about if we just do this ---

The person I think is really fit to handle this is Jnyusa. She is well aware of all parts of the Charter since she wrote much of it. She is fair. She is bright. She knows her stuff.

I will give up all rights to a formal appeal if you just ask her to review my main point about the hearing and the post by the Loremaster telling me that I can only get the two weeks and no more.

That will make it fast, efficient and put an end to it.

And I will abide by whatever she says.


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PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb , 2009 7:55 pm 
bioalchemist
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Okay. I've just gotten some clarification. You don't get to pick your appeals panel. I am going to start contacting former Rangers until I find four who are willing to deal with this.

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PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb , 2009 8:07 pm 
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There is a lot of confusion about this and maybe I can clear some of it up.

This was never a case of if/or. When we restricted your posting rights we were obliged to call a hearing.
That was necessary because our actions, according to the charter, had to be justified.
Given that the process was going to take close to two weeks anyway, there was no way you were going to get less than that. We could have just said we were restricting your rights for a week, and that term would have been over before the process was resolved, and would have essentially made a hearing a moot point.
Once the process started, the decision was in the hands of the jury to revoke our decision, agree with it, or add to it as they saw fit.

This wasn't a case of let's just lock him in the Bike Racks for a week to cool off. This was a case of someone repeating disruptive behavior, hence the stiffer request from us and the necessary hearing which opened the door for whatever the jury deemed suitable.

You have the right to appeal the decision and or the sentence, but this is not a case of bad info putting you in greater jeopardy. The hearing was going to happen and the jury was going to rule. Which they did.

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PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb , 2009 8:11 pm 
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From Jewelsong


Quote:
SF, I honestly think that the decision was fair and the best thing for you to do would be to simply Let It Go.

Honestly.


You might be right. And I might just do that. Before I decide, it would be helpful to know one thing:

The three Rangers decided on a two week suspension. The jury decided on almost three times that plus other restrictions. When the Rangers decided they did not have the advantage of seeing the Hall of Fire post from Hal which started him on his revenge. The jury did.

Why did the jury see fit to give me almost three times the penalty that the Rangers did when they had information which explained what motivated all this?

That would really help me make my decision.


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PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb , 2009 8:13 pm 
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Holby - why then did the Loremaster tell me that two weeks was the maximum I could get when I asked?

Is not the Loremaster there for purposes and rulings just like that?


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PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb , 2009 8:19 pm 
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The Loremaster is there to interpret the charter as needed. No one ever said the Loremaster was perfect.
Regardless of who said what, it had no bearing on this. The hearing was going to take place and the jury was going to determine what to do.

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PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb , 2009 8:25 pm 
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viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5979" target="_blank

This is the thread where the 2 weeks suspension was announced.

Here is each and every word in it:
=======================================================

Based on observations and unsolicited feedback from the members at large, the rangers have decided to suspend the posting rights of halplm and Sauronsfinger from the Symposium for a period of two weeks.

While there has been no one instance that has warranted such suspension of posting rights, the overall behavior of these two and the disruption to the board leaves us with no choice. They have both been asked repeatedly by the members and rangers to consider the rest of the board and desist, but have failed to comply.

Their posting behavior of late has amounted to nothing more than two people taking over multiple threads with their arguments, and making it very difficult for the rest of the board to carry on any kind of fruitful discussion.

This measure is not being taken in the hopes that any kind of resolution will come of this, but merely to give the rest of the board some peace from the endless arguments.

Halplm and Sauronsfinger are free to use the rest of the board. However, if the arguments and disruptive behavior continues to the other forums, further action will be taken.

The rangers have avoided doing this as much as possible and have tried to send warnings and advice, but we have been essentially forced to act on behalf of the board. The amount of complaints and feedback from the membership has been too great to ignore.

The suspensions are effective immediately and will last until 4:00 pm EST 6 February 2009.
==========================================

I am sorry it is not highlighted but my QUOTE feature is not present here for some unexplainable reason today.

Please notice that there is absolutely no mention of a hearing being called at all. The decision is presented as cut and dry.

If you read the rest of the thread, the first mentionb of a hearing is Halplm asking for one. Then I ask for one. Then the hearing discussion follows later.

It is clear that the hearings were called for by Halplm and myself.

So much of this comes down to my intentions in that hearing. I was under the impression that
1- it was my hearing called by myself under my rights under the Charter
2- the two week penalty was the maximum I could get
3- the jury could get rid of the penalty, lessen the penalty or affirm the penatly

If you need more documentation, I will be happy to provide it.


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PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb , 2009 8:30 pm 
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Yes that is obviously accurate, but that is only part of the story.
The rangers have x amount of days to call a hearing and we did so.

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PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb , 2009 8:36 pm 
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I know I asked for a hearing.

Beyond that, nobody knows what you would have done. Nobody.

Please go back and read that post of yours announcing the suspensions. It is a cut and dried announcement.

Look.... I am not demanding perfection here.
I am not attacking or belitting Rangers.
I am not attacking or belittling Jury Members.
I am not attacking or belittling the Loremanster.

I realize that everyone just is trying to do their job and the whole thing - me included - is a major pain in the ass.

All I am saying here is that
1- I thought it was my hearing and the post from Holby shows that it was reasonable for me to think so
2- I asked twice about the penalty from the Loremaster and was told that two weeks was the maximum
3- only then, after that assurance, did I proceed with any defense and presentation of my case

Is this unreasonable? Is that worth any consideration at all?


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PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb , 2009 8:38 pm 
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All I can tell you is that you have the right to appeal the decision.
The fact is that there was going to be a hearing whether it was you or us that called for it and the jury was going to decide to uphold what we said, lessened it or added to it.

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PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb , 2009 8:40 pm 
bioalchemist
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You and hal demanded hearings, yes. You were entitled to them. And in compliance with the Charter, holby, Rebecca, and I called for hearings against each of you within three days of exercising special/emergency/whatever they're called powers. You and hal were both thrown to the mercies of your juries. hal's jury isn't done yet. Yours is.

It is wise to be careful what you wish for.

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PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb , 2009 8:40 pm 
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I'm sorry you didn't fully realize the implications of holding a hearing.

You guys demanded a hearing and you got one. End of story.

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PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb , 2009 8:42 pm 
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You called a hearing because we asked for it. So now we have established that.

And I could have walked away from it saying "forget about it" and everyone would have been glad to go fishing.

Why is this so hard to admit?


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PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb , 2009 8:42 pm 
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There would have been a hearing sf. You've hacked off a lot of people. You've gotten a fair deal here considering the disruption this board has been subjected to.

To make it official:

We the Jury for the Hearing on disruption of the Symposium against sauronsfinger make the following finding and sentence.

That sauronsfinger's actions were in fact in violation of the charter that states that every member has the right to address personal disputes in the Bike Racks forum and, in other forums, to post free of disruptions caused by the personal disputes of others. Furthermore, sauronsfinger has failed to abide by the spirit of the charter which states that members have the right "to be treated with courtesy and respect by all posters regardless of their status, and [have] the responsibility to treat others likewise."

That from the date of this decision sauronsfinger is sentenced to a 30
day suspension from posting in the Symposium forum.

That from the date of this decision sauronsfinger is not to post to or
in response to anything posted by halplm for 90 days.

That for the next six months sauronsfinger is not to be included in
the Ranger pool.

It is the belief of this jury that every member of b77 has the ability
to add value to our message board. Our hope as a jury is in time to
see sauronsfinger fully restored, and for him to be an active,
positive member of the community. We appreciate sauronsfinger's
cooperation and contrition and look forward to seeing him on the boards.

.
.


I suggest this thread be locked as the hearing has been concluded. I would think an appeal should happen elsewhere.

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PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb , 2009 8:44 pm 
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And to this point, no member of jury has offered any explaination of the reason for the tripling of the penalty.

That would be most appreciated and welcome.

And I still cannnot edit this thread in any way. :bang:


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PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb , 2009 8:44 pm 
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Yes there is no longer any point to this thread. We'll leave it here for a bit and then move it to the historical threads area after the proper editing outlined in the charter.

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PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb , 2009 8:45 pm 
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Extending from 14 to 30 is not tripling.

I'm going to lock this thread, I agree with Eru. Appeal the decision elsewhere if you must.

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