board77

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Opening Board77 - the last decision we'll take

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Should we open the board now?
Keep it "invite only", but approve everyone who registers
  
3% [ 1 ]
Yes. Open it to everyone - even people who'll just troll
  
6% [ 2 ]
Let it wait 2-3 days, but open it
  
0% [ 0 ]
Let it wait 2-3 weeks, but open it
  
6% [ 2 ]
Keep it closed, but shorten the invite process
  
52% [ 17 ]
No Change. Keep it as it is now.
  
33% [ 11 ]
Total votes: 33
Author Message
Estel
Post subject: Opening Board77 - the last decision we'll take
Posted: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 4:44 am
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This thread was active during the upheavals on TORC and here at board77 in the first few months of 2005. Please remember as you read that many posts were made in the heat of the moment. Also, please note that this thread is no longer active; the board has moved on from these events. However, the members of board77 have decided that to delete these threads would be counter to our principles of transparency and openness.

Text in blue inserted by b77 Ranger, 26 June 05


********

edit/add (Alandriel Mar06) according to the last posts in this thread this is the LAST decision we'll take. Since we currently have many other priorities this is temporarily locked. Thank you for your understanding.

~~~~~~~~~~


Yes, I know there is a previous thread about this topic, but I thought it best to get a fresh start and some new perspectives. Perhaps people will be able to be more objective this time around.

I'm going to let the discussion go for a minimum of 2 weeks, but more likely a full month before I put up a poll. The recent events have caused quite a passion in a few people, and I think we should give the discussion time to settle out of passion and into clear headed thinking before we start doing votes on this.



So, the questions basically are:

  • 1. Should Board77 be opened

    2.
    - a. If yes, when should Board77 be opened.
    - b. If no, why not, and in what circumstances would you change your mind?

    3. If yes, in what manner should the board be opened (i.e. Fling open the doors, open it slowly, etc etc)



Alright then - let's hear it :)


Edit: Oh crap Crap CRAP!!!!!

Shit.

I accidently deleted the poll :oops: That's what I get for doing three things at once dammit. I was only meant to edit in another option.

SORRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :(


People will have to recast their votes I'm afraid.

Last edited by Estel on Tue 01 Mar , 2005 2:28 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 4:49 am
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I think you know my opinion. To quote your favorite band:

Tear down the Wall!
Tear down the Wall!

I know that's not very helpful; I'm all out of helpful.


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Sassafras
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Posted: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 4:54 am
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Estel, thanks for doing this.

Up until today I was leaning strongly in favour of a closed board.
Ted's invective, however, and the fact that b77 is now an open secret all over TORC has given me pause.

I don't know why I should care what Jon, Ted or TORC admins/mods think of us, but somehow I do.

At first glance I very much like your suggestion of allowing people to register without a specific invitation ... but keeping the board unviewable to the casual browser.

Back tomorrow with more thoughts. Now it's time for bed.

:)

Edit: Damn it Voronwe, you always manage to sneak in ahead of me. :D
Bloody Dial-up is slower than molasses. :x


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Eruname
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Posted: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 6:00 am
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1. Yes it should be opened.
2. Once we have all of our foundations laid...maybe sometime around our 1 year anniversary.
3. Open it slowly. We shouldn't make a huge deal over the opening. If people find out about it, then they do. We shouldn't actively seek getting people over here, like emailing Jon or IE saying "Now you can take a look!!".
Sass wrote:
I don't know why I should care what Jon, Ted or TORC admins/mods think of us, but somehow I do.
I think we shouldn't react so much to the recent occurences. So what if someone on that other message board doesn't like the fact that we're hiding to protect ourselves. I don't think our reason for opening up should be to try to prove how everyone else has been so wrong about us. TIGG had some good points in the thread in the Turf...about how Jon, Ted, IE, etc. will read into things and find negatives where they want.

We don't have anything to prove or anything to justify to anyone. Let's get this board sorted and strong then open it. We can't deal with possible confrontations if we aren't strong. We are each individually strong but as a whole message board, we still need a lot of hard work.

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laureanna
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Posted: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 7:48 am
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I'm still hurting from what happened on TORC, to me and to others. Part of my hurt was learning that there are people I can't trust. People who will vilify me and those I care about. After being hurt privately by IE, I decided to never post in a thread she posts in. That limited my ability to post considerably, because she's all over the place. Eventually I just stopped posting on TORC at all. Too much hostility in some threads. Complete fluff in others. No longer a place to bare my soul.

This place is a refuge for me. If it is opened to all, IE will come sailing in here all chummy and start posting away. And I will have to leave my friends again.

The only ones who are complaining about this being a closed board are the ones we don't really want in here. So why open it?

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 8:08 am
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I think the board should be opened, and soon.

But if the feeling against this is too strong, I would urge that, at least for a while, we accelerate the invitation process. Revisit TORC, those of us who can, and scour the boards to pick up names that have been forgotten--quiet people who hang back, but who deserve a better place as much as any of us noisy people who get noticed sooner. Vote in an emergency process that lets polls go up at once and run for a shorter time.

Yes, some who have been here from the start are much more wounded than those of us who came later. But we know what it's like to be on the ship as it empties out and settles lower and lower.

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yovargas
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Posted: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 1:01 pm
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If it were up to me the board would be made 100% open right this bloody second. However, laurenna makes an interesting point:

'The only ones who are complaining about this being a closed board are the ones we don't really want in here. So why open it?"

That's not completely true, but it seems to be true enough.


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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 1:07 pm
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I'm going to be a real bore and post the links here to the threads that have discussed this. But thanks to Estel anyways :) for opening a new thread. It was timely and necessary.

However, please I kindly ask the people that have not done so to please read back to those links.

The doors will be opened - one day. That much is clear! It's only a question of WHEN really. And to help in that process please, ALL OF YOU, help in the process.

- Please! Read up (I know it's a a lot but it avoids rehashing many things that have been said and discussed before.)

- Please! Contribute to the ongoing discussions about how this place is run in the many threads you'll find in this forum.

The future of Board 77

previous discussion on Opening B77


'Governance' discussion threads:

Resolution of disputes amongst members and other topics in same thread

Modding - decision thread

Term of office and Admin Eligibility

And a good one to read is also Member apathy

To make this place work, to make it into what you want it to be takes time and effort. Please take it. Rise to the challenge :)

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Farawen
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Posted: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 1:51 pm
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We're pretty much agreed on the fact that we're gonna open up B77 one day. A community on the 'net can only survive with new members joining, horizons expanding, and all that jazz.

But not now. And I'll be blunt and say that frankly, I'd be more than miffed if we opened up this board so shortly after Ted's criticism of this being a closed board. I'm sorry, but many of us are here because "they" told us to pack our bags and move on to another board. And now they get to tell us how to run said board?

I'm sorry for all those left behind (for lack of a better word) back on TORC without any knowledge of this board existing, I really am. I know what it feels like to see your favorite messageboard turn into something that makes you sick to post on and yet you still continue posting because of all the people you care for. But we have to think of what's best for B77 now, not them. Let's email them, let's invite them, and let's do so quickly before they move on, but let's not open our doors before we're ready.

AND EVEN IF WE OPENED UP B77 RIGHT NOW, they still wouldn't know about it, would they? It's not as if all the Ari-Annas out there were just magically sucked into B77 as soon as we canned the invite-only thing. You've heard Ted; we wouldn't be able to post the url on TORC. If we opened up this board now, people like Oreo would register in a second; people like Ari-Anna would still have to be told about it via email.

I am scared for B77. This is my home on the 'net now, we've fought long and hard for this board and I would personally throw things if something happened to it.

Some scenarios:

1) The eclectic Troll Club on TORC, that is, Oreo joining. As of now, we wouldn't be able to deal with that. And you know as well as I do that even being banned once or twice wouldn't stop him. Yes, he'd probably tire of it and stop after a few months or so, but I'll guarantee you that by then he wouldn't be the only one who'd left.

2) The_Angel and other fervently "Pro-TORC and anti-B77" people joining. And in the matter of seconds, this place would be an arena of TORC vs. B77 issues. And we're so unbelievably past that it's not even funny anymore. Sure, there still are some threads discussing TORC issues on here, but that's not what this board is about. As soon as The_Angel et al. registered, it would be such a place again. In other words, back to the Stone Age.

3) The TORC officials monitoring us. I want to be very clear on this, I could give a damn. If Ted wants to read about my cat, my favorite poems and my opinion of TORC, he's more than welcome to. But after that glorious post of his yesterday, we must consider the possibility that he'd read every single bit of stuff people post here about TORC, and that bears the possibility of people becoming uncomfortable talking about TORC on here and wary of posting. And after his calamitous performance yesterday, I'm also absolutely sure that he'd use posts on here against people. In other words, people like Prim, Jny and vison could find themselves banned from TORC one morning because they criticized it on B77 the night before.

Etc.

In short:

We should not open up this board because of something that happened on TORC. Who are we, Delayed Reaction Club?

We need a functioning Troll Patrol/Mod Squad/whatevah before we do.

Ted's post can be read as a challenge, or even a declaration of war. Yes, I'm sorry, but that's the way I read it. If we opened up this place now ("Hey, look! We're not invite-only anymore. Not that we have to prove anything to anybody, but if you want to check B77 out anyway, feel, you know, free") wouldn't we be accepting this challenge?


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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 3:28 pm
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Lets just speed up the invites for now. I DONT want to see the kind of thing that just happened in Manwe happen here all the time. :(

I'm through about being shy about inviting Manwe-ites. I'm going to go start a bunch of Invite threads about the remaining decent people I know right now.

And that includes Ari-Anna, if someone hasn't beaten me to it!

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 5:17 pm
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I'm really struggling with this (to the extent that I actually was up most of the night thinking about it). I want to reiterate that it is not Ted's challenge that is influencing my thinking; frankly, I couldn't give a shit what he thinks. But I really feel badly that there are people who feel excluded and unwanted. I had at one point in the depths of the wee hours considered actually starting my own thread and forcing a vote right away. Fortunately I thought better of that. I also considered just leaving b77 until it opens to the public, to avoid the feeling of being one of the excluders, but I recognize that I would not be able to stay away.

I think Maria has the best idea. Lets work to get all the people here that want to be here for positive reasons, without opening things up to the types of problems that some are worried about.

Though in my heart I really agree with Yovargas. I think we could open it up right now and neutralize any attempt to sabotage us or interfere with our community. But I can see that now is not the time. But I think it will come sooner then some think. I will be pushing to see that that happens (but in a way that doesn't compromise the well-being of people that I care about, like laureanna and Farawen). Fair warning! :D


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Estel
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Posted: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 5:53 pm
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Primula_Baggins wrote:
But if the feeling against this is too strong, I would urge that, at least for a while, we accelerate the invitation process. Revisit TORC, those of us who can, and scour the boards to pick up names that have been forgotten--quiet people who hang back, but who deserve a better place as much as any of us noisy people who get noticed sooner. Vote in an emergency process that lets polls go up at once and run for a shorter time.

You would need a hell of a lot more admins :help: - the work involved in getting just one persons registration approved is not small. This past week, having six or so people needed approval a day, plus bumping up threads for people who's polls are up... it's not easy :oops: . A good idea if you're not the one doing the work, but we've got to think of more than just the people on the outside looking in. :uhoh:

As Alandriel said, there is a lot more to it. If we want to open the boards, or speed up invites, we need to get the governance issues settled completely, and that takes a hell of a lot of work from ALL of us :)


and please please please please please - when doing all these invite threads and polls, think of the admins who are going to have to do the work. I don't have a job yet, so it's not that bad right now cause I make b77 my job. What about in the future, however, when every single admin could be a working person? Don't overload the people you voted in... please!


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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 6:11 pm
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Yes - please!! Do listen to Estel :)

I know you're in a hurry to get a whole bunch of things done, friends invited, this board opened etc.

It does take a bit of time though - patience is hard, but it's also very necessary.

Not everybody has time everyday to spend hours and hours here reading and catching up. Sure, not everybody is interested in everything. Some people have gotten tired and there is a certain 'member apathy' present.

That's why I said - and re-iterate, please do take time to read up, think, forumlate your ideas and then post them. It will be to the greater good of B77 and I hope you can and will do the effort :)

oh! And consider volunteering as an Admin ;)

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 6:24 pm
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I apologize for not considering the extra load on Admins. Of course that has got to be a limiting factor in whatever we decide to do.

I'll gladly volunteer to help out here in whatever way I can, and I'll cultivate patience.

I'm a fundamentally hopeful person who is now (some would say, finally) losing hope about something that matters to me very much--TORC. It's affecting me much more strongly than I expected, and I will try to think two and three times before posting ideas so my judgment has a chance to kick in. It's just--I thought I saw this coming, and yet the grief is so sharp.

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Rodia
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Posted: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 7:41 pm
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Yes, the board should be opened. I'm sick and tired of all this pacing about, arguing, trying to explain ourselves, trying to keep ourselves on the right path, trying to...for fuck's sake.

The board should be opened as soon as

1. We move to our own server (thank you Lidless)
2. We've got the basic admin power/rules worked out
3. We've established a general theme for the board. I still think we should base ourselves around books and literature in general. The Turf and existing forums will still be here.

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Nin
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Posted: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 8:01 pm
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I think the boards should be opnened. I understand it's not now, and I understand why.

We should fix a schedule for "governance issues" - troll patrol, resolution of disputes etc. Admin positions should be rolling, and from then on, conditions should be fixed who could be admin.

Once this is settled - and we have moved to our own server - the boards should be opened without ringing a loud bell around it. Just open them and wait who will arrive. No advertise. Just a change... silently.

This should take a few months still. Until then on TORC, many will have forgotten.

Laureanna - don't be so afraid that the situation might turn like on TORC. As a normal poster, even IE will not be able to chase you - it's her admin position that makes her a problem.

I don't think a general theme is necessary. "Intelligent Tolkien-lovers" does it for me. ;)

That is my wishful thinking. And as I feel crazy tonight: I would volounteer to be admin (if anybody trusts me enough:P)


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truehobbit
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Posted: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 8:23 pm
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Good idea to start this fresh, Estel, and thanks to Alandriel for linking to the old threads. I really hope that this invites new people to take part in creating the future of b77. :)

LOL, I've been feeling like Ro sometime ago: swayed by every new opinion that was posted.
And I hardly remember what views I used to hold in the older threads.

As to opening the board:

- I liked it as a closed board. Not because I don't want some people here, but because of what I also said in the thread on TORC: because of the liberty it gives us to post more private stuff than (presumably) we would on an public board.

- I've also been convinced by the previous arguments (see old threads) that we should open up at some point, so as to become a normal messageboard, and have a better chance for development.

So, what's to be done - are there different ways in which we can open up, or is it just all or nothing?

- I would like the board to be only partially visible for non-members, and I'd like some way to regulate registration (ie not : you enter your e-mail addy and can start posting) - these are totally selfish wishes to retain some privacy, but I have no idea how this could be done in a way that's fair and welcoming to newbies.

- I think the most important task at the moment is to come up with a solution to our governance questions. We said that this would best be done while we are still small, so if people start inviting like crazy now, we really should get on with the process.

On the other hand, it seems to me that only a very small percentage of newbies is interested in taking part in creating the structure of b77 - so, if only one in ten new posters ever get round to voting anyway, maybe we needn't worry about this at all?

- That said, I agree with those who said we shouldn't react to Ted's challenge. Yes, part of me wants to prove to them how daft they are, and just say come and see if you don't believe me. But another part of me thinks that if they won't believe me, they can go to hell, I don't have to prove my innocence to anyone.
Quote:
If we opened up this board now, people like Oreo would register in a second; people like Ari-Anna would still have to be told about it via email.
Excellent point! Part of the problem of being in the "not-cool-enough"-club is that you never know what's up in the first place.

- As to the problem of having people here who might try to upset the board (Oreo, Angel): on the one hand, in some way I think this can't be that bad - we ignore them, we tell them to fuck off, and if that doesn't help, we ban them (we'd need to define when and why and how we bad someone!).
The reason for this is, I don't think I'd have a big problem with that. I've had run-ins with people here, and I'm still on TORC, in spite of there being some jerks there - I think I just am able to put up with such unpleasantness.
On the other hand I'm thinking why should we have to bother with such people in the first place, if we don't have to. Why invite unpleasantness? It's our board, and, to borrow Ted and Jonathan's mantra, if we don't want something we don't have to have it.
(Though, seeing this is their view, basically, might be reason enough to consider a false view. ;) )

For example, Voronwe said he'd deal with Oreo. Ok, yes, I think if Oreo got nothing but trouble or silence from us, he'd not want to post anymore at some point. But until then, we'd be stuck with dealing with him. I don't think I'd mind, but I also don't see why we should have to.
Estel in the Turf wrote:
I don't think flinging open the doors is a good idea. Perhaps doing it slowly - doing it during a time when there isn't some big hullabaloo - not making the boards publically viewable unless a person registers, but giving the ability to people to register and get it without an invite...

call it, turning the lock and opening the door just a crack, rather than flinging the door open

I like that in general. But activating a registration would mean giving the person the right to post, too, wouldn't it?
It would get people inside even before they've seen what's up here.
Maybe we'd need a way to have people register, allow them to see the boards, but not be full members yet? (Like not being able to post before a second registration?)

I don't know - I like all these things in theory, but when I think about putting them in practice, I can't see how they should work.
In fact, I think the only thing that can work is take it easy with the invites for now, don't panic because some people on TORC don't like us, get a structure settled on pronto! and then open up completely like any other messageboard.

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Areanor
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Posted: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 9:13 pm
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HUH??

I come in here after two days absence and this is the first thread I check...

So what has happened?

Ted has complained about us being closed?

So what?

Are we here to please Ted or jump when he whistles?

And I must say, I strongly share Farawen's views.

mumble, mumble,
mumbles off to check out threads....

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MariaHobbit
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Posted: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 9:32 pm
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Sorry, admins. :( :oops:

I didn't think about the work involved in activating new people.

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Farawen
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Posted: Sat 26 Feb , 2005 9:40 pm
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Voronwe_the_Faithful wrote:
But I really feel badly that there are people who feel excluded and unwanted.
That's indeed one of the downsides. I do think it's unfortunate that the existence of B77 is pretty much common knowledge now - people can't feel excluded if they don't know "that board" exists.
Quote:
Fair warning! :D
I hear ya! :D
Prim wrote:
I'm a fundamentally hopeful person who is now (some would say, finally) losing hope about something that matters to me very much--TORC. It's affecting me much more strongly than I expected, and I will try to think two and three times before posting ideas so my judgment has a chance to kick in. It's just--I thought I saw this coming, and yet the grief is so sharp.
Primmy, the "oldbies" of B77 (those who registered around, uh, 60 days before you did :roll: :D) know exactly what you're going through - we've been there before. :) I'm sorry that you're going through a tough time, and I can feel your pain. I hated losing TORC too, and it affected me deeply. I kept saying to myself, "IT'S JUST A DAMNED MESSAGEBOARD, FERCHRISSAKES!" but the truth is, it's more than that... There's really nothing I can say to make you feel better, except this: It'll pass. :)

Don't mourn too long; keep the good memories, cherish them, and one of those days you'll blink and see that most of what made TORC so special is here now: the people. :)


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