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Oohhh Thanks Athrabeth. I am still mulling all that over but that is plenty of food for thought!!!! I especialy like the 'realizing his obvious superiority' part. I think that is very telling. Especially since it did not seem he really encountered any kind of thinking contrary to that while growing up. I really like that idea. I think that mindset could play a major role in all of this!!! Poor Nerdanel *shakes head*

I wonder what led people to have their hearts drift over to Fingolfin. I do not think I would trust Feanor as a leader myself since he seemes too hot headed and it dosen't seem like he can share. Not to mention the whole threatening your own brother. I have read over Voronwe's comment about Fingolfin having huge ego. Although I have to say dude took it pretty well being thretened by his own brother. He was also very forgiving while Feanor didn't really uh.. think he did anything wrong (or should be called out for it).

Voronwe why would you think Fingolfin has a huge ego? Afterall I think he was pretty uh neglected by his father (in terms of moral support). That does not lead to a huge ego to me. Alot of things I have seen Fingolfin do is in an attempt not to stoop as low as his brother Feanor. Although opposing Feanor just because he can I think is a bit petty, but it's better then threatening. Also, how else is he going to stick it to Feanor? Feanor has all of Fingolfin's father's love. He can't let Feanor steamroll him in everything else.

I kind of feel sorry for the Noldor since it was their falling for gossip that really lead to their end. Trying to look smart, getting arrogant. Although I wish the Valar had noticed earlier. Couldn't the tokens of vying houses been a clue?

Also, I wonder if Finwe ever had a talk with Feanor about the whole "Gee I encouraged the people to come here and you are encouraging them to leave" issue. Was Finwe that blind? There is loving your son but then... there is just being too soft!! Your his father!!! Kid needs some discipline!!!
Not to mention his blatant favouritism by going into exile his son. Exile which was punishment for his son threatening his other son!!!!! What the heck is that!! Feanor was right to threaten his own brother? [sarcasm] That's a good example to set there Finwe!!! [/sarcasm] I can imagine how much that hurt Fingolfin. Maybe at some point in his life Fingolfin realized that there was no point hoping he could get a glimmer of his father's uh doting love and attention and instead quietly stick it to Feanor whenever he got the chance. (Hmm Voronwe I kind of see where you are coming from, but I still don't understand the huge ego thing).

I also agree with Athrabeth that it does seem like a generational thing this urge to leave. Hmmmm. Although I wonder why the Valar did not tell the Elves about the Aftercomers. That seems pretty important. That simple thing could have changed things since Melkor would not have been able to twist that. It's like a little kid finding out a little brother or sister is coming and they realize they won't be the centre of attention anymore. That is pretty major to me. Did the Valar just forget after passing on so much knowledge to the Elves?

Also, I noticed back reading that there is all this talk about freedom among the Noldor and from Feanor but not a single person considers how the heck are we going to get across the sea? I notice not a single Noldor points out that major obstacle to freedom! What are they going to do, swim? There dosen't seem to be too much planning there although they are so eager to leave. I wonder how serious some of the Noldor were about leaving, since there is talking about it, but it is a whole other thing actually following through on leaving (especially if the person 'wanting' to leave is very comfortable where they currently are). I wonder if the whole leaving issue could have been a phase that could have passed if Melkor hadn't done what he had done, and compelled Feanor to rebel and prove his point to the Valar (and other elves). I wonder what that point could be, that he didn't need them? That he was better then them? Maybe since his own father was quite lax with raising him he dosen't deal well with authority? I dunno, just wondering out loud.

I did notice that Feanor did actually almost consider Melkor's offer for assistance, so he must have realized there were obstacles. (Hmmm I wonder what Melkor thought of the theft of the ships. That he couldn't have planned it out better? *raises eyebrow*) Sometimes I just get the feeling that Melkor played Feanor like a fiddle (sometimes unintentionally though).

I am still on chapter 7 and 8 (re reading) but soon I will move on to the current chapter soon. Chapter 8 moves pretty quickly I have noticed.

[quote="Wilma"]Voronwe why would you think Fingolfin has a huge ego?/quote]

Because he reminds me of me.

Edit: My rough response has been sitting in Word for so long that many of the comments I had are now irrelevant. Ath has already addressed this one below. But if I don't post this soon (like now) it will fall by the wayside and that would be a shame (for me) because I very much want this thread, and this forum, to thrive with more than just trivia.

So, for what it's worth:

Voronwe wrote:

Quote:

This idea that Morgoth must diminish his own self in order to dominate others (and indeed the world itself) is really a key theme for Tolkien. The idea that the world itself is "Morgoth's Ring" (in that he inserts his energy into the matter of the whole much as Sauron later concentrates his power in the Ring) is really critical. It is impossible to escape the evil of Morgoth, because it is everywhere.

And yet … by inoculating Arda with his essence … he becomes weaker and the way is thereby prepared for his eventual defeat. The first thought this raises is that Melkor/Morgoth’s power is now limited. That is, it exists in a finite amount. He has drained himself.
Although quite obviously he must have considered how best to dominate
the created world. Was he so driven by envy that the desire to distort and corrupt overwhelmed him and he imbued Arda with himself without cognizance of the cost to himself?. Did he not realize that by distributing his power, spreading it thin so to speak (like butter scraped over too much bread) his power was diluted?

For now, more than in the days of Utumno ere his pride was humbles, his hatred devoured him, and in the domination of his servants and the inspiring them with lust of evil he SPENT his spirit. Nonetheless his majesty as one of the Valar long remained, though turned to terror, and before his face all save the mightiest sank into a dark pit of fear.

The conclusion being that evil requires more power from the individual than good. A bit odd when considered against the usual religious teaching that the path of righteousness takes a whole lot more focus than the easier road to hell.

<I often wondered why Sauron repeated the mistake? Did he learn nothing from observation? Or was his ego so blind it could not fathom failure? Yes, we are told that Sauron could not conceive of any being wishing to destroy his Ring and, well, everyone knows the outcome of that particular piece of shortsightedness>

It gives one pause and causes one to wonder at the immediacy of these immortal beings … they seem incapable of foresight. Almost childlike in their responses. Thinking only of the immediate. Nothing ever seems to be fully thought through.

Feanor:

Are the Noldor FORBIDDEN by the Valar to return to Middle Earth? < I must go back and re-read it seems> The Coming of the Elves speaks only of the threat (Melkor) and the desire of the Valar to protect and enjoy the Quendi.

At the last, therefore, the Valar summoned the Quendi to Valinor, there to be gathered at the knees of the Power in the light of the Trees forever; and Mandos broke his silence, saying “So it is doomed.â€

Great post, Sass. I'm happy you decided to post it. It makes me wonder what other nuggets are contained in old drafts that you and others have made and never posted. My theory is, if you thought it was worth saying at one point, other people are going to think it was worth saying, even if you (the general you, not necessarily the Sassy you) come to the opposite conclusion, for whatever reason.

I'll be back to address some of the points you (the Sassy you) made.

I look forward to it, V.

Speaking of old drafts stuck in never-never land ....



Off the top of my head, there's

1) My new insights into TTT (just watched it again)

2) Thoughts on the transmutation of Tolkien's philosophy into story.

3) Parallels in FOTR and ROTK (films)

4) Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth. (Based on excerpts read)

I'd like to get around to finalizing some of these. Especially the Athrabeth
and Tolkien's philosophy.

Any of these strike your fancy?

All of 'em. But you need to read the full Athrabeth before we can properly discuss that work.

Where can that be found? Is it in the HoME?

Yes, it is in Morgoth's Ring (HoME Volume X).

Phew. I have that one

I'm missing the last two volumes. Let me know if you'll be discussing it and I'll go ahead and read it. I need some encouragement to read various sections as I'm not scholar enough to slog through all of it.

Sassafras wrote:

Voronwe wrote:

Quote:

This idea that Morgoth must diminish his own self in order to dominate others (and indeed the world itself) is really a key theme for Tolkien. The idea that the world itself is "Morgoth's Ring" (in that he inserts his energy into the matter of the whole much as Sauron later concentrates his power in the Ring) is really critical. It is impossible to escape the evil of Morgoth, because it is everywhere.

And yet … by inoculating Arda with his essence … he becomes weaker and the way is thereby prepared for his eventual defeat. The first thought this raises is that Melkor/Morgoth’s power is now limited. That is, it exists in a finite amount. He has drained himself.

Was Melkor ever really defeated? Or did he simply allow his power to become so dispersed into the very essence of Arda that his individual self no longer mattered. Sure "Melkor" was chained and then thrust through the door of night, but the essence of Morgoth remained, and (I would argue) has become more powerful over the ages, not less. Even the defeat of Sauron and the destruction of the Ring was but a temporary respite. The evil that Melkor first generates grows apace, even in this modern age.

Quote:

Although quite obviously he must have considered how best to dominate the created world. Was he so driven by envy that the desire to distort and corrupt overwhelmed him and he imbued Arda with himself without cognizance of the cost to himself?. Did he not realize that by distributing his power, spreading it thin so to speak (like butter scraped over too much bread) his power was diluted?

I don't think he thought about it one way or the other. And I disagree that his power was diluted, if by that you mean that it was lessened. I think Melkor's power became greater, not lesser by being imbued into the very essense of Arda. Think about it. No being, whether sentient or not, has escaped Melkor's evil influence in the whole history of Arda (save perhaps Bombadil). The power inplicit in such a thing is mind-boggling. Did Melkor purposefully give up his individual identity in order to achieve such lasting and overreaching power? I don't think he thought about it one way or the other. I don't think he had any choice in the matter. Which would mean, of course, that the dispersal of Melkor power into the very fabric of Arda was Eru's plan all along. How's that for a sobering thought?

Quote:

It gives one pause and causes one to wonder at the immediacy of these immortal beings … they seem incapable of foresight.

Except Mandos.

Quote:

Mandos know his summoning of the Elves to Valinor will result in their ultimate ruin.He has the precognition of their great Doom and yet he issues the summons anyway?

Is this not an evil in it’s own way?

Quote:

I have always found the concept of Mandos knowing the future but not acting on it, or even revealing it until and if it is time to do so to be quite mind-boggling, and I still do.

I cannot wrap my brain around this, Voronwe. I just can't fathom WHY Tolkien wrote Mandos this way. It seems cruel, heartless even, to know that bringing the Quendi back to Valinor will set in motion the events leading to their downfall and to not share this forsight with the rest of the Valar.

I don't think that Mandos' reticence is evil, Sassy, I just think he is playing the role designed for him. Despite his foreknowledge of things to come, he is not allowed to interfere with the actions of the other Valar (or, for the matter, the Children of Eru) because they all have their own proper role to play in making the Vision reality. As the prophet Bob Marley says,

Some say it's just a part of it
We've got to fulfill the book

I'll see your Bob Marley and raise you a Rubaiyat.

With Earth's first Clay They did the Last Man's knead,
And then of the Last Harvest sow'd the Seed:
Yea, the first Morning of Creation wrote
What the Last Dawn of Reckoning shall read.

Hey, I've been arguing this since we first began reading the Silmarillion on TORC.

That free will (in the Silmarillion, at least) is illusory. Oh, there are undoubtedly acts of individual volition ... but not where it concerns the nature of Melkor or the Doom of the Elves. Melkor was meant to fall, to imbue Arda with his essence (Arda Marred) and the Elves were meant to travel the long defeat.

All for the sake of the plan: the Final Music.

<sigh>

Voronwe wrote:

Which would mean, of course, that the dispersal of Melkor's power into the very fabric of Arda was Eru's plan all along.

I still disagree with this. I think the dispersal of Melkor's power into the very fabric of Arda was potentially Eru's plan all along.........as every other infinite possibility had the potential to become manifest at the very moment Iluvatar kindled "the offspring of his thought" with the Imperishable Flame.

Sassafras wrote:

That free will (in the Silmarillion, at least) is illusory. Oh, there are undoubtedly acts of individual volition ... but not where it concerns the nature of Melkor or the Doom of the Elves. Melkor was meant to fall, to imbue Arda with his essence (Arda Marred) and the Elves were meant to travel the long defeat.

To my mind, that would negate the necessity of the hand of Eru entering into the story on occasion (from the Sil through to LOTR) to "put things right", as it were. If everything is set according to some great predetermined master plan, then why should its maker mess with the design at all? On the other hand, if things can indeed go awry with the great predetermined master plan, doesn't that that imply that its maker is capable of error? Neither seem quite right to me, somehow.

To me, this is the beauty of Tolkien's construct: that "God" creates sub-creators capable of free will and the inherent ability to make their choices "be", and regardless of what outcomes these choices will generate, they become part of "the plan". I still maintain that if Iluvatar is somehow "infinitely every-thing", then that must mean that absolutely every possible outcome springs from him at the instant his thought takes form, from the creation of the Ainur to the propounding of the Third Theme of Music, in which his "Children" have their beginning. It is through the gift and the burden of free will that infinite paths become narrowed and set, but even so, they still meet and entwine and branch out to form destinies and destinations unlooked for, some painfully tragic and others magnificently triumphant.

In one of his letters, Tolkien says something to the effect that in gifting the Ainur with both free will and the powers of subcreation, Iluvatar must accept all the potential outcomes born from these forces as part of the great unfolding tale that he began. The only assurance he gives, unchanging and absolute, is that no "subdesign" conceived by any one of them can ultimately usurp the greater themes of his thought, and though individuals may fall and be corrupted, though death and pain and despair may long hold sway, no evil can overcome the blessedness of his Children, for whom Arda was created.

Athrabeth wrote:

Voronwe wrote:

Which would mean, of course, that the dispersal of Melkor's power into the very fabric of Arda was Eru's plan all along.

I still disagree with this. I think the dispersal of Melkor's power into the very fabric of Arda was potentially Eru's plan all along.........as every other infinite possibility had the potential to become manifest at the very moment Iluvatar kindled "the offspring of his thought" with the Imperishable Flame.

Whilst I do not dispute that every infinite possibility had the potential to become manifest, Iluvator knows before it occurrs which possibility will in fact become manifest. How do I know this? Because what is Mandos but the mouthpiece of Eru? Surely anything that Mandos knows is known by Iluvator as well. I think that Mandos' main role in the story is to inform us of the inevitability of at least certain aspects of the tale.

Quote:

Sassafras wrote:

That free will (in the Silmarillion, at least) is illusory. Oh, there are undoubtedly acts of individual volition ... but not where it concerns the nature of Melkor or the Doom of the Elves. Melkor was meant to fall, to imbue Arda with his essence (Arda Marred) and the Elves were meant to travel the long defeat.

To my mind, that would negate the necessity of the hand of Eru entering into the story on occasion (from the Sil through to LOTR) to "put things right", as it were. If everything is set according to some great predetermined master plan, then why should its maker mess with the design at all? On the other hand, if things can indeed go awry with the great predetermined master plan, doesn't that that imply that its maker is capable of error? Neither seem quite right to me, somehow.

While I agre with you that free will is not illusory, could not Iluvator's own interventions be part of the great predetermined master plan? After all, if I were devising some great predetermined master plan, I would certainly want to reserve some actoins for myself, rather then just being a boring onlooker all the time.

Quote:

To me, this is the beauty of Tolkien's construct: that "God" creates sub-creators capable of free will and the inherent ability to make their choices "be", and regardless of what outcomes these choices will generate, they become part of "the plan". I still maintain that if Iluvatar is somehow "infinitely every-thing", then that must mean that absolutely every possible outcome springs from him at the instant his thought takes form, from the creation of the Ainur to the propounding of the Third Theme of Music, in which his "Children" have their beginning. It is through the gift and the burden of free will that infinite paths become narrowed and set, but even so, they still meet and entwine and branch out to form destinies and destinations unlooked for, some painfully tragic and others magnificently triumphant.

To me, the beauty of Tolkien's construct is that free will exists despite the fact of Eru's being infinitely everything. After all, what does time mean to Eru? I would say that Eru exists outside of both time and space, and therefore He necessarily knows everything of what will be, because to Him what will be is no different then what is, or what was. We see glimpses of that all-seeing vision through Mandos' eyes. The painfully tragic and magnificently triumphant destinies and destinations are unlooked for indeed, by all of Eru's creations, from the greatest of the Valar to the smallest of the lower life forms (are you reading this, Cerin?), but not to Eru Herself. And yet each of those creations must exercise its own free will in order to achieve Eru's vision.

Quote:

In one of his letters, Tolkien says something to the effect that in gifting the Ainur with both free will and the powers of subcreation, Iluvatar must accept all the potential outcomes born from these forces as part of the great unfolding tale that he began. The only assurance he gives, unchanging and absolute, is that no "subdesign" conceived by any one of them can ultimately usurp the greater themes of his thought, and though individuals may fall and be corrupted, though death and pain and despair may long hold sway, no evil can overcome the blessedness of his Children, for whom Arda was created.

I'll address this paragraph later.

I just lost my entire post.

A looooong post in answer to both Ath and V.

Damn.

<no draft either>

Back later with a re-creation.

That sucks, Sassy. But please do try to recapture at least some of it. I have found that sometimes when this has happened to me and I have had to rewrite something from scratch, that the thoughts are actually sharper and more focused the second time around, so that I can say what I meant to say in less words.

Or many its just delusional laziness.

<I'm not at all sure that this re-creation is either sharper or more focused.
The gist is similar but I've lost some insight>

Be that as it may:

“Sense is what you make of itâ€

I just want to say that I am reading along in this discussion with great interest, and will certainly post when and if I have anything to add. That last paragraph of Ath's, for example, is quite a lode of possible discussion. It pretty closely echoes my own understanding of Eru's relationship to Time and is how I have always reconciled our free will with Eru/God's absolute knowledge of what will be.

With history's records, we have a rough ability to "see" what has happened in the past. Does our knowing that Napoleon chose to march on Moscow mean that Napoleon did not, at the time, have the freedom to choose not to march?

Prim, which last paragraph are you referring to?

Actually Prim, that last quote was from Voronwe.

OT:
As for Napoleon (or Hitler for that matter) in my soft deterministic view, given his character and the political climate of the time,
it was more likely than not that he would choose to invade Russia.

Who we are determines the way we think. And the way we think determines our actions.

This is why I'm not fit to participate—too tired and fuddled even to attribute things correctly. Of course, that was Voronwë. Sorry, Voronwë!

Sass, I could have picked a better example from history, then. There certainly have been times when people have simply chosen one course of action over another. My point is that they did have choice, even though we now know the outcome (because we happen to live after them).

I think of Eru's knowledge of all that will be as a similar thing—Eru knowing the outcome does not change the free choice available to the person in the moment, at the time. Eru sees it as we see a mountain: it is. Our seeing the mountain doesn't cause the mountain.