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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 18 Mar , 2005 3:46 am
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The next item on our agenda is the power of the admins, so this is where we would start talking about this anyway. Thanks for reminding us about your model, Voronwe.

The spokesperson would be like the Shire Mayor, right? And I remember that you divided the admins into to Sheriff categories - one to guard the boundary and I forgot what the other ones did.

It might be that the routine and special powers of admins that we have up to discuss would fit nicely into Tolkien's categories, and I like the idea of using his titles for them.

The one thing we haven't accounted for in any of our discussions is a mayor-style position. What circumstances are you thinking of that would call for us to have someone speak on behalf of the whole board?

Jn

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Fri 18 Mar , 2005 3:53 am
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Like Steve talking to New Line today. Or his talking to Jonathan on the phone the other day.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 18 Mar , 2005 4:12 am
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Steve talked to New Line?

Voronwe, I'm on another planet. :D
What thread is it in? I'll go look at it.

Are we going to actively promote ourselves to various entities?'

Jn

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Lidless
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Posted: Fri 18 Mar , 2005 4:18 am
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Oops on the voting. Gimme a couple of minutes...

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Fri 18 Mar , 2005 4:24 am
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Apparently so. ;) But that one is a special case because I know Steve has contacts there. But I also know that he felt constrained in his phone call with Jonathan to point out that he DID NOT speak for b77 as a whole. I do think that there will be occasions where we as an entity deal with other entities and will need to have someone who does speak for us. Maybe not often. Maybe someone would go through their entire term of office and nothing comes up. But I think its a good thing to have.

Another example I can think of is when Jon and Ted were invited to an early screening of the TTT EE and were able to share info with TORC from that event. If the Hobbit ever gets made there might be similar opportunities. Possibly even connections with interesting Tolkien-related personalities such as Douglas Andersen or Tom Shippey. Who knows?


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Lidless
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Posted: Fri 18 Mar , 2005 4:28 am
Als u het leven te ernstig neemt, mist u de betekenis.
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Apologies for the delay. Got my time zones mixed up.

Question #1
#1 = F
#2 = C
#3 = B
#4 = A
#5 = D
#6 = E

Question #2
#1 = A
#2 = B
#3 = C
#4 = D
#5 = E

Question #3
#1 = G
#2 = H
#3 = F
#4 = C
#5 = E
#6 = A
#7 = B
#8 = D

Question #4
#1 = B

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 18 Mar , 2005 4:28 am
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Right. I lurked around and found the thread.

Seems like natural inclination would be important for a job like that. A sort of promoter ...

Remind me again what were the two categories of admin ... I'm sorry to be so forgetful ... oh wait. That was in this thread. I'll go back and read it.

Jn

******* Ok, here's the post:

"My farewell post to TORC really got me to thinking about what an ideal structure for a government would be in an ideal community. It occurred to me that my comments about the Shire were not purely poetic licence. I honestly belief that a structure that matched that described by Tolkien would work extremely well here. It would have a "Mayor" w hose function would be mainly ceremonial, but who would preside over banquets (e.g., speak for board77 in the rare occassions where the board might need to have a spokesperson) and would oversee the Messenger Service and the Watch. The Messengers would be those who would oversaw the technical aspects of making sure that the board runs smoothly and that messages were able to be successfully passed among the community. The Watch would consist of two functions, those performed by the Shirriffs and those performed by the Bounders. The Shirrifs would be responsible for dealing with those rare situations where people got out line, or otherwise were wayward. The Bounders would be responsible for making sure that undesireable outsiders would be kept outside (e.g. Trolls and people who can't learn to get along with others). "

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 18 Mar , 2005 4:39 am
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Oops Missed that! Thank you very much Steve.

Alandriel is going to tabulate her votes tomorrow morning in Europe ... which is only a few hours away. I'll wait for our counts to jive and then post the results.

Jn

edit: Voronwe - I'll get back to this issue tomorrow. I've got to finish tabulating votes and then get to bed! I'm turning over in my mind how the divisions of responsibility we've talked about up until now correlated to the functions described in your post.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Fri 18 Mar , 2005 4:44 am
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Jnyusa wrote:
Seems like natural inclination would be important for a job like that. A sort of promoter ...
Not necessarily. I think that an equally strong argument could be made for someone who doesn't particularly want the job, and is not particularly interested in promoting. Someone like you for instance. :)

Just sayin'.


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Lord_Morningstar
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Posted: Fri 18 Mar , 2005 5:09 am
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Are we going to have moderators? Also, how are the admins chosen?


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Faramond
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Posted: Fri 18 Mar , 2005 5:09 am
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Okay, now that everyone has voted, may I just say that option A on question two deeply offended me?

Eight days consecutive days cannot include two weekends. Just can't happen. I was deeply offended by this assault upon sense and reality. Thank you for listening. :D


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Eruname
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Posted: Fri 18 Mar , 2005 5:16 am
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L_M: so far, we have decided not to have moderators because really the admins do the job of the moderators. Admins are chosen by a vote. There will be one happening soon. People can volunteer ( I believe we'll be deciding who can volunteer ie how long they've been here), their names are put on a poll, then the poll runs for 9 days (like invites). Whoever has the most votes becomes the next admin.

I believe I have all that right. Someone correct me if I don't.

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Ethel
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Posted: Fri 18 Mar , 2005 5:43 am
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Eruname wrote:
L_M: so far, we have decided not to have moderators because really the admins do the job of the moderators. Admins are chosen by a vote. There will be one happening soon. People can volunteer ( I believe we'll be deciding who can volunteer ie how long they've been here), their names are put on a poll, then the poll runs for 9 days (like invites). Whoever has the most votes becomes the next admin.

I believe I have all that right. Someone correct me if I don't.
I think you have it right. But... can I say something? I was encouraged to offer myself as a possible admin, and I have done so. But I'm actually feeling kind of creeped out by the voting process. I agreed to undertake this time-consuming job for the next 3 months - and I truly would be happy to do it. But it turns out I have to offer a kind of "candidate" statement about myself, and there's a fairly good chance - better than even, I think - that I won't be selected by the vote.

This does not give me a warm and fuzzy feeling. And I don't say that to complain, but only because... how are we ever going to get people to volunteer for this job when they must be subjected to a vote which they might very likely lose? Which a majority of the people encouraged to apply are guaranteed to lose? No one likes being rejected. Particularly when they are being rejected for a job that doesn't look like a whole hell of a lot of fun in the first place.

Let's say I don't get selected to be an admin in this next round of voting - quite likely, I think. Do you think I'm going to offer myself again? To be rejected again? Not going to happen. If someone else gets voted in, and I'm rejected - that's totally fine. I'm completely okay with that. But that will, I promise you, be the last time I offer myself up to such a vote. Perhaps other people, with more robust self-esteem than my own, will be willing to offer their services over and over again after being voted down. But is that likely?

I am saying I think we need to rethink this. What is the possible upside for people offering themselves for the admin position? "You didn't lose by that many votes. Go ahead and run again next time! I'm sure you'll get the opportunity to do this thankless job one day."

No, thank you.

Last edited by Ethel on Fri 18 Mar , 2005 6:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Eruname
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Posted: Fri 18 Mar , 2005 6:00 am
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You raise some very important points. I wouldn't want to keep trying if I got rejected. It reminds me of Student Council in grade school...basically one big popularity contest. But, how else are we to select admins?

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Ethel
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Posted: Fri 18 Mar , 2005 6:13 am
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Eruname wrote:
You raise some very important points. I wouldn't want to keep trying if I got rejected. It reminds me of Student Council in grade school...basically one big popularity contest. But, how else are we to select admins?
I don't know the answer, Eruname. I do know that I am very close to withdrawing my name from consideration for admin duties, just because I'm childish enough to fear rejection. I doubt I'm the only person who will feel that way.

It's a purely "service" position on this board. A lot of work with no particular gratification. And volunteering for it subjects one to a vote which most of the volunteers will "lose". It's inconsistent with my understanding of human motivation that people will be willing to subject themselves to this.

In fact, I think I'm going to take my name out of the running. If that's childish, so be it. But this isn't really about me - it's about how to fill a position.


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Eruname
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Posted: Fri 18 Mar , 2005 6:26 am
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I for one wish you wouldn't take your name out of the running. :hug:

Maybe others might have a better idea for selecting admins?

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Fri 18 Mar , 2005 6:55 am
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Lord M., as soon as the results of the current vote are published I will put up the next agenda item which has to do with everything concerning admins.

Some of the admin items were decided in earlier times, including the idea that we would vote for administrators. Since I've been here, we have held some consensus-reaching discussion on how to vote for administrators and I have written that into procedure, but we have not recently discussed whether to vote for administrators.

One alternative that has been tossed around is that administrators would enter by rota. You fulfill your eligibility requirements (which we will shortly decide) and you automatically go into the rota unless you withdraw your name. You do your tour of duty when it's your turn.

There's a lot to be said for this system because one concern expressed at one point was a n00bie/spammer/fangirl/fanboy takeover of the board by means of the vote. We would get admins with their heads full of kleenex.

It is my personal opinion that the committee should be allowed to consider alternate systems, since all this will be voted on by the membership eventually anyway.

Faramond -- right you are. 8 days cannot include two weekends. At least that option didn't win. But would you bring these things up before we vote next time? :doh1:

Voronwe -- but, you see, I really don't want that job. :D

Jn

The second post now contains the next chunk of agenda
G'night all.

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Nin
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Posted: Fri 18 Mar , 2005 8:14 am
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Ethel - let me tell it like this: I also put my name in the list. This means mainly for me, that right now in the next months I might have the time to invest in a board for whose future I care. It might again be the case in a few months, or rather not, and the question if I am ready to do it again, might not depend on it.

There are many other things that enter in consideration for th echoice of an admin: time-zones is one, technical abilities one - I for instance am bad with technical questions, so at least on of the admins should have tech abilities. Personally I think there should be always one who is not a native speaker.

Now - let's say noone chooses me and you become admin - does that mean that people reject me or that they choose you. For me, it means the second option and hell I understand them. I'm sure you'd be a great admin, and I would vote for you myself. But I would still offer my services for another time - because I still care about this board, because in another constellation of people who are alread admins, I might have something to offer to the panel which this time was not important. Because in summer I have two months of holidays... for many other reasons, which do not mean my personnality.

And if in the end, it never works out, I start to doubt and say I'm worthless to be admin and people don't trust me here - I know that my first question will be: What have I done wrong so that they don't trust me? What can I do better to deserve their trust? And just try to do it...

I don't see anything like a popularity contest. For instance, I think that Rodia is higly popular, but for the moment I would not think of her as the ideal admin (and maybe she will hate me if she reads this), because she is still so torn about TORC, has confessed being a techno-messy (like me).

I don't see the description as a way of making points so that people choose me - but as a way of making them choose knowing who I am and what they will fly with. A concious choice.

I would have chose you :(.

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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Fri 18 Mar , 2005 12:58 pm
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Sorry to be brief again. Sadly, online time is still precious for me :roll:

Shire model idea
Spokesperson: rotation and voting on such a position is definitely needed considering the overall democratic structure we're building for b77. I definitely like the 'no power' thingie ;) I'm also (as you say it so nicely Vornwe) attracted to the idea of emphasizing that common ground (tolkien), and using it to help define what b77 is about. The question is HOW we go about that and I'd rather see Tolkienish 'references' applied to content than creating a system of governance with a power hyrarchy. By all means use member titles/member categories or forum titles/categories with a Tolkienish 'ring' to it. Let's think about possible ties to e.g. Tolkien socities etc. and I agree, for that (and other purposes) we'll need a spokesperson.
The only potential flaw I see in this is how to choose a spokes-person. What are the necessary requirements for such a position? Someone who really knows the board and its members well and is fully updated at any given time during their period of office. Someone that has excellent communication skills and can invest a lot of time (not only to act in the capacity but to be able to maintain the capacity).

I'm not saying it will impossible to find such a person, I'm saying it will be extremely difficult to replace such a person on a regular basis.

My suggestion (and yes I know it's a bit 'radical') would be: let the membership elect from a pool of volunteers for the 'spokesperson' position not only one, but 2 (preferably 3) persons that would then take on this capacity for a whole year. They would 'teamwork', have their own forum to communicate amongst each another but also where members can input ideas and participate (strictly on a 'business' basis though and not in any 'social' capacity).
Rotating this position on a more frequent basis I think would just not be practical in reality (not enough volunteers that would fit the 'job description', additional 'voting strain' on the membership – avoidance of apathy etc.)

Now, as to your suggestion Voronwe, the spokesperson(s) would be titled 'Major'. Fine by me :D . Now onto the others:
Quote:
The Messengers would be those who would oversaw the technical aspects of making sure that the board runs smoothly and that messages were able to be successfully passed among the community.
Technical aspects: right now on this board we don't have many technical aspects due to the fact that it's a free board and we have limited options. The future is bright however! :D Estel told me that she and Lidless (having registered the board 77 dot com website) were thinking of getting professional help (paid for). I know I'm sort of spilling the beans here and for that I apologize.
I think that's a VERY good idea. The costs of this can easily be shared amongst the membership on a voluntary basis and I'm sure we won't have a problem with financial aspects. We would need a treasurer though ;), a voluntary capacity with statements e.g. one a year. Excess money could be kept in an account for future use for expanding/maintaining the site (and possible associated projects that may come out of the membership) and/or some money could be given to charity.
So – 'messengers' per se from among the membership at large is not really necessary (avoids problems of volunteering, voting etc. etc.)
Quote:
The Watch would consist of two functions, those performed by the Shirriffs and those performed by the Bounders. The Shirrifs would be responsible for dealing with those rare situations where people got out line, or otherwise were wayward. The Bounders would be responsible for making sure that undesireable outsiders would be kept outside
Both those capacities would necessitate some Moderator functionally to be truly effective. It is my belief it would be better to leave that in the hands of the Admins (avoiding again member apathy and all its related problems)

Can you tell I'm a strong supporter of the no MODs camp? ;) I really REALLY would like to see as little hierarchy as possible and that every poster takes an active role in the daily maintenance of the board, alerting those with the 'buttons' if something needs attention.

… and just how I envisage the Admins of the future, I'll tell you all about when Jny puts the agenda up. :)

One addition due to Ethel's post: I'm also sorry to see you 'postponed' from the list of Admin volunteers. But I fully understand and accept your reason for doing so. In the end we'll have to try and find a system that works for the majority and if your personal feelings go against that... well, maybe over time those will change ;)

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Ethel
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Posted: Fri 18 Mar , 2005 1:12 pm
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I do have some thoughts about how to made the admin position less of a "popularity contest" but I'll wait until that's an appropriate topic.


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