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As always, a great discussion, V and Sass!

Sass wrote:

First of all. Why a spider?

I think the symbolism of her physical manifestation is near perfect. What other creature of the real world can suck the living juices out of its prey, and then internally transform that energy into a substance that can then be used to entrap and bind other victims? Ew!!

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I've been thinking about Ungoliant for days ... thinking about her greed and her ability to devour light. Her need which, if I may say so, goes far beyond any analogy of a junkie's craving. It is a necessity. She cannot exist without consuming light and in fact, eventually, deprived of light she does starve.

I’m not so sure that Ungoliant can’t exist without consuming light. Tolkien tells us that she takes “all things to herself to feed her emptiness”. All things. She devours the jewels that Melkor stole from Formenos, she devours her foul mates in Ered Gorgoroth, she even devours herself in the end. But light is her greatest desire, the “food” (“fix”?) she craves more than any other. I find the line “she hungered for light and hated it” very powerful. It reminds me very much of what Gandalf said of Gollum and the Ring: “He hated it and loved it, as he hated and loved himself”. I’ve always found that thought incredibly sad. Poor, wicked, tormented Smeagol, caught in this inescapable and destructive web of lust and loathing. I suppose I’m feeling more inclined to think of Ungoliant in a similar way now that we have been discussing the symbolism of light in Tolkien’s mythos. Does she hunger for light because she is drawn to all it represents: love, hope, mercy, blessedness? Does she hate it because her emptiness is all the more unbearable next to the fullness of its glory? Is Ungoliant, deep down, unknowingly, seeking some kind of redemption – to somehow touch the infinite presence of Iluvatar so that her great emptiness can finally be filled, her anguish ended, her hunger abated. Poor, wicked, tormented Ungoliant, seeking to fill the nothingness within her with the purity and beauty of light, only to turn it into a greater nothingness, an “Unlight” that is as void as the Darkness from which she came, as empty as her very being.

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What is her nature? (Is it meaningful that she is a she and not an it or a he?) Is she the complimentary Yin to Melkor's Yang as Ath suggests? I don't think of her darkness as the opposite of light. It is denser than that ... more like a black hole which crushes and annihilates light transforming it into molecular darkness.

I absolutely love that description, Sass! Actually, I wasn’t trying to say that she is the opposite of light. I see many of her “wicked qualities” as “complimentary opposites” to Melkor’s evil nature. To me, Melkor’s driving energy is more about open destruction, mastery over others, overt power, while Ungoliant’s is more about hidden suffocation, mastery over herself alone, subversive power. Melkor wants the Silmarils as a symbol of the magnitude of his greatness in Arda, to bear them as a “king”. Ungoliant desires no such outward manifestations of power; all she wants is to consume them, to smother their existence within the void that is her being. I may think of her now as “poor, wicked, tormented Ungoliant”, but she is nonetheless a far more horrific and fearsome creature to me than the Morgoth: she is emptiness itself.

Voronwë wrote:

One of the most interesting concepts is that she was considered to be "descended from the darkness" that lies about Arda. Descended from the darkness. This idea of darkness as something in and of itself, and not just simply the lack of light repeats itself in reverse at the end of the chapter, when "Ungoliant belched forth black vapors", causing "a Darkness that was more than loss of light ... a Darkness that seemed not lack but a thing with being of its own: for it was indeed made by malice out of Light, and it had power to pierce the eye, and to enter heart and mind, and strangle the very will."

It is indeed a chilling thought, Voronwë. Once again, I am reminded of a passage in LOTR, when the cries of the Nazgul over the besieged Minas Tirith causes a darkness to enter the hearts of its defenders: “At length even the stout hearted would fling themselves to the ground as the hidden menace passed over them, or they would stand, letting their weapons fall from nerveless hands , while into their minds a blackness came, and they thought no more of war, but only of hiding, and of crawling, and of death.”

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Certainly the Valar are to be considered wise. Yet Tolkien could not have been unaware of how curiously ineffective they could be. So what was his intention in presenting them in this way? Or was this just a product of the story that he was telling?

It’s an intriguing question to ponder, but I don’t know if it can ever be answered conclusively. It’s almost as if the Valar, when they became bound to the physical world of time and space, lost something of their memories of the Music and the Vision, rather like the Istari losing a clear recollection of their “home” when they take on their corporeal bodies. It seems that they must learn the terrible and risky business of living within a world marred by evil, that the unfolding story of the Children of Iluvatar determines the fate of all things within Arda, and supercedes even the powers of the Valar, for they are not the storytellers.

I also think that the attack of Melkor and Ungoliant would have been far less horrific, far less potent for the reader, if they had to battle their way into the Blessed Realm, or even work to avoid the watchful eyes of guardtowers and sentinels. It’s like the embodiment of purity and sacredness being ravished before our eyes, without even a fighting chance to defend itself. We want to cry out a warning, to spur some kind of defence, but instead must watch the terrible sacrifice of innocence and know that nothing within Arda, not the Eldar or the Valar, or Aman itself, will ever be untouched by this ultimate defilement.

Time to continue the lonely journey.

Chapter 9, Of the Flight of the Noldor, is one of the most critical chapters of the Silmarillion story. It sets the stage for all of the tragedy that follows. I particularly like the ambiguity that Tolkien manages to create between good and evil. Feanor and the rest of Noldor are certainly admirable figures in many ways. And yet they do great evil. The ability to show how it is that such admirable personages could come to do such great evil is one of Tolkien's greatest accomplishments, in my humble opinion.

We begin with a great concourse at the Ring of Doom, under the stars of Varda. The winds of Manwe have chased away "the vapours of death", but the Light of the Trees is no more. Yavanna presents to Feanor a hard choice, to allow the Silmarils to be broken so that the light they hold could be used by Yavanna to revive the Trees. Aule alone knows what this choice means to Feanor, who declares that if the Silmarils are broken it will break his heart and he will be slain, first of all the Eldar in Aman.

But Mandos enigmatically says "Not the first," though none knew what he meant. I have always found the concept of Mandos knowing the future but not acting on it, or even revealing it until and if it is time to do so to be quite mind-boggling, and I still do. But "Not the first" soon takes on more significance.

Here, at this pivotal moment, it is the influence of his enemy, Melkor, that most affects Feanor, awaking his pride and greed. He declares that he would not do what was asked of him "of free will." He further declares that if the Valar force him they will be shown to truly be kindred of Melkor.

And Mandos says "Thou hast spoken" and Nienna "sang in mourning for the bitterness of the world and the Marring of Arda." Now Mandos knew that Feanor's father, Finwe, had already been slain by Melkor at Formenos, as shown by his "Not the first" comment. He therefore must have known also that the Silmarils had been stolen by Melkor, and that for all practical reasons the answer of Feanor was a moot point: there were no Silmarils available to break to use to revive the trees. And yet Mandos declares the importance of Feanor's words.

We have spoken much in this thread and in its precursor at TORC about free will and predestination. I believe that this was a critical moment in which Feanor could have chosen to exercise his free will and set himself (and his kindred) on a different path then the one that they ended up embarking on, leading inexorably to the Kinslaying and the Doom of Mandos, which would plague the Noldor with treason and the fear of treason throughout their exile in Middle-earth. As Tolkien says, "yet had he said yea at the first, before the tidings came from Formenos, it may be that his afer deeds would have been other than they were. But now the doom of the Noldor drew near."

But Feanor, for all his fearful pride, is yet an object of sympathy, running from the Ring of Doom and fleeing into the night for his grief at the killing of his father, who "was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless orks of his hands; and who among sons, Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?" Would the bitterness in his heart at the slaying of his father as well as the rape of his precious Silmarils not still led him to the same path even if he had freely agreed to give up the Silmarils when asked, or would his grief have been free of the madness that drove the Noldor to exile and misery? We can only speculate, but I suspect that Tolkien is suggesting that it would have.

We then turn to the squabbling of thieves. Ungoliant demands full payment for her assistance "with both hands." Melkor is grudgingly willing to give up the jewels of Formenos with his left hand, but he is not willing to give up the Silmarils with his right hand (interesting symbolism there), even though they had already begun to cause him pain. But Ungoliant has grown great and would have vanguished Melkor but for the Balrogs that come in response to his great cry. Thus ironically, these spirits of flame save the creations of Feanor, who's name meant "Spirit of Fire", from being utterly devoured by Ungoliant, as Yavanna feared they would. And Ungoliant passes out of the tale altogether, though her off-spring cause misery down the ages. And Melkor sets himself up as the King of the World, setting the Silmarils in his crown, though his hands are burnt black and he is never again free of the pain of them. Doesn't sound like real good decisionmaking to me.

Meanwhile, Feanor shows up back at Tirion where he was still banished from, his first direct violation of the Valar's will. And he stirs up the Noldor with a great speech, stirring the Noldor to madness. "His wrath and his hate were given most to Morgoth, and yet well nigh all that he said came from the very lies of Morgoth." But Feanor knew his brethren well and ever appealed ever to their own pride.

"For we will go further than Orome, endure longer than Tulkas: we will never turn back from pursuit. After Morgoth to the ends of the Earth! War shall he have and hatred undying. But when we have conquired and have regained the Silmarils, then we and we alone shall be lords of the unsullied Light, and masters of the bliss and beauty of Arda. No other race shall oust us!"

Then Feanor takes the action that binds his sons inexorably to his turn to evil. He and they swear the Oath of Feanor, "an oath that none shall break, and none should take, by the name of Iluvator himself, calling the Everlasting Darkness upon themselves if the fail to pursue any being great or small, good or evil who takes or holds or keeps a Silmaril from their possession (sounds a bit like Microsoft, but that's another discussion).

Then Fingolfin and his son Turgon spoke hotly against Feanor (though we don't know quite what they said), once again awaking wrath. Finarfin and his son Orodreth tried to calm their kindred. Galadriel was eager to be gone as well, for she even then yearned to rule a a realm at her own will in teh wide unguarded lands, as did Fingon, Fingolfin's son. But though Feanor set aflame the greater part of the Noldor with the desire of new things and strange countries, greater love was given to Fingolfin, and the Noldor were divided from the start into two companies, those following Feanor, who was in the lead, and the greater number of those who followed Fingolfin, who went reluctantly at the urging of Fingon his son, and because he would not be sundered from his people.

Then a message from Manwe finally arrives, warning the Noldor against their plan to leave. But Feanor's voice has grown so mighty that when he answers even the messenger of Manwe bowed as one full-answered.

So the Noldor march inexorably to the Kinslaying. When Feanor could not convice the Teleri to join in their rebellion and take them to Middle-earth in their ships, he demanded that they give up their precious ships to him. And when they refused, he and his followers took them by force, with the rest of the Noldor joining in as well when they arrived to find their own kin falling, before the knew the cause of the quarrel.

And then a dark figure (most likely Mandos himself) appeared to the Noldor and spoke their doom. "Tears unnumbered ye shall shed: and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Feanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. ... Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. ..."

But Feanor's answers: "We have sworn, and not lightly. This oath we will keep. We are threatened with many evils, and treason not least; but one thing is not said: that we shall suffer from cowardice, from cravens or the fear of cravens. Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda." And wrong as I know Feanor to be, these words never fail to move me.

Then Finarfin turns back full of grief and bitterness towards the House of Feanor, for his wife was the daughter of Olwe, the King of the Teleri, and many joined him and received the pardon of the Valar. But Finarfins sons (and Galadriel, his daughter), and Fingolfin and his sons went on. And we come to the next great evil of Feanor. He and his followers slip off with all of the boats, sailing across to the Middle-earth. But when Maedhros, Feanor's eldest son suggests sending the ships back, particularly for his old friend Fingon, Feanor becomes ever more fey and instead sets the ships on fire (there is a very sad story in HoME about one of Feonor's sons being accidently killed in the fire, but that is beyond the scope of this discussion). "This was the first fruits of the Kinslaying and the Doom of the Noldor."

But Fingolfin and his followers brave the misery and terror of the Helcaraxe (what a great name!) and the cruel hills of ice. Many perished in this bitter crossing, including Turgon's wife Elenwe. "Small love for feanor or his sons had those that marched at last behind him, and blew their trumpets in Middle-earth at the first rising of the Moon."

Much more can be said about the events of this chapter and their implications. But I will leave that to another time, or to one of our wiser brethren.

Wow! What a terrific summary, V.


I've got thoughts swirling around that will take some time to sort out and put into a (hopefully) comprehensive post.

I am really intrigued by the oaths taken. They seem almost pagan, as in both powerful and magical, which is, at first glance, somewhat suprising by so Christian an author.

Give me a few days.
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Btw, is there any way you can claim a proxy threadstarter status? We really need the title changed to The Flight of the Noldor.

And where are the sluggards who promised to contribute to this thread, eh?

Just askin'

Uh, Sassy, check the thread title again.

Tinwe the Redoubtable Ranger was kind enough to quickly respond to my request in the B-Room to change the title. Aren't our Rangers great?

Looking forward to your thoughts.

Edit: I often think that a big part of what Tolkien was about was the melding of the Pagan and Christian traditions.

What an awesome introductory post to get us started on this complex and many-layered chapter, Voronwe! Thank-you!

Sassy wrote:

I am really intrigued by the oaths taken. They seem almost pagan, as in both powerful and magical, which is, at first glance, somewhat suprising by so Christian an author.

and then Voronwe wrote:

I often think that a big part of what Tolkien was about was the melding of the Pagan and Christian traditions.

After finally reading "The Pagan Christ" this summer, these thoughts are most interesting to note, as the foundation of the work rests in the theory that all Christian belief structures are rooted in pagan myth and the powerful metaphysical symbolism found within it.

But I digress.

I too, will be back after I put more meaning and form to the scribbles in the margins of my Sil, which look rather more like glyphs than words at the moment ...............but then, I've been indulging in a rather robust Australian Shiraz before scanning them just now.

[quote][/but then, I've been indulging in a rather robust Australian Shiraz quote]

Ah, no doubt keeping your body relaxed and supple to make sure your back woes do not return. Smart thinking.

I look greatly look forward to your comments as well.

Sassy and 'Beth, thank you so much for making the journey not lonely. I couldn't ask for better companions.

Such a stunning chapter. I'm looking forward to the analyses from minds far greater than mine

My analysis pretty much runs to "Whoa! Cool!

Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:

Time to continue the lonely journey.

I guess its you and me, Vinny. Thank goodness for multiple personalities.

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We begin with a great concourse at the Ring of Doom, under the stars of Varda. The winds of Manwe have chased away "the vapours of death", but the Light of the Trees is no more. Yavanna presents to Feanor a hard choice, to allow the Silmarils to be broken so that the light they hold could be used by Yavanna to revive the Trees. Aule alone knows what this choice means to Feanor, who declares that if the Silmarils are broken it will break his heart and he will be slain, first of all the Eldar in Aman.

I am once again struck by how clueless the Valar seem. Yavanna, Manwe and Tulkas all seem completely unaware of how heart-wrenching it would be for Feanor to have his great works destroyed.

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But Mandos enigmatically says "Not the first," though none knew what he meant. I have always found the concept of Mandos knowing the future but not acting on it, or even revealing it until and if it is time to do so to be quite mind-boggling, and I still do. But "Not the first" soon takes on more significance.

I sometimes think that Mandos is like the smarty-pants in the class, going around saying "I know a secret. I know a secret."

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Here, at this pivotal moment, it is the influence of his enemy, Melkor, that most affects Feanor, awaking his pride and greed. He declares that he would not do what was asked of him "of free will." He further declares that if the Valar force him they will be shown to truly be kindred of Melkor.

This is a great indication of Tolkien's knowledge of human psychology. Despite the illogic of it, it completely makes sense to me that Melkor's lies would echo in Feanor's head here. Brilliant stuff.

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And Mandos says "Thou hast spoken" and Nienna "sang in mourning for the bitterness of the world and the Marring of Arda." Now Mandos knew that Feanor's father, Finwe, had already been slain by Melkor at Formenos, as shown by his "Not the first" comment. He therefore must have known also that the Silmarils had been stolen by Melkor, and that for all practical reasons the answer of Feanor was a moot point: there were no Silmarils available to break to use to revive the trees. And yet Mandos declares the importance of Feanor's words.

We have spoken much in this thread and in its precursor at TORC about free will and predestination. I believe that this was a critical moment in which Feanor could have chosen to exercise his free will and set himself (and his kindred) on a different path then the one that they ended up embarking on, leading inexorably to the Kinslaying and the Doom of Mandos, which would plague the Noldor with treason and the fear of treason throughout their exile in Middle-earth. As Tolkien says, "yet had he said yea at the first, before the tidings came from Formenos, it may be that his afer deeds would have been other than they were. But now the doom of the Noldor drew near."

But did Feanor REALLY have the opportunity to make any other choice then the one that he did? Wasn't he just acting in accordance with the way that Eru made him? And if so doesn't that raise another question: why would Eru make a being so great but still lacking in the capacity to make the leap of faith necessary to have taken the correct action here?

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But Feanor, for all his fearful pride, is yet an object of sympathy, running from the Ring of Doom and fleeing into the night for his grief at the killing of his father, who "was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?" Would the bitterness in his heart at the slaying of his father as well as the rape of his precious Silmarils not still led him to the same path even if he had freely agreed to give up the Silmarils when asked, or would his grief have been free of the madness that drove the Noldor to exile and misery? We can only speculate, but I suspect that Tolkien is suggesting that it would have.

This is the type of emotional manipulation that Tolkien does so well. I really should NOT feel sympathy for Feanor here. Tolkien's typically hyperbolic statements really should not have any effect at all. But the language is so high and florid that I can't help but be moved by these sentiments, unsupported by facts though they might be.

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We then turn to the squabbling of thieves. Ungoliant demands full payment for her assistance "with both hands." Melkor is grudgingly willing to give up the jewels of Formenos with his left hand, but he is not willing to give up the Silmarils with his right hand (interesting symbolism there), even though they had already begun to cause him pain. But Ungoliant has grown great and would have vanguished Melkor but for the Balrogs that come in response to his great cry. Thus ironically, these spirits of flame save the creations of Feanor, who's name meant "Spirit of Fire", from being utterly devoured by Ungoliant, as Yavanna feared they would. And Ungoliant passes out of the tale altogether, though her off-spring cause misery down the ages. And Melkor sets himself up as the King of the World, setting the Silmarils in his crown, though his hands are burnt black and he is never again free of the pain of them. Doesn't sound like real good decisionmaking to me.

Tolkien does squabbling thieves very well, IMO. This scene is very vivid, from Melkor's blind arrogant pride to Ungoliant's unmitigated greed. I love the touch of Melkor being burned by the Silmarils so that he is never free of the pain. Great symbolism of the idiotic sacrifices that people are willing to make in their blind drive for power.

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Meanwhile, Feanor shows up back at Tirion where he was still banished from, his first direct violation of the Valar's will. And he stirs up the Noldor with a great speech, stirring the Noldor to madness. "His wrath and his hate were given most to Morgoth, and yet well nigh all that he said came from the very lies of Morgoth." But Feanor knew his brethren well and ever appealed ever to their own pride.

"For we will go further than Orome, endure longer than Tulkas: we will never turn back from pursuit. After Morgoth to the ends of the Earth! War shall he have and hatred undying. But when we have conquered and have regained the Silmarils, then we and we alone shall be lords of the unsullied Light, and masters of the bliss and beauty of Arda. No other race shall oust us!"

Brilliant. Nobody does arrogant pride better then Tolkien.

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Then Feanor takes the action that binds his sons inexorably to his turn to evil. He and they swear the Oath of Feanor, "an oath that none shall break, and none should take, by the name of Iluvator himself, calling the Everlasting Darkness upon themselves if the fail to pursue any being great or small, good or evil who takes or holds or keeps a Silmaril from their possession (sounds a bit like Microsoft, but that's another discussion).

The binding power of this oath is such a critical factor in the Silmarillion story. "For so sworn, good or evil, an oath may not be borken, and it shall pursue oath keeper and oathbreaker to the world's end." Thus Feanor and his sons have doomed themselves whatever they do.

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Then Fingolfin and his son Turgon spoke hotly against Feanor (though we don't know quite what they said), once again awaking wrath. Finarfin and his son Orodreth tried to calm their kindred. Galadriel was eager to be gone as well, for she even then yearned to rule a a realm at her own will in teh wide unguarded lands, as did Fingon, Fingolfin's son. But though Feanor set aflame the greater part of the Noldor with the desire of new things and strange countries, greater love was given to Fingolfin, and the Noldor were divided from the start into two companies, those following Feanor, who was in the lead, and the greater number of those who followed Fingolfin, who went reluctantly at the urging of Fingon his son, and because he would not be sundered from his people.

What a mixed figure Fingolfin is here. It seems to me that his main purpose is simply to oppose Feanor. If Feanor was saying let's stay in Valinor, Fingolfin probably would have led the drive to leave. Yet he presented as admirable figure, beloved by the people, from whom he would not be sundered. Well sure, he needed his peeps to feed that huge ego of his.

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Then a message from Manwe finally arrives, warning the Noldor against their plan to leave. But Feanor's voice has grown so mighty that when he answers even the messenger of Manwe bowed as one full-answered.

And why has Feanor's voice grown so mighty? Could it be that his wrath and the kindling of the evil within him have so greatly increased his strength of will? Or is just that his Spirit of Fire was already burning out in a great blaze of glory?

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So the Noldor march inexorably to the Kinslaying. When Feanor could not convice the Teleri to join in their rebellion and take them to Middle-earth in their ships, he demanded that they give up their precious ships to him. And when they refused, he and his followers took them by force, with the rest of the Noldor joining in as well when they arrived to find their own kin falling, before the knew the cause of the quarrel.

And then a dark figure (most likely Mandos himself) appeared to the Noldor and spoke their doom. "Tears unnumbered ye shall shed: and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Feanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. ... Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. ..."

But Feanor's answers: "We have sworn, and not lightly. This oath we will keep. We are threatened with many evils, and treason not least; but one thing is not said: that we shall suffer from cowardice, from cravens or the fear of cravens. Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda." And wrong as I know Feanor to be, these words never fail to move me.

This short answer of Feanor's is so full of meaning. First, we have the oath, and the reinforcement of the notion of the power inherent in binding oneself to a particular concept by giving ones word, for good or for evil. But then Feanor gives the ultimate defense of himself and his kindred: no matter what evil they face, indeed no matter what evil they bring upon themselves, they will meet that evil bravely. And thus they will earn a form of immortality.

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Then Finarfin turns back full of grief and bitterness towards the House of Feanor, for his wife was the daughter of Olwe, the King of the Teleri, and many joined him and received the pardon of the Valar. But Finarfins sons (and Galadriel, his daughter), and Fingolfin and his sons went on. And we come to the next great evil of Feanor. He and his followers slip off with all of the boats, sailing across to the Middle-earth. But when Maedhros, Feanor's eldest son suggests sending the ships back, particularly for his old friend Fingon, Feanor becomes ever more fey and instead sets the ships on fire (there is a very sad story in HoME about one of Feonor's sons being accidently killed in the fire, but that is beyond the scope of this discussion). "This was the first fruits of the Kinslaying and the Doom of the Noldor."

Is there anyone who does not think that Finarfin was the son of Finwe most deserving of admiration? Yet of Finarfin less is said then his more conflicted brethren. Often is such the case.

It is fascinating to see Feanor's evil side take hold of him so quickly. Once having led the kin-slaying, the abandonment of Fingolfin and his kindred seems almost like a fait acommpli. Once having set himself on the path of evil, Feanor is on a slippery downward slope.

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But Fingolfin and his followers brave the misery and terror of the Helcaraxe (what a great name!) and the cruel hills of ice. Many perished in this bitter crossing, including Turgon's wife Elenwe. "Small love for feanor or his sons had those that marched at last behind him, and blew their trumpets in Middle-earth at the first rising of the Moon."

I posted this picture in the trivia thread, but it should go here as well. Definitely a case where a picture is worth a thousand words.

Well I am trying to catch up. I will try from time to time to cehck in here in beteween school. I was hoping somone would bump this up.
Great pic V. I always imagined very very high hills though.

Athrabeth nudges in between Vinnie and Voronwë so that she can join the conversation.

Well, this chapter is an eye-opener, and no mistake!

I clearly recall that the first time I read the Sil, this was the first chapter after the Ainulindale that warranted an immediate second read. Unlike the Ainulindale, however, which I read through two or three times just because of the sheer beauty of the concept of a universe of Time and Shape being called into existence through music, it was the power of this chapter’s language, and specifically its oration, that simply had to be savoured again. I don’t really know how many times I’ve read the words of Fëanor and Mandos since then, but I do know that they still send shivers down my spine.

But I’m getting ahead of myself.

A newer thought that struck me upon this reading was how Melkor’s character changes with Fëanor’s naming of him as the Morgoth. “He Who Arises in Mightâ€

So much to think about.

I'll be back.

Athrabeth wrote:

Athrabeth nudges in between Vinnie and Voronwë so that she can join the conversation.

How comfy.

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A newer thought that struck me upon this reading was how Melkor’s character changes with Fëanor’s naming of him as the Morgoth. “He Who Arises in Mightâ€

Voronwe wrote:

This idea that Morgoth must diminish his own self in order to dominate others (and indeed the world itself) is really a key theme for Tolkien. The idea that the world itself is "Morgoth's Ring" (in that he inserts his energy into the matter of the whole much as Sauron later concentrates his power in the Ring) is really critical.

Yes! I find it ironic in the extreme that as Morgoth binds himself within the physical "stuff" of Arda, coveting the very matter that he stained and injected with his evil right from the beginning, the more his own inherent power becomes marred. It's like he's caught in his own self-destructive web of cause and effect: every time he expands it to ensnare others, the more he becomes entrapped at its centre. The web itself becomes enormous, but eventually, the weaver's power is utterly spent on its design. Morgoth drinks from the very well that he, himself, poisoned.............a dangerous business, that, even for "He Who Arises in Might".

Quote:

It is impossible to escape the evil of Morgoth, because it is everywhere.

Ah, but not in the hearts of some, my friend.

There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end, the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.

I wrote:

You really don’t care for Fingolfin, do you Voronwë?

you wrote:

That remains to be seen.

How cryptic.

But I'm warning you..............I can get dangerously close to sw00ning for a guy who goes one on one with Morgoth. I will await you at the gates of Angband!!

Athrabeth wrote:

Yes! I find it ironic in the extreme that as Morgoth binds himself within the physical "stuff" of Arda, coveting the very matter that he stained and injected with his evil right from the beginning, the more his own inherent power becomes marred. It's like he's caught in his own self-destructive web of cause and effect: every time he expands it to ensnare others, the more he becomes entrapped at its centre. The web itself becomes enormous, but eventually, the weaver's power is utterly spent on its design. Morgoth drinks from the very well that he, himself, poisoned.............a dangerous business, that, even for "He Who Arises in Might".

But even after Morgoth poisons even himself, the web still remains.

Quote:

Quote:

It is impossible to escape the evil of Morgoth, because it is everywhere.

Ah, but not in the hearts of some, my friend.

There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end, the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.

indeed. But even Sam's loyal heart is touched by the marring of Arda, else he would have been uneffected by the Ring, and his own brand of selfishness would not have prevented Gollum's redemption.

I would say that the only being in Middle-earth that remains unmarred is Bombadil. Unless you count his poetry.

you wrote:

You really don’t care for Fingolfin, do you Voronwë?

I wrote:

That remains to be seen.

you wrote:

How cryptic.

But I'm warning you..............I can get dangerously close to sw00ning for a guy who goes one on one with Morgoth. I will await you at the gates of Angband!!

That's why it remains to be scene.

Quote:

I would say that the only being in Middle-earth that remains unmarred is Bombadil. Unless you count his poetry.

Any thoughts on why that would be?

Sorry to butt in, just this point has always troubled me

Din, there certainly is no question of butting in. I would LOVE to hear your perspective about any of this stuff

As for the 'Bombadil problem' I can only say that it has troubled me as well (and not just because of the bad poetry). Perhaps we need a Bombadil thread to more fully explore the matter?

Aaaargh! A Bombadil thread? Say it isn't so....

Uh, I wanted to ask is it OK. To commenbt on past chapters? I did not realize how far behind I was.

I have just read chapter 7 and 8.

I am stunned at how Feanor threatened his own brother. Does Feanor have like self essteem issues or something? Why should he be so insecure about being uh passed over?

Wilma! It’s so good to have you back!

And with a neat question, too!

I think that one of the most intriguing things about the Sil is that although it is written in the more remote, “highâ€