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Best way to break up dog fight?

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MariaHobbit
Post subject: Best way to break up dog fight?
Posted: Thu 06 Aug , 2009 3:54 pm
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What's the best way to break up a dog fight? My two female rat terriers tried to kill each other last night. :( For the first 20 seconds or so, I stayed out of it, but they weren't stopping. First I got a bucket of water and threw it on them, and they didn't even notice. (That works great for cats, though) Then I started screaming "NO!" at them and took off my sandal and was walloping whichever dog I could hit. But they wouldn't stop. :bawl:

Then the younger one had the older one down and with her teeth on the other's throat and trying to shake her like they do rats. The old one was yiping and I thought Kira would kill Natti, so I threw caution to the winds and grabbed Kira by the scruff of the neck and lifted her into the air. Natti started to limp away, so I put Kira down and she launched herself on Natti again. I caught Kira again and put her in the stock trailer and left her there for a few hours (with a bucket of water).

Neither dog is seriously hurt- just some tooth holes and swelling. No rips or tears or guts spilling out.

So, I guess I'd like to know: what method do you know of to break up a dog fight? I really didn't like the way yesterday evening's encounter played out. Natti is limping pretty badly, and Kira's face is swollen. If I could have gotten them apart sooner, less damage would have been done. I understand they have to work out the dominance question now that Kira is full grown, but I can't stand to have Kira kill Natti. :(

I don't understand why this went so far. They've been buddies for a year now. Kira is the closest thing to Natti's own puppy Natti will ever have.

st00pfid dogs

It's probably because we haven't spayed Kira yet, and she's coming into heat again. What a bitch she is. :(

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Ara-anna
Post subject: Re: Best way to break up dog fight?
Posted: Thu 06 Aug , 2009 4:09 pm
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It took my exhusband and two other men to pull apart two Jack Russel Terriers once. The female damn near killed the male. It basically took the men pulling them apart to get the to stop and then putting them in a seperate caged areas of the yard. Water via two hoses did not work.

so I don't know what to tell you. :shrug:

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Jude
Post subject: Re: Best way to break up dog fight?
Posted: Thu 06 Aug , 2009 4:21 pm
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The only time I was in this situation, I stopped it by throwing a glass of water at them. But it wasn't as serious a fight as the one you described, so I guess that doesn't help much.

My only advice is to get Kira spayed as soon as possible. If she's coming into heat, you may have to wait until that's over. If so, keep them apart until the heat is over.

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LalaithUrwen
Post subject: Re: Best way to break up dog fight?
Posted: Thu 06 Aug , 2009 4:25 pm
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I would try a garden hose, but that may or may not be effective, as Ara-anna said.

If you could get a control pole (like dog catchers use), that might work to nab one of them and pull him off of the other dog.

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Meril36
Post subject: Re: Best way to break up dog fight?
Posted: Thu 06 Aug , 2009 4:49 pm
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Start watching The Dog Whisperer. I haven't broken up a dogfight before, but we recently had to catch our neighbor's dog when he got out of his yard and he was trying to bite, so taking my cue from Cesar Millan I told CG to pin him down and roll him onto his back, putting him in a submissive posture. That sure worked - calmed him right down. And yeah, definitely get her spayed ASAP.

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MariaHobbit
Post subject: Re: Best way to break up dog fight?
Posted: Thu 06 Aug , 2009 6:18 pm
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I really didn't want to grab either dog, because I didn't feel like getting my arm laid open by those teeth. I was really quite surprised Kira didn't try to bite me when I lifted her by the scruff. The dog catcher pole sounds like a good idea, though. And it might do double duty for catching sheep as well, if I make it long enough! :D

She started showing signs of going into heat a few days before her spay appointment last time, so we postponed the surgery-- but it's a very slow build up with her, apparently. I've been checking her every day for two months now-- looking for the bleeding that will tell me when her fertile time will be so we can lock her up-- but nothing yet. So, she's probably very close, considering the behavior change yesterday. Then we'll have to wait a month or two afterwards for her hormones to quiet down again and then get her spayed.

I didn't expect this sort of fighting, though. :help:

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vison
Post subject: Re: Best way to break up dog fight?
Posted: Thu 06 Aug , 2009 6:43 pm
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My dad used to shake pepper on the dogs. Maybe a shot of pepper spray?

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MariaHobbit
Post subject: Re: Best way to break up dog fight?
Posted: Thu 06 Aug , 2009 7:14 pm
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Interesting idea! :D Did he put the pepper on them beforehand so they couldn't bear to bite? Or after they started fighting? The pepper spray might work, actually.

Harry was very upset by the fighting, too, btw. He was barking a lot at them, but he's still too much of a puppy to do anything about it. If he were more mature, maybe he would have sat on Kira? He pins her all the time in play.

I've seen our ram break up a fight between two ewes, and our bull did the same when the two cows got into it once. Maybe dogs would do the same thing? Probably not, though. Canine social structure is quite different from herbivores.

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vison
Post subject: Re: Best way to break up dog fight?
Posted: Thu 06 Aug , 2009 9:29 pm
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Dad would shake the pepper on their noses, or anywhere around their heads he could reach when they fought. We had an old Springer spaniel and a young black Lab, and the old dog just hated that young dog. They'd go along for weeks with no uproar and then the Lab would walk up the back steps and BANG, the old guy would fly at him and away they'd go. It was scary. And the old dog would just NOT give up.

The pepper worked, anyway. They'd start sneezing and have to stop fighting.

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Sunsilver
Post subject: Re: Best way to break up dog fight?
Posted: Fri 07 Aug , 2009 2:41 am
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Maria, your instincts were right: the LAST thing you do to break up a dog fight is grab one of the dogs with your bare hand. It's almost sure to get you badly bitten.

I've successfully broken up fights by kicking the dogs and shouting. Sounds mean, but my running shoes cause a LOT less damage than the teeth the dogs are using on each other.

The Leerberg website gives this advice. Go get 2 leashes. Attach them to a fence or other firm stationary object, far enough apart that the dogs can't reach each other. Grab one of the dogs by the hind legs, and pull it backwards quickly until you can attach it to one of the leashes. Then, do the same with the other dog.

If you can find someone to help, he/she can grab the other dog at the same time, which greatly lessens the chances of you getting bitten as it tries to get to the dog you've grabbed.

Fights between females tend to be worse than fights between males, and I WILL NOT give you any guarantee that spaying is going to help. Your young dog is now at the age where she is trying to assert dominance over your older dog. Spaying ain't gonna change that one bit.

I don't know what advice to give you other than watch the two of them carefully, and intervene as soon as you see the young dog trying to start something.

The only other solution is to keep them separated permanently.

Also, re. spaying, it is probably best to wait until a month or two after the heat is finished, as you said you intend to do. I had Star spayed a couple of weeks before her heat, and she bled internally after the surgery. I guess her uterus was already starting to swell and get an increased blood supply in preparation for pregnancy. I told the vet she was due in heat, but he said it wouldn't matter. A second vet I talked to said he wouldn't have operated if I'd told him that.

The in thing now is spaying as young as possible, definitely before the first heat, around 5 or 6 months. This is not healthy either. Spaying early causes the bones to grow longer and thinner than they would in an unneutered female. (The same holds true for neutered and un-neutered males.) The lack of sex hormones delays the closure of the growth plates of the bones. Spaying early also causes spay incontinence in about 20% of females.

I"d heard it said that a female needed to have at least one heat to be fully mature. I thought that was an old wives' tale, until I saw the dramatic changes in Star following her first heat. Her appetite decreased dramatically, and she began to look and act much more mature.

Vets and the animal rights people are pushing for early spay-neuter to reduce the number of unwanted pets, but a really responsilbe pet owner knows how to keep a female from getting preggers, so twice yearly heats shouldn't be that much of a problem.

The irresponsible pet owners don't bother neutering their pets, anyway! :shrug:

BTW, I was hoping to breed Star, as she has an incredible pedigree, but when I sent her x-rays to OFA to be evaluated, they said one of her hips was mildly dysplastic. That's the reason I had her spayed.

And it was a NIGHTMARE! I am never going near that vet again! :rage:

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MariaHobbit
Post subject: Re: Best way to break up dog fight?
Posted: Fri 07 Aug , 2009 1:56 pm
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Our vet is a crusty old timer, and when we asked him when we should spay Kira he said he likes to wait until they are at least a year old, so their personalities fully develop. :suspicious: In Kira's case, I'm not sure that's a good thing! ;)

Actually, with closer observance yesterday evening, the fighting is definitely related to jealousy over humans. You know how dogs vie for attention? My dogs do that whenever I set foot outside the door and they sometimes play fight a bit. Well, twice yesterday when I stopped to pet the dogs, both females started looking aggressive towards each other. I walked quickly away, and they broke it off to follow me. Later on my husband petted first Kira and then Natti, and when he patted Natti, Kira went for her throat. :nono: He kicked her halfway across the yard with one swipe, and she dropped the subject.

So, feet do work. I might try that when I don't have sandals on.

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Sunsilver
Post subject: Re: Best way to break up dog fight?
Posted: Fri 07 Aug , 2009 2:26 pm
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Yup, just what I said: vying for position in the pack. You and your husband are the alphas, so Kira is jealous of your attention, and is trying to make sure Natti doesn't get any!

If I think of something else to help, I'll get back to you. Kira obviously needs to learn her place, that's one thing I can say for sure!

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When the night has been too lonely, and the road has been too long,
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Just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snows,
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MariaHobbit
Post subject: Re: Best way to break up dog fight?
Posted: Fri 07 Aug , 2009 3:12 pm
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If that's the case, maybe doing an "alpha roll" on her when she starts looking aggressive would help. Sending a "her pack leaders won't put up with that behavior" message.

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Sunsilver
Post subject: Re: Best way to break up dog fight?
Posted: Fri 07 Aug , 2009 4:03 pm
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Yes, some sort of action on your part that gets the message across that you won't tolerate fighting. If these were house dogs, I'd put a short leash on them both, and snap the leash to correct them, along with a firm "NO!" when they start to look daggers at each other. However, since they're outside dogs, this is unsafe as they might get caught up on something and strangle.

You can't control whether she will become dominant over Nattie in your pack structure, but that doesn't mean she has to attack Nattie to assert her dominance. Dominance signals can be far more subtle than beating the c**p out of the other dog!

You also need to watch Nattie's body language too. She's been alpha over this pup for months now, and I'm sure she isn't pleased with this turn of events, either!

Just make sure she doesn't attack Kira while you've got her down on the ground!

When I lived in East York, there was a dog owner whose dog was very possessive of him. He'd attack any dog or person that got close to him. The owner thought it was cute, and did nothing to change the behaviour.

The problem was this dog would play just fine with other dogs until they got within a certain distance of his human. Then, BAM!!

We all learned to avoid this dog, and give it a wide berth. Still, he managed to rip open the face of an elderly labrador cross for about 15 stitches!! :x NOT FUNNNY!

One other thought: make sure both dogs get individual attention from you when the other dog isn't around to interfere.

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MariaHobbit
Post subject: Re: Best way to break up dog fight?
Posted: Fri 07 Aug , 2009 6:25 pm
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Natti has only been top female for about 2 years now, since Candy died. She's used to being the underdog. When we got Kira, we wanted to get a male pup just so Natti could be top female for longer, but the males were spoken for when we went to the breeder, and Kira was the only one left. It was kinda cool, though, because we saw the whole litter, and out of all the pups, Kira was the most friendly and bigger and stronger and bouncier than the others. She was obviously the pick of the litter, but everyone else had made their choices off of photos on the internet. We wanted to meet the pup before we decided if we wanted her or not, so we drove 130 miles to see her without even knowing if she'd still be available when we got there.

There aren't many breeders of Decker Rat Terriers in the US, so it was actually quite lucky that the main breeder of that type was so close. So many people are breeding mini rat terriers now that I couldn't find a breeder of standard size rat terriers- so I went for the "giant" kind- the Deckers. She should be around 30 lbs when fully mature. Natti is about 26 lbs and getting shaky with old age, so there really won't be any contest as to who is top dog. Kira will win. I just wish Natti didn't have to go through this at her age!

The fact that she is a rare breed makes me hesitate to spay her, but I really don't want to mess with puppy production. I suppose it wouldn't be that terrible to cage her for a couple of weeks twice a year-- but it would break her heart. :(

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Jude
Post subject: Re: Best way to break up dog fight?
Posted: Fri 07 Aug , 2009 6:28 pm
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Being the most friendly and bouncy of the litter may be a sign of being the most dominant of the litter...

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MariaHobbit
Post subject: Re: Best way to break up dog fight?
Posted: Fri 07 Aug , 2009 6:50 pm
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True, true....

I hope Natti gives up soon, and lets Kira reign uncontested. She's old and doesn't need to be beat up. She's still limping two days later. :(

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Sunsilver
Post subject: Re: Best way to break up dog fight?
Posted: Sat 08 Aug , 2009 2:27 am
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Okay, here's what a really experienced dog trainer has to say:
Quote:
The wife has asked me if alpha-rolling the young female would help, when she's about to go at the other dog.

Yes it would but with a dog that size there is not much rolling to do, just pin the dog until it gives in. The other thing you don't want to do is keep them separated. They must learn the proper way to interact. If you have a problem like this you have to not only deal with it as it happens but set up situations where you expect it to happen so that you can deal with it at a time when you are prepared. For example set up a situation where they give the older dog attention when both of them are on lead. These dogs are very quick and since you want to avert the behavior before it turns into a fight they will need complete control. They have to lean to recognize the dogs intentions before a fight ensues and stop it then. The attitude should be corrected before they come to blows.

No matter how good their intentions they can not always treat the dogs equally. Therefore, the dogs must learn not to react out of jealousy.

The correction however is only half of the solution. They must also be praised when they interact with manners.

These dogs should not be left alone together until they get this under control 100% of the time.

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When the night has been too lonely, and the road has been too long,
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Just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snows,
Lies the seed, that with the sun's love, in the spring becomes The Rose[/size]


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MariaHobbit
Post subject: Re: Best way to break up dog fight?
Posted: Mon 10 Aug , 2009 2:26 pm
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Oh it's easy to see when things are working up to a fight. I keep an eye on them and when they even start to think about fighting I growl at them , "behave!" and pin Kira for a moment or two if she doesn't back down. Once I pinned both of them at the same time. Kira seems to appreciate the intervention as she isn't as worried and whiny as she's been since this all started. She needs input from us to be sure of her place in things, it seems.

In other dog news, Harry refused to be rolled by my husband yesterday. It's a game they've been playing since he was a baby, he gets rolled and bounces back to his feet and comes back for more. He's almost 8 months old now and we had visitors-- so that might be why he refused to be rolled-- but it was surprising that he could resist. He's getting to be a really big boy (probably around 80 lbs or so), but my husband is several degrees into his black belt in Judo. He knows an awful lot about breaking the balance and making people fall. My husband didn't force the issue yesterday- was just surprised that Harry didn't want to play- but I guess we can check and see tonight if it was just the visitors that made him not want to expose his belly or if he just doesn't want to play that way anymore.

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Jonny
Post subject: Re: Best way to break up dog fight?
Posted: Wed 12 Aug , 2009 3:31 pm
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Grab an available back leg of the aggressor dog. Hoist UP.

It works like a charm!

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