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Self censoring gone amuck.

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Rodia
Post subject: Re: Self censoring gone amuck.
Posted: Tue 22 Dec , 2009 11:43 pm
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Ah. It confuses me because it sounds so angry- almost as if one were looking forward to the moment when they aren't required to respect the other belief anymore. I assume the implication is that the other person's belief has to violate the laws first in order to lose the respect, but...yeah, it just doesn't spell that out for me. :P I think I understand what it means now but it kind of sounds like it means something else. Especially because it talks about the moment when respect for another person's belief stops- there is no suggestion that respect for our own beliefs should ever stop. Or that a legislation is not always respectful in itself. Ahhhh I'm overthinking this, what is wrong with me.

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Estel
Post subject: Re: Self censoring gone amuck.
Posted: Wed 23 Dec , 2009 12:23 am
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Well, it's not when the beliefs violate the laws. Rather, when people try to change the law, to suit their own belief - in essense, trying to force their beliefs on others through legal means.

Or something :uhoh:

My brain isn't working well enough tonight :help:


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elfshadow
Post subject: Re: Self censoring gone amuck.
Posted: Wed 23 Dec , 2009 1:29 am
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Can I just say, Maria, that the "militant agnostic" quote was so funny! :LMAO:


I'm an INFP too, and I definitely understand the tendency to avoid rather than confront. I have always had a problem with confrontation, so when I am hurt I tend to just curl up in my shell for a bit.


I don't really post at HoF that much, either, but I think it's that the people who post there are for the most part so nice that when I say something that offends someone, I think, "Wow, I must have *really* screwed up!" But it's nice in a polite way, it seems, and at b77 I feel as though people are nice in a friendlier kind of way. Like, if I say something stupid here, I know that I might rightfully get called out on it, but it would be in the manner that a friend would rather than the way a teacher would. Does that make sense? :oops: I'm not trying to criticize anyone at HoF, so I hope it doesn't come off that way. As others here have said, I just feel more comfortable in this atmosphere than in that one. :)


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Sunsilver
Post subject: Re: Self censoring gone amuck.
Posted: Wed 23 Dec , 2009 1:46 am
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MariaHobbit wrote:
I need to fish slap my own head.

That sounded way too weird.

And yes, it's still my own fault! :P
No, it's NOT!

And, allow me... =:)

:salmon:

There. Happy now?

Estel, okay now I gotcha on that quote. I didn't get it at first either.

Funny, there's stuff I want to say about the situation, but just can't bring myself to do it, because it feels like talking behind a friend's back.

OTOH, at the time B77 was launched, I had no problems criticizing TORC!

Okay, we were a closed board then.... :blackeye:

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yovargas
Post subject: Re: Self censoring gone amuck.
Posted: Wed 23 Dec , 2009 2:46 am
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Sunsilver wrote:
OTOH, at the time B77 was launched, I had no problems criticizing TORC!

Okay, we were a closed board then.... :blackeye:
Plus, they were a bunch of poopyheads.

=:)


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Sunsilver
Post subject: Re: Self censoring gone amuck.
Posted: Wed 23 Dec , 2009 3:17 am
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Yes, and I have a lot more respect for Voronwe than I did for the people responsible for the TORC fiasco.

Notice I'm not mentioning any names...

:whistle:

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject: Re: Self censoring gone amuck.
Posted: Wed 23 Dec , 2009 5:45 am
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Odd that it's okay to hint bash one site and yet another is requested to be left alone. I'm not saying "stop," just find it odd.

I was thrown off my campus radio station for some that might have been offensive. "Well, we feel that if people did get offended, they would and you should be reprimanded." They were rape jokes and damn fucking funny. We did the bad joke laugh, too. Anyone who doesn't give a shit whether others get offended knows the laugh. I dislike places where someone "might" get offended.

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Rodia
Post subject: Re: Self censoring gone amuck.
Posted: Wed 23 Dec , 2009 8:59 am
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Are we bashing? I didn't think we were bashing, just discussing. I didn't know we weren't allowed to talk about another site, either, is it TORC? I've been away too long.
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Well, it's not when the beliefs violate the laws. Rather, when people try to change the law, to suit their own belief - in essense, trying to force their beliefs on others through legal means.
See, that argument I will NEVER understand. What are laws, other than a combination of someone's BELIEFS on what is and isn't appropriate? Of course people are going to try and make sure what they believe in is going to be law! They always did and always will, there is NO OTHER WAY to do it.

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Estel
Post subject: Re: Self censoring gone amuck.
Posted: Wed 23 Dec , 2009 10:12 am
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Beliefs in reference to religious beliefs, more so than general moral beliefs.

I'm really not explaining anything well, am I :help: I'm sorry :oops:


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Rodia
Post subject: Re: Self censoring gone amuck.
Posted: Wed 23 Dec , 2009 11:41 am
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Is there a concrete list of universal moral beliefs we can refer to? I didn't think there was, but correct me if I'm wrong.

If there isn't, well, you can't tell someone their belief is less valid because it comes from a religion. They have every right to try and make it law. Shit, I have a right to try and get a law passed that says cats be elected into office, if I believe they should, and if the majority agrees with me, and if the system is such that the majority vote wins, well...

It's not you, Stellie, I've had a problem with that argument for a long time now. Don't get me wrong, I definitely don't want any one religion to take over the world but I think it's silly to expect that people will not try and fight for what they believe is right (whether it is or not) to be made law. And I can't differentiate between religious beliefs and moral beliefs, because, why, and how? Sure, some religious beliefs infringe on other people's freedom. So do some non-religious beliefs. Nothing new there.

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Estel
Post subject: Re: Self censoring gone amuck.
Posted: Wed 23 Dec , 2009 12:07 pm
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Rodia wrote:
Is there a concrete list of universal moral beliefs we can refer to? I didn't think there was, but correct me if I'm wrong.
Be good to others pretty much covers it ;) Golden rule and all that is pretty universal. Don't murder, don't rape, don't steal, don't torture, don't do violence upon others, etc etc etc
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If there isn't, well, you can't tell someone their belief is less valid because it comes from a religion. They have every right to try and make it law. Shit, I have a right to try and get a law passed that says cats be elected into office, if I believe they should, and if the majority agrees with me, and if the system is such that the majority vote wins, well...
Actually, in the U.S. I can. Separation of Church and State is the law there. No one has the right to take any religion and force it to be followed legally, even if they have the majority, and if they do manage, it can be challenged and struck down as unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.
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It's not you, Stellie, I've had a problem with that argument for a long time now. Don't get me wrong, I definitely don't want any one religion to take over the world but I think it's silly to expect that people will not try and fight for what they believe is right (whether it is or not) to be made law. And I can't differentiate between religious beliefs and moral beliefs, because, why, and how? Sure, some religious beliefs infringe on other people's freedom. So do some non-religious beliefs. Nothing new there.
It's not that I don't expect people to try or want to try. It's that anyone who does cannot expect those that disagree with them to sit back and say, "well, it's your religious belief and I have to respect that, so I can't fight it, even if it infringes on my rights." That's why the statement of respecting your beliefs until they infringe on our legislation.

If your religion says that you can't eat chocolate, that's well and good for you and I'll respect your right to do that. If, however, you try to make chocolate illegal for everyone, even those who don't follow your religion, through legislation, my respect for your belief that chocolate is bad ends, and I'll fight you tooth and nail, even if it offends you. I won't respect your religious beliefs if you try to force them on me, basically.


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Jude
Post subject: Re: Self censoring gone amuck.
Posted: Wed 23 Dec , 2009 12:16 pm
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If you believe it's wrong to create images of people, you don't create images of people. You don't need to demand a law against it, you just don't do it yourself. And you certainly don't incite riots and threaten to kill other people people that believe differently. Not if you're mature, anyway.

Similarly, if you believe that same-sex marriages are wrong, you don't marry someone of the same sex. You don't campaign for a law that prevents everyone else from marrying someone of the same sex.

No, people don't have a right to make their beliefs law, that is, they don't have a right to make a law that imposes their beliefs on everyone else. As long as your own freedom to practice your beliefs is intact, then that's good enough.

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Rodia
Post subject: Re: Self censoring gone amuck.
Posted: Wed 23 Dec , 2009 12:33 pm
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Estel wrote:
Rodia wrote:
Is there a concrete list of universal moral beliefs we can refer to? I didn't think there was, but correct me if I'm wrong.
Be good to others pretty much covers it ;) Golden rule and all that is pretty universal. Don't murder, don't rape, don't steal, don't torture, don't do violence upon others, etc etc etc
Yes, well, etc etc etc but that's not very concrete, is it. I'm talking about clearly differentiating morals from religious beliefs, since the suggestion is that they are completely separate. Everyone knows you have to be good and fair to others, but everyone interprets that differently, that's why we need laws that say 'this is the way we do it'. But there is as far as I know no clearly defined universal moral law above all other laws that we could refer to when trying to make up our law system. We can only refer to our own beliefs. And we don't all share those.
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If there isn't, well, you can't tell someone their belief is less valid because it comes from a religion. They have every right to try and make it law. Shit, I have a right to try and get a law passed that says cats be elected into office, if I believe they should, and if the majority agrees with me, and if the system is such that the majority vote wins, well...
Actually, in the U.S. I can. Separation of Church and State is the law there. No one has the right to take any religion and force it to be followed legally, even if they have the majority, and if they do manage, it can be challenged and struck down as unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.
That's not what I meant. I'm not talking about making a religion mandatory. I'm talking about people taking the laws of their religion and trying to put them into the country's law. You can't say 'well that's not allowed because you only believe that because of your religion'. That's discrimination, that's saying religious people must first reject their religion before they are allowed to suggest new laws.
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It's not that I don't expect people to try or want to try. It's that anyone who does cannot expect those that disagree with them to sit back and say, "well, it's your religious belief and I have to respect that, so I can't fight it, even if it infringes on my rights." That's why the statement of respecting your beliefs until they infringe on our legislation.
If your religion says that you can't eat chocolate, that's well and good for you and I'll respect your right to do that. If, however, you try to make chocolate illegal for everyone, even those who don't follow your religion, through legislation, my respect for your belief that chocolate is bad ends, and I'll fight you tooth and nail, even if it offends you. I won't respect your religious beliefs if you try to force them on me, basically.
Ok, here's an example, chosen on purpose. My belief that gay people should be allowed to marry is not in tune with the current legislation of many US states, and if I were a US citizen I would fight for the law to change according to my belief. What now? I have a hunch you also think this is a law that should be passed, regardless of the fact that for many people, religious and non-religious alike, this would seem as inappropriate as, say, a law that allows people to walk around naked and masturbate in public. So, you DO respect my beliefs even when they infringe on the legislation, provided they do not infringe on YOUR beliefs. No?

Of course you would fight me if I tried to pass a law that you would oppose. That's normal. It's also normal that I might try to get a law passed that I believe in, regardless of what others think of it. Like I said, whether you believe in something because of religion or because your mother always told you so should have absolutely no bearing on how your suggestion is viewed. You have a right to fight for it either way.

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Rodia
Post subject: Re: Self censoring gone amuck.
Posted: Wed 23 Dec , 2009 12:38 pm
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Similarly, if you believe that same-sex marriages are wrong, you don't marry someone of the same sex. You don't campaign for a law that prevents everyone else from marrying someone of the same sex.
Um, yes you do. You campaign for a law that prevents everyone else from doing something you think is morally wrong. Why is that so hard to understand?
Jude wrote:
No, people don't have a right to make their beliefs law, that is, they don't have a right to make a law that imposes their beliefs on everyone else. As long as your own freedom to practice your beliefs is intact, then that's good enough.
Jude, some people believe they should be allowed to have sex with young children. Under current US legislation, for example, they are not free to practice their beliefs. If they tried to pass such a law, it would be a law that allows, not one that prevents- no one HAS to have sex with young children, but those who want to would be allowed to!

All I'm saying is that no matter what I believe in, I have a right to fight for it. The US (again, because most posters here are from there) has freedom of speech that allows people to walk around with swastikas and claim black people are not as good as white people. I'm sure they also have a right to try and bring racist laws back. It likely won't work, because they don't have a deciding power, but they CAN try. You can't tell them 'no you can't because that belief is against mine'. You can only fight hard and make sure they don't win.

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Jude
Post subject: Re: Self censoring gone amuck.
Posted: Wed 23 Dec , 2009 2:24 pm
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I believe rights trumps morals. If you believe that same-sex marriages are immoral, you have the right not to partake of them. You don't have the right to impose your morals, right or wrong, on anyone else.

Which brings us to your second example. The right of a child not to be exploited takes precedence over anyone that thinks that it is moral to exploit them.
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Why is that so hard to understand?
You're confusing understanding with agreement. Your points are all valid, and you express them well. I just disagree with your conclusions. ;)

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MariaHobbit
Post subject: Re: Self censoring gone amuck.
Posted: Wed 23 Dec , 2009 2:49 pm
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elfshadow wrote:
I don't really post at HoF that much, either, but I think it's that the people who post there are for the most part so nice that when I say something that offends someone, I think, "Wow, I must have *really* screwed up!"
That sums up so exactly how I felt!!! Thank you!


As far as beliefs vs. legislation goes, well... everyone has beliefs, whether faith based or otherwise, and if they feel strongly enough about them they try to get them put into law. There are lots of laws I think are stupid, but I don't feel strongly enough about them to fight them.

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Estel
Post subject: Re: Self censoring gone amuck.
Posted: Wed 23 Dec , 2009 3:31 pm
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MH - do you want the osgiliation split into another thread? Sorry it went so far off topic :oops:


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LalaithUrwen
Post subject: Re: Self censoring gone amuck.
Posted: Wed 23 Dec , 2009 3:42 pm
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We can certainly do that. I was wondering that about the Jesus/Santa Claus thread, too.

And can I just say how much I like the fact that Ro's posting again? :)

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Estel
Post subject: Re: Self censoring gone amuck.
Posted: Wed 23 Dec , 2009 4:00 pm
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It is brilliant, isn't it :D :horse:


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vison
Post subject: Re: Self censoring gone amuck.
Posted: Wed 23 Dec , 2009 4:08 pm
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Not only brilliant, but her point is a very nice point. :)

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