board77

The Last Homely Site on the Web

Sil Disc: Ch. 9-Of the Flight of the Noldor

Post Reply   Page 1 of 8  [ 149 posts ]
Jump to page 1 2 3 4 58 »
Author Message
Ethel
Post subject: Sil Disc: Ch. 9-Of the Flight of the Noldor
Posted: Sun 06 Mar , 2005 1:57 pm
The Pirate's Daughter
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 747
Joined: Tue 11 Jan , 2005 7:17 pm
Location: Four Corners
 
Ready, everyone?

Okay, first of all - I am no Tolkien scholar. My approach to reading The Silmarillion is: I am just a reader, this is just a book. It’s an unusual book, of course. It’s a lot more like reading scripture or mythology than a novel. The language is “high” and it has that cryptic density one finds in mythology. I hope it will not offend anyone if I’m sometimes flippant or irreverent.

Ainulindalë and Valaquenta (summaries)


Ainulindalë (The Music of the Ainur)
I’m not drawn by creation myths – when I’m reading mythology I tend to want to skip over the creation part and get right to the stories of the heroes. To me they all have a certain sameness: there was nothing, then there was something. Even in the Bible, for me Genesis doesn’t really get going until Adam and Eve show up. But I guess you have to begin at the beginning.

I do find it charming that Ilúvatar (luminous father?) creates the world by first thinking up the Ainur (angels?), teaching them to sing, and having them sing the world into being. Does anyone know - are there other creation myths that involve singing up the world?

But there’s trouble in paradise, starting right in paragraph five. Melkor, like many talented children, does not play well with others. He doesn’t want to sing Ilúvatar’s melodies; he wants to make up his own. During the “clash of the musics” part I was imagining the good Ainur producing something like the second movement of Beethoven’s Seventh Symphony, while Melkor and those who joined him sounded like – oh, Eminem maybe.

It’s interesting the Ainur were unaware that their music was creating the world. Can anyone shed light on this business of the Children of Ilúvatar being conceived by him alone, in the “third theme”? I mean, weren’t the Ainur singing the third theme too? Even though there were two third themes (Beethoven’s Seventh and Eminem)? I think it’s nice that the Ainur loved us when they saw us though. :)

I sometimes think I can hear the music of the Ainur in water sounds. It’s a lovely thought, isn’t it?

We are introduced to some Ainur. Ulmo is associated with water and music; Manwë with air and wind and nobility; Aulë with the Earth, skills, and making. Melkor, however, who already seems to have gone to the bad, is associated with dominance and extremes of temperature.

But… turns out the world is actually just a vision at this point. It doesn’t actually come into being until Ilúvatar says the magic word Eä. Then the Ainur are split into those who dwell with Ilúvatar outside the world, and the Valar who dwell within the world. I’m curious about this, about how the choice was made about who would dwell where, but it’s passed over quickly.

Upon descending into the world, the Valar find out that the vision they had seen was really just a blueprint or something – the world had been conceived and created but not yet given form. So Manwë and Aulë and Ulmo set to the work of creation, hindered ever by that creep Melkor. Manwë decides he needs allies and “called unto himself many spirits both greater and less”… I gather these are other Ainur he is calling from the side of Ilúvatar?

I’m curious about where Melkor withdrew to after the strife with the other Valar.

The Valar resemble the gods of Greek or Nordic mythology in a lot of ways – powerful creative spirits each with special areas of interest, who can take human form. Unlike the Greek gods, though, all the Valar save Melkor seem to be “good”. There’s only one bad one, but he’s the most powerful one, and Arda is born in strife. Melkor is described as a kind of big baby, knocking down mountains as fast as the others can build them.


Valaquenta (Account of the Valar and Maiar according to the lore of the Eldar)

Of the Valar
Thought I’d list a quick summary of names and their associations for easy reference. I bolded the ones who are “of chief power and reverence.”

Manwë is mightiest, associated with the sky, language, song, and the color blue
Varda is his queen, associated with stars and beauty

Ulmo is the lord of waters; he’s a loner

Aulë is lord of the lands, associated with skill, craftsmanship and building
Yavanna is his queen, associated with green growing things

Mandos is the place where Námo dwells; he keeps the Dead
Vairë is his queen, the weaver (like the Greek fates?)

Lórien is the place where Irmo dwells, master of visions and dreams
Estë is his queen, healer of hurts

Nienna sorrows for the world, alone

Tulkas is a warrior and “of no avail as a counselor”
Nessa is his queen, and she’s all about running and dancing

Oromë is the hunter and lord of the forests
Vána is his queen, associated with spring

Ahem. Does anyone notice anything missing here? There is no avatar for love! How like Tolkien to have created a mythology that omitted any such figure.

Of the Maiar
These are “of the same order as the Valar but of less degree.” There seem to be a lot of them, but most are unknown to the Eldar. We are briefly introduced to several.

Of the Enemies
Hellooooo, Melkor! Apparently that name means “he who arises in might” so the Elves call him Morgoth “the dark enemy of the world”.

He is evil because he is arrogant. He has contempt for all but himself. Some of the Maiar are drawn to him. We only hear about the Balrogs, though, and Gorthaur the Cruel, later known as Sauron.


*******************

I have to say that, for me, the first few chapters of the Sil are the hardest to read. I guess I just relate better to Elves than to Ainur/Valar. I look forward to the comments of the more creation mythology inclined, however. :)

Last edited by Ethel on Sun 20 Mar , 2005 4:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
Profile Quote
Voronwë_the_Faithful
Post subject:
Posted: Sun 06 Mar , 2005 4:17 pm
Offline
 
Posts: 5176
Joined: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 6:53 pm
Contact: Website
 
Too much to comment on. Brain hurts. :Q


Top
Profile Quote
Primula_Baggins
Post subject:
Posted: Sun 06 Mar , 2005 4:25 pm
Living in hope
Offline
 
Posts: 7291
Joined: Sat 29 Jan , 2005 5:54 pm
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
 
Yes. Ow.

But a lovely, funny summary, Ethel. I think the final result should be archived somewhere here as the Silmarillion Cliff's Notes.

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Athrabeth
Post subject:
Posted: Sun 06 Mar , 2005 6:28 pm
Nameless
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 692
Joined: Wed 23 Feb , 2005 2:17 am
Location: On the Way
 
Ethel!

A wonderful summary! But like Voronwe and Prim, it will take me some time to zero in on certain sections for comment. These first few pages of the Sil created quite a lengthy discussion over at TORC, mostly centered on the foundation of evil and the fall of Melkor, of predestination and free will. It will interesting to see how the discussion here will take form and direction.
Quote:
Does anyone know - are there other creation myths that involve singing up the world?
The Apache myth has a creator that sings the earth and sky into existence. It is not a "grand music" however, but more like a chant, repeated four times, a number of power and magic. It's a lovely story.

_________________

[ img ]
"The pie that can be eaten is not the Eternal Pie."


Top
Profile Quote
Ethel
Post subject:
Posted: Sun 06 Mar , 2005 6:47 pm
The Pirate's Daughter
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 747
Joined: Tue 11 Jan , 2005 7:17 pm
Location: Four Corners
 
Too much at once, huh? Maybe I need to adjust the schedule so it's in smaller chunks...

Or how about if I list a few things I would like to discuss further? Such as:

***********************

Melkor seemed to go bad right out of the gate. Makes you wonder why Ilúvatar didn't squash him right away. There's some talk in Ainulindalë about how Melkor's "bitter cold immoderate" creates snow and frost, which are beautiful. And Ilúvatar says, "And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

But that doesn't seem to be quite the case once we get to Arda. Melkor makes a huge mess of it, over and over again. Or do you think the creation of Valinor, where the Valar escaped from Melkor after the first war, would fall under the heading of "devising of things more wonderful"?

***********************

What familiar face is missing in the list of the Valar? It really jumped out at me this time for some reason. No goddess of love! Can you think of another pantheon that doesn't include one? I guess it isn't surprising because of Tolkien's careful avoidance of sexuality in all his work. Clearly it was a deliberate choice - this man knew his mythology. All the other human passions seem to be present and accounted for. Was Tolkien just too embarrassed to include this elemental force?

***********************

Last edited by Ethel on Sun 20 Mar , 2005 3:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Top
Profile Quote
Jnyusa
Post subject:
Posted: Sun 06 Mar , 2005 7:51 pm
One of the Bronte Sisters
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 5107
Joined: Tue 04 Jan , 2005 8:54 am
Location: In Situ
 
I too must apologize that I haven't even finished Donaldson yet, much less started the Sil - though I've read it twice before so it's not new territory.

*****
The first time I read the Sil I intensenly disliked the creation myth for two reasons:
(1) I was expecting something else. :)
(2) It was Milton with Elvish props.

More recently I have come to appreciate the importance of creating by means of music rather than by means of light, and I am wondering how and why Tolkien hit on this configuration.

It occurs to me that at the time he was writing the Sil, the newest theory in physics - the one that was well-known enough to be covered extensively in the press - concerned the speed of light as the speed limit of the universe.

Genesis had just been reduced to a law of physics.

Did Tolkien feel that if science had co-opted light, then myth must begin with something else? Or is there something about the harmonic of music that struck him as more apt metaphor? Has he addressed this in his writings? (I just bought my own copy of Letters a few weeks ago, but I had read it several times before and don't recall anything about this.)

Today it is music that is presented by physics as the basic building block of the universe. Was Tolkien prescient, or would he have been disappointed and felt that this 'invalidated' the use of music in his myth?

These are the questions I've been asking myself most recently.

Regarding the character of Melkor ... Melkor is himself a creation of Iluvatar ... and so the consequences of Melkor's creation must have been anticipated. To create a creature that can create on his own ... or several who can do so, as Ethel points out (Aule and Yavanna as well) ... this is a special kind of vision, and one that largely frightens us, I think. We have all these sci-fi scenarios of AI run amok - the machine that turns on its creator, the war between them. And before the sci-fi version, there was the Oedipal version - the child who kills his own father.

I think that this fear of our own creative power is a deep theme in human story-telling, and the 'god' who enables such autonomous creation to exist is the mythical anodyne for our fears.

Jn

_________________

"All things considered, I'd rather be in Philadelphia."
Epigraph on the tombstone of W.C. Fields.


Top
Profile Quote
Athrabeth
Post subject:
Posted: Sun 06 Mar , 2005 10:57 pm
Nameless
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 692
Joined: Wed 23 Feb , 2005 2:17 am
Location: On the Way
 
Sass wrote:
Is the Marring of Arda determined from the very inception of Iluvatar's thought? And is Melkor the way in which it is meant to be realised?
IMO, the possibility of the Marring or Arda was determined, which, I think, is very much different than it being determined "in and of itself" by Iluvatar.

If the thought of Iluvatar is without limit, how could it NOT have included the fall of Melkor and subsequent introduction of evil into Arda through the process of its creation? But does this mean the same thing as the fall being predetermined?

To my mind, if Iluvatar had "edited" out the potential evil that must, like all the potential "paths" of Arda's creation and evolution, have its source within the infinite possibilities of his thought, then he truly would have been predetermining the fate of the world.

edited to add: The free will/determinism puzzle is a favourite of mine too, Sass! :love:

_________________

[ img ]
"The pie that can be eaten is not the Eternal Pie."


Top
Profile Quote
Voronwë_the_Faithful
Post subject:
Posted: Sun 06 Mar , 2005 11:53 pm
Offline
 
Posts: 5176
Joined: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 6:53 pm
Contact: Website
 
[Note: I wrote this earlier, before Sass and 'Beth posted. I'm sending it as is anwyay]

I reread part of the discussion we had at TORC about the Ainulindalë just to remind myself of my own thoughts at the time (and those of others, of course. Something Teremia said I think is very relevant to Jn's comment about Tolkien's choice of having creation come from music.
Teremia wrote:
the thing about music is that accident and purpose do indeed coexist -- and even depend on each other -- there. The oxymoronic coexistence of accident and purpose is, I think, an intrinsic part of human life, however, even outside of orchestras.
I don't really have anything to add to that.

Most of our discussion lingered on the question of whether the fall of Melkor was preordained. I'm going to repeat some of what I said before, although some of it may seem a bit out of context without the comments of the people I was responding to. I don't think it is my place to put words in their mouths (even if it is their own words. Almost all of the people I was responding to are here and will hopefully express their own opinions themselves.

To me, Melkor's true role in the story is to explain the Fall of Man. It is my opinion that he was created by Eru for a particular purpose (at least to the extent that the "purpose" of Eru can be comprehended by any mortal). Surely Eru knew that, having the nature that Eru created him with, Melkor would turn to prideful evil. Melkor is the ultimate "jack of all trades but master of none". There was no other path for Melkor to take because Melkor represents the part of Iluvator himself that necessarily leads to discord, which itself is a necessary part of the universe of infinite possiblilities. Melkor was created by Eru in such a way that he was bound to rebel.

I will repeat one other statement that someone else made, because it has stuck with me ever since I read it.
Guess Who? wrote:
I think I would say that Arda Marred is the result of the necessary inclusion of free will, from inception, into Iluvatar's creations.
I look forward to seeing the thoughts about some of these subjects of the folks that were not part of that discussion, as well the thoughts of the ones who were.

Last edited by Voronwë_the_Faithful on Mon 07 Mar , 2005 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
Profile Quote
Sassafras
Post subject:
Posted: Sun 06 Mar , 2005 11:58 pm
through the looking glass
Offline
 
Posts: 2241
Joined: Wed 02 Feb , 2005 2:40 am
 
Ath wrote:....If the thought of Iluvatar is without limit, how could it NOT have included the fall of Melkor and subsequent introduction of evil into Arda through the process of its creation? But does this mean the same thing as the fall being predetermined?


Nice one, Ath. :)

But then that leads one (this one anyway) into the thought that if ALL of the Ainur were created with a full range of possibilities, both positive and negative, what is the liklihood that only ONE (Melkor) succumbed to the dark side, and all the rest stayed on the straight and narrow? That Melkor was irredeemably destructive without even a hint of goodness.

It's like deja vu all over again isn't it? :D


Top
Profile Quote
Ethel
Post subject:
Posted: Mon 07 Mar , 2005 12:18 am
The Pirate's Daughter
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 747
Joined: Tue 11 Jan , 2005 7:17 pm
Location: Four Corners
 
Sassafras wrote:
But then that leads one (this one anyway) into the thought that if ALL of the Ainur were created with a full range of possibilities, both positive and negative, what is the liklihood that only ONE (Melkor) succumbed to the dark side, and all the rest stayed on the straight and narrow?
But they didn't. Many - we're never told how many - of the Maiar gravitated to Team Evil along with Melkor. Aulë seriously overstepped his bounds by creating the dwarves, though he was repentant when Ilúvatar called him on it.

To me the text reads as if Tolkien intended us to understand that Melkor (and all the Ainur) was created with free will. The fact that he has already gone bad by paragraph five suggests that Melkor was created with a pretty strong propensity for rebellion, but I suppose you could argue that a propensity is not the same thing as a certainty. Maybe Ilúvatar was just a big optimist. Or maybe his creation couldn't be considered complete without allowing at least the possibility of evil.

Then again... to me, Melkor (and later Sauron, and for that matter the Orcs) comes close to being a literary convention. Mr Plot Point. His motivation is not comprehensible. He's just evil. And there needs to be evil for there to be a story. My sense is that motivations for evil wasn't something Tolkien wanted to spend a lot of thought or time on.


Top
Profile Quote
Voronwë_the_Faithful
Post subject:
Posted: Mon 07 Mar , 2005 3:41 am
Offline
 
Posts: 5176
Joined: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 6:53 pm
Contact: Website
 
Ethel wrote:
But they didn't. Many - we're never told how many - of the Maiar gravitated to Team Evil along with Melkor. Aulë seriously overstepped his bounds by creating the dwarves, though he was repentant when Ilúvatar called him on it.
But the difference is that the Maiar that gravitated to Team Evil were seduced to teh dark side by Melkor. And while Aule did over step his bounds it was not with evil intent.
Quote:
My sense is that motivations for evil wasn't something Tolkien wanted to spend a lot of thought or time on.
I think that the question that Tolkien is more interested in is why does evil exist in the first place?


Top
Profile Quote
Nin
Post subject:
Posted: Mon 07 Mar , 2005 5:04 pm
Per aspera ad astra
Offline
 
Posts: 3388
Joined: Thu 28 Oct , 2004 6:53 am
Location: Zu Hause
 
I am so impressed by reading that I don't dare to say anything any more.

_________________

Nichts Schöneres unter der Sonne als unter der Sonne zu sein.
(Ingeborg Bachmann)


Top
Profile Quote
Alatar
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 08 Mar , 2005 4:28 pm
of Vinyamar
Offline
 
Posts: 8274
Joined: Mon 28 Feb , 2005 4:39 pm
Location: Ireland
Contact: ICQ
 
I thought I'd do a quick check to find what I could about any other Creation Myths that involved creation by Song. The only one I could find was this one about Hopi Creation Myths. It may be of interest.
Encyclopaedia of Creation Myths wrote:
Hopi Creation

As is appropriate for a society that is to this day matrilineal (that is, a person belongs primarily to the mother's family and property is passed down from the mother), the Hopi creation myth is dominated by the female creative principle, Hard Beings Woman (Hurúing Wuhti) or sometimes Spider Woman or both. Like the female element in other creation myths, this woman is associated with the Earth Mother, and, not surprisingly, the creation is of the emergence type (see also Creation by Emergence). The male principle, Tawa, is the divine creative energy represented by the sun. Familiar motifs in the Hopi myth include the division of the divine parents into new forms, creation by thought, and the idea of creation by song, which perhaps has its source in the ritual song-dance ceremonies the Hopis learned from their ancient ancestors, the Anasazis (see also Creation by Word; Creation from Division of Primordial Unity).

One version of the Hopi creation says that in the beginning were Spider Woman (the earth goddess) and Tawa (the sun god). Tawa controlled heaven and its mysteries; Spider Woman's precinct was earth. The two lived in Spider Woman's lair, Under-the-World. They were all-in-all in those days but were not husband and wife.

Longing for company, Tawa divided himself into Tawa and Muiyinwuh, the god of life energy. Spider Woman divided into Spider Woman and Huzruiwuhti, goddess of life forms. Huzruiwuhti and Tawa became a couple, and from their union came the Holy Twins, the Four Corners, the Up and the Down, and the Great Serpent.

Spider Woman and Tawa had the Sacred Thought, which was of placing the world between the Up and Down within the Four Corners in the void that was the Eternal Waters. The Thought became the first song: "Father of all, Life and Light I am," sang Tawa. "Mother of all, receiver of Light and weaver of Life I am," sang Spider Woman.

"My Thought is of creatures that fly in the Up and run in the Down and swim in the Eternal Waters," sang the god.

"May the Thought live," intoned Spider Woman, and she formed it of clay.

Together the first gods placed a sacred blanket over the new beings and chanted the song of life. The beings stirred into Life.

The first gods were not yet pleased, however, so Tawa thought of beings like Spider Woman and himself, who could rule over the world between the Up and Down within the Four Corners, and Spider Woman formed the new thought into man and woman, whom she cradled in her arms until they breathed life.

Instructed to multiply, the man, woman, and other creatures did so, and when there were enough, Spider Woman led them through the four worlds of Under-the-World to the spider hole or sipapu that led to the world between Up and Down within the Four Corners, where Tawa sent his all-seeing warmth and light as he made a daily journey overhead.

Spider Woman made clans, established villages, and instructed the people on how to keep life and form. The men must hunt, she said, and grow the corn. The women must build and keep the houses and lead the families. The men must build underground places—kivas—where clans would meet and send messages to the Gods and from which the people could emerge for new beginnings after hearing the myth of their original emergence into
the world. She told the people how to call the Great Serpent, who would strike the earth and give rain to make the crops grow. Before descending back to Under-the-World, Spider Woman called all the clans together. "Do as I have taught," she said, "and you will prosper. Be sure that Tawa and I will always watch over you."

In some Hopi myths it is Tawa or Taiowa who is the original creator.
Alatar


Top
Profile Quote
theduffster
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 08 Mar , 2005 11:46 pm
Damn those Amish!!
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 938
Joined: Fri 25 Feb , 2005 12:16 am
Location: in racist Western Pa.
Contact: Website
 
I dunno, Alatar. For me, any Spider Woman would be Ungoliant. :D Just sayin'!

For myself, I have always been moved most by the concept of the "flame imperishable". As a Christian, I have always seen this as a manifestation of The Holy Spirit. Anyone have other non-Christian thoughts as to what this could be?

_________________

[ img ]

Gob: Return from whence you came!!


Top
Profile Quote
theduffster
Post subject:
Posted: Fri 11 Mar , 2005 1:56 am
Damn those Amish!!
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 938
Joined: Fri 25 Feb , 2005 12:16 am
Location: in racist Western Pa.
Contact: Website
 
...crickets...

_________________

[ img ]

Gob: Return from whence you came!!


Top
Profile Quote
Andri
Post subject:
Posted: Fri 11 Mar , 2005 9:18 am
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 255
Joined: Tue 01 Feb , 2005 7:23 pm
Location: running after my kids
 
Voronwe_the_Faithful wrote:
Teremia wrote:
the thing about music is that accident and purpose do indeed coexist -- and even depend on each other -- there. The oxymoronic coexistence of accident and purpose is, I think, an intrinsic part of human life, however, even outside of orchestras.
Voronwe, I don't really understand Teremia's point. What does she mean with accident? Does she mean that pieces of music are composed by accident?
Is it possible that you could add the rest of her post so that the quote makes more sense? Thanks.

I looked at Tolkien's letters but found no reference to his views on music. Does anyone know whether he discussed them in some other book? Or maybe in a letter that I missed?

In the Christian cosmology the universe is created through sound as well - the word of God. Could it be that Tolkien, been a devout Christian, understood creation in the same terms but didn't want to make Illuvatar appear the same with the Christian God and so made him use music rather than prose?
Ethel wrote:
The fact that he has already gone bad by paragraph five suggests that Melkor was created with a pretty strong propensity for rebellion, but I suppose you could argue that a propensity is not the same thing as a certainty
I don't see Melkor as being created with a propensity for rebellion. I think that the quality that was typical of him was his egoism. Rebellion is what naturally followed out of this.
Tolkien write that .....
'But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Iluvatar; for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself'


Good thing I am not a Hopi indian. As I am terrified of spiders, the idea that I would have to believe in (and even cherish) Spiderwoman is more that I can handle. :Q


Top
Profile Quote
Dindraug
Post subject:
Posted: Sun 13 Mar , 2005 3:25 pm
Tricksy Elf!
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 2306
Joined: Wed 27 Oct , 2004 6:20 pm
Location: Tanelorn
 
Voronwe_the_Faithful wrote:
I think that the question that Tolkien is more interested in is why does evil exist in the first place?
I think This was fundamental to Tolkien's belief and world view, and is possibly the most important issue in his writing. The idea that Eru is neither good nor evil, but allows evil to be created by Melkor has all sorts of implications in his own religious views. I am not sure he did not struggle with them throughout his life, and that in his writing we see that represented. Did Eru allow evil or create it, and if he just allowed it, why?

I always feel sorry for Melkor, in the same way I feel sorry for Lucifer in the Christian myth, or Loki in the (admittedly corrupted) Norse myth or even poor old Hades. They all have a pretty bad role to for fill, but the world or mythos cannot function without some poor sap filling that role. And in the background sits a whiter than white figure who dictates/conducts/allows all of this.

My major problem with the music, which has never fully been explained to me is that if the Ainur know what is happening, because they see the song and can presumably see who is singing which bits, why did they let it happen. Was it wiped from their minds, or did they have no choice? Lets face it, you are a Maiar, you see the song, you get dragged in by Melkor's rhythm section, and later in the song you are drowned, disembodied, dispelled and eventually driven into the outer hell by a couple of hobbits. wouldn't you just go 'No Melkor, I am not joining you, I am going to make pretty rings with Auel'.

I have always struggled with free will and determinism ;)

_________________

'When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from delusion, it is called Religion'.

~Robert M. Pirsig


Top
Profile Quote
Voronwë_the_Faithful
Post subject:
Posted: Sun 13 Mar , 2005 10:02 pm
Offline
 
Posts: 5176
Joined: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 6:53 pm
Contact: Website
 
Din, you ask excellent questions! I have only short answers to them; hopefully some others have more comprehensive ones.

As to the question of why Eru created Evil or allowed Evil to be created, I think the answer is that Evil has to exist or Good cannot exist. The full spectrum of possibilities must exist. Melkor was not necessarily predestined to become evil; he was just the most suited for the job. The question that was unresolved in our TORC Silmarillion discussion was since Manwe and Melkor were brethren in Eru's thought, could it have been Manwe that turned to evil. I go back and forth on this question, but I believe that the answer is no. I'm really hoping that some others will continue to address this question, both of those who already started to do so at TORC, and those who were not part of that discussion.

I will, however, add the quote from Tolkien's letters that I quoted before, because I think it gives great insight into Tolkien's thinking on this subject:
Tolkien, in letter 212 wrote:
I suppose the difference between this Myth and what may be perhaps called Christian mythology is this: in the latter the Fall of Man is subsequent to and a consequence (though not a necessary consequence) of the 'Fall of the Angels': a rebellion of created free-will at a higher-level than Man; but it is not clearly held (and in many versions is not held at all) that this affected the 'World' in its nature: evil was brought in from outside, by Satan. In this Myth the rebellion of created free-will precedes creation of the World (Eä); and Eä has in it, subcreatively introduced, evil, rebellions, discordant elements of its own nature already when the Let it Be was spoken. The Fall or corruption, therefore, of all things in it and all inhabitants of it, was a possibility if not inevitable.
As for the question of why some of the Ainur followed Melkor the answer is quite simple: because his will was stronger then theirs were. I'm sure we have all seen examples of people doing things that they should not have done because they were influenced by someone with a more powerful will then they had.

Now, turning back to Andri's question, first let me apologize for taking so long to respond. I have been somewhat preoccupied with other things. But even more, I've shied away from responding because I realize that I never should have quoted Teremia in the first place, particularly without the benefit of the context in which her comments were made. I would definitely encourage you to go back and read that discussion beginning here to find her full post and subsequent comments.

For myself, I take her comment to be similar to the one that I made above about Evil being necessary for Good. All music has structure. That is the Purpose that she refers. But all music goes beyond its structure, particularly when it is music made by more then one individual, because each musician is influenced by the other musicians. That is what I take to be the "accident" that she refers to. The music that I play is a very good example of this. For those who don't know, I play West African percussion. This music is extraordinarily structured, and yet there is a tremendous about of room for the musicians to interact with each other. Like Teremia (I think) I find in music a very strong metaphor of the nature of reality itself.[/quote]


Top
Profile Quote
Alatar
Post subject:
Posted: Mon 14 Mar , 2005 12:26 pm
of Vinyamar
Offline
 
Posts: 8274
Joined: Mon 28 Feb , 2005 4:39 pm
Location: Ireland
Contact: ICQ
 
Ok. I'll post my thoughts here, limited though they are. I'm not one for Taoist or Jungian comparisons, or Joseph Campbell, or whatever. I'm a simple sort of guy!

Iluvatar created the Ainur, the "offspring of his thought". They are part of him as much as our children are part of us. We raise our children, we teach them our values, they share our genetic makeup, but this does not mean that we control them. They have free will. The same is true of Melkor. He was created by Iluvatar. He is part of Iluvatar. That does not mean that Iluvatar controls him or created him for the purpose of introducing evil into Arda. Because Iluvatar gave Melkor and the other Ainur free will it is only logical that at least one of them would choose a different patch, in this case the path of evil. Melkor's nature made him emminently suitable to be that being. As I said in the other thread, we are told that Manwe and Melkor were most alike in power, so it cannot be his "strength" that suited him to evil. It was his choice. Without choice free will is meaningless.

Sass argues that the marring of Arda was predetermined and that Melkor was predetermined to be the instrument of that marring. I would argue that the marring of Arda was inevitable once free will was granted and that if Melkor had not become Evil, another of the Ainur or Maiar would have. All of the Maiar who followed Melkor obviously had the same potential for evil. In the absence of a "Dark Lord" would they all have remained meek and willing servants of Manwe? I think not.

In short, Melkor by his nature was perhaps the most likely to fall, but his fall was not predetermined. It was his choice. His failing was pride and ambition, a common enemy in Tolkien. Melkor, Feanor, Thingol, Turgon, Maeglin, Turin, Boromir and Denethor among others all suffered from it. Does that mean they were evil?

I'll be back later to discuss further!

Alatar

_________________

[ img ]
These are my friends, see how they glisten...


Top
Profile Quote
Berhael
Post subject:
Posted: Mon 14 Mar , 2005 12:45 pm
Milk and kisses
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 4417
Joined: Wed 27 Oct , 2004 11:03 am
Location: lost in translation
 
Catching up too... thanks for slowing down the discussion! :) I've made some notes on the first chapters, I'll be back with them when I've finished reading what everybody else has posted (so as not to repeat points).


Top
Profile Quote
Display: Sort by: Direction:
Post Reply   Page 1 of 8  [ 149 posts ]
Return to “Literary Rambles: There & Back Again...” | Jump to page 1 2 3 4 58 »
Jump to: