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Sil Disc: Ch. 9-Of the Flight of the Noldor

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Sassafras
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Posted: Sun 13 Nov , 2005 10:28 pm
through the looking glass
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<I don't want to get too far off of the Silmarillion here, but ....>

I know you think we have free will, Prim, and most people go about their daily lives believing that they have freedom of choice.

I'm in the minority here. I believe in conditional free will. Or, in philosophical nomenclature :D , Compatibilism. (David Hume)
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There certainly have been times when people have simply chosen one course of action over another. My point is that they did have choice, even though we now know the outcome

What I am saying is .... a single choice that any one of us might make is determined by many previous choices ... each one reaching back into a causal chain ... there are no random expressions of free will. Each action can be linked to what we are and the way we think ... which is itself determined by genetics, enviroment and events we experience. Nature and Nuture. Now this does not mean that there is only one choice for any given moment. There are undoubtedly more than one. But all of those choices are a link in a continuous chain.

Had I but full knowledge and understanding of who and what you are I would be able to predict your actions. But of course, I do not. I barely have full knowledge of what I am. :D
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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Sun 13 Nov , 2005 10:36 pm
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Well, to be completely physical, Sass—in a universe that contains both chaotic systems and quantum phenomena it is actually not possible to define any real system so exactly that you can predict its behavior perfectly. Chaos and uncertainty are built in at the subatomic level and influence things from there on up. I certainly believe this applies to a system as complex as a human being, an Elf, or one of the Valar.

And this is without bringing in any spiritual element.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Sun 13 Nov , 2005 10:37 pm
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Sassy, I think (and I have long thought this), that our points of view about this are pretty similar.

I also think that its virtully impossible for me to think cogent thoughts with Jimi Hendrix and the Band of Gypsies tearing holes in my consciousness in the background. Back to the dishes, which I can just about barely handle.
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Alatar
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Posted: Fri 25 Nov , 2005 9:24 am
of Vinyamar
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I know its a little early to bring this up, but I spotted the following over at TORN and I though there were some great questions to be kept in mind as we move forward:
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"Longest of all the realms of the Eldalië shall Gondolin stand against Melkor. But love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the Sea." Thus Ulmo warned Turgon at the founding of Gondolin.

This weekend, Hall of Fire resumes regular Silmarillion chats with Chapter 15 -- Of the Noldor in Beleriand.

Hidden from all spying eyes, Turgon builds Gondolin as a replica of Tirion -- the city lost to the Noldor in exile. Is it yearning for home? Is it hubris or defiance of the Valar or Morgoth?

And to whom does Ulmo's warning refer? Is it the coming of Tuor from Nevrast (in the west) or a foresight of the Valar and the War of Wrath?

However, Gondolin is not protected by the enchantments of Ulmo alone. The eagles of Manwe also keep the spies of Morgoth at bay. Is this an indication that the Valar are working together in subtle ways to assist the Noldor? And how does this alter our views of the activity or inactivity of the Valar in opposing Morgoth?

We'll also discuss events in Doriath where -- slowly but inexorably -- the shameful truth of the flight of the Noldor from Aman is revealed to Thingol and Melian. What impact does this have on the leaguer against Morgoth?

Is Galadriel reluctant to speak of those events out of fear or out of loyalty? Does she become complicit in events by concealing the truth? And what does it mean that Melian cannot pierce the shadows that hides Valinor?

Moreover, why does Galadriel stay in Doriath rather than with her brother Finrod? And what of Melian's discussions with Thingol, his ditrust of the Valar and her portents about the importance of the Silmarils and warnings about the Sons of Feanor?

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Sassafras
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Posted: Fri 25 Nov , 2005 10:26 pm
through the looking glass
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I saw that too, Alatar.

I've even been tempted to join in their Sil discussion but this weekend I couldn't think straight.

Still, we've a ways to go before we reach chapter 15. :D
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Alatar
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Posted: Thu 01 Dec , 2005 11:27 pm
of Vinyamar
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Is that it?


Is this dead now?


At this rate I'll have been through 5 messageboards before we finish discussing the Sil.

:(

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Wilma
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Posted: Sun 04 Dec , 2005 7:18 am
Takoyaki is love
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I see no one has answered your question. :(

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MaidenOfTheShieldarm
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Posted: Sun 04 Dec , 2005 7:23 am
Another bright red day
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I'm going to try really hard to read up to here in the Sil and start participating in this discussion as I've been meaning to for ages.

There, now I've posted it and you can all yell at me when I forget.

I don't want our HoF to lose all vestiges of discussion.

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moonfariegalena
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Posted: Mon 02 Jan , 2006 5:30 pm
The Woman who Knows her Vegetables
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:( Sil was such a long time ago....

chapter 9 is a very reachable goal, and since my chatting time seems to be wonky today :bawl: I shall distract myself by the magick of Sil anew.....

of course, let us hope the thread doesn`t die before that :blackeye:

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I've been making a list of the things they don't teach you at school. They don't teach you how to love somebody. They don't teach you how to be rich or how to be poor. They don't teach you how to know what's going on in someone else's mind. They don't teach you what to say to someone who's dying. They don't teach you anything worth knowing.

N. Gaiman


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