board77

The Last Homely Site on the Web

Narrow down this LOTR term paper topic:

Post Reply   Page 1 of 2  [ 28 posts ]
Jump to page 1 2 »
Author Message
theduffster
Post subject: Narrow down this LOTR term paper topic:
Posted: Tue 29 Mar , 2005 1:03 am
Damn those Amish!!
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 938
Joined: Fri 25 Feb , 2005 12:16 am
Location: in racist Western Pa.
Contact: Website
 
So the 19-year old has to write a paper about LOTR for a college class. She wants the topic to be, that because Frodo and Sam are both heroic characters, it's too hard for the reader to determine who the real protagonist is. Her professor says she needs to be more specific, the paper should be no longer than 6 pages.

Ideas?? I think she should make it "Sam is the hero." Since she hasn't finished it yet, she says she doesn't know if that's what she will think, so wants to do it based on what she's read so far. She's only up "The White Rider" chapter of TTT.

_________________

[ img ]

Gob: Return from whence you came!!


Top
Profile Quote
Frelga
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 29 Mar , 2005 1:23 am
A green apple painted red
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 4622
Joined: Thu 17 Mar , 2005 9:11 pm
Location: Out on the banks
 
Since she hasn't finished the book, maybe she could focus on the beginning and show how leaving the Shire was an act of heroism for both Frodo and Sam but in different ways?

HTH


Top
Profile Quote
Athrabeth
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 29 Mar , 2005 1:30 am
Nameless
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 692
Joined: Wed 23 Feb , 2005 2:17 am
Location: On the Way
 
Well, if I was her prof, I'd probably take her to task if she wrote something that really requires consideration of the entire narrative, such as the development of "the hero" (whether Frodo or Sam).

I'd suggest focusing on an "element" that has been handled in its entirety (or close enough to it) up to the place she now finds herself in the text. An essay on Treebeard and Fangorn could address all kinds of interesting "thematic questions", as would Galadriel and Lorien.

Another angle (if it meets the set criteria) would be to examine Tolkien's use of language within a specific chapter. Treebeard once again comes to mind here.

Over at TORC, Teremia's "Moobies Reads the Book" thread has all kinds of wonderful insights and opinions on each chapter. She might find some inspiration there, or at least, a starting point!

_________________

[ img ]
"The pie that can be eaten is not the Eternal Pie."


Top
Profile Quote
theduffster
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 29 Mar , 2005 1:31 am
Damn those Amish!!
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 938
Joined: Fri 25 Feb , 2005 12:16 am
Location: in racist Western Pa.
Contact: Website
 
To quote my daughter: "That would be probably good. But keep 'em coming!!" :)

edited to add:
Athrabeth, you posted just as I did. I suggested your ideas to her. She likes those ideas too. She's only seen the movies, when I suggested the "Sam is the hero" idea, she immediately saw the reasoning behind that. Focusing on Treebeard or Galadriel is a great idea too.

_________________

[ img ]

Gob: Return from whence you came!!


Top
Profile Quote
MaidenOfTheShieldarm
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 29 Mar , 2005 4:01 am
Another bright red day
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 2402
Joined: Sat 12 Mar , 2005 10:35 pm
Location: Far from the coast of Utopia
 
Aren't narrowing down theses evil? I've been trying to come up with one about American Sci Fi in the 1950s. Yeah, that's not broad at all. :roll:

Anywho, I'd suggest that your daughter pick an angle, pick one character to take the point of view from. For example, she could argue why Frodo isn't *the* hero of LOTR, ditto for Sam. So, a thesis for that would probably be something like "Samwise Gamgee is not the hero of J. R. .R Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings because although it is he who, in many ways, enables the quest to be completed, he is neither the one who completes it nor the one who ultimately sacrifices the most." Okay, that was long winded, but you see what I mean?

But I like Athrabeth's idea as well. It might be really neat to find a part and just really examine it. Like how Lothlorien represents JRRT's recurring themes of death and deathlessness, for example.

Best of luck to her! :)

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
TheEllipticalDisillusion
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 29 Mar , 2005 7:14 am
Insolent Pup
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 5381
Joined: Wed 09 Mar , 2005 8:31 pm
Location: Many Places
 
She could juggle with who's heroism is more heroic. Frodo is the hero who saves the world, but Sam is the hero who saves Frodo-- Sam's sacrafice of food and water in Mordor to keep Frodo alive. Is Sam's more heroic because without it Frodo's wouldn't have happened?

_________________

The 11/3 Project


Top
Profile Quote
Kushana
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 29 Mar , 2005 7:15 am
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 206
Joined: Thu 20 Jan , 2005 10:13 pm
Location: The Valley of the Wind
 
MaidenOfTheShieldarm wrote:
Aren't narrowing down theses evil? I've been trying to come up with one about American Sci Fi in the 1950s.
Say more!

(I can think of really narrow theses within my own discipline, but I can never think of ones with limited amounts of evidence....)

The words "define heroism" are floating in front of my mind's eye in red marking-pen.... How's this:

What is Tolkien's definition of heroism* (cover this as tersely as possible, pick the best quote on the topic and move on) and how does it apply to Frodo or Sam? (I'd go with Frodo, because I think I'd loose less hair while writing the essay... )

* I bet this is outside the scope of the paper, but I'd poke around in Beuwulf, or On Fairie Stories... Tolkien is very much working with (and modifying!) a traditional, militaristic definition of hero. <K. points to the Rohirrim with a polite cough>

-Kushana

_________________

Pretty nice Shire, isn't it? Ring... God-Soldier... What's the difference?


Top
Profile Quote
Andri
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 29 Mar , 2005 7:56 am
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 255
Joined: Tue 01 Feb , 2005 7:23 pm
Location: running after my kids
 
Kushana wrote:
The words "define heroism" are floating in front of my mind's eye in red marking-pen.... How's this:

What is Tolkien's definition of heroism* (cover this as tersely as possible, pick the best quote on the topic and move on) and how does it apply to Frodo or Sam? (I'd go with Frodo, because I think I'd loose less hair while writing the essay... )
Kushana, please get out of my mind!!!! :rage:

Building on what Kushana said, maybe you could compare Tolkien's definition of a hero to today's definition of a hero. Tolkien meant for Frodo to be seen as the hero (IMO) but many people today argue that Sam is the real hero of the book. This must have something to do with the change in the perception of what a hero is.


Top
Profile Quote
Kushana
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 29 Mar , 2005 9:01 am
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 206
Joined: Thu 20 Jan , 2005 10:13 pm
Location: The Valley of the Wind
 
Andri wrote:
Kushana, please get out of my mind!!!!
Many apologies! ;)

-Kushana

_________________

Pretty nice Shire, isn't it? Ring... God-Soldier... What's the difference?


Top
Profile Quote
TORN
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 29 Mar , 2005 12:08 pm
THE GREAT AND POWERFUL
Offline
 
Posts: 412
Joined: Sun 06 Mar , 2005 2:30 am
 
theduffster wrote:
To quote my daughter: "That would be probably good. But keep 'em coming!!" :)

edited to add:
Athrabeth, you posted just as I did. I suggested your ideas to her. She likes those ideas too. She's only seen the movies, when I suggested the "Sam is the hero" idea, she immediately saw the reasoning behind that. Focusing on Treebeard or Galadriel is a great idea too.
Not to be my usual cruel self, but may I suggest a seemingly cruel -- er -- suggestion? Unless the topic must be on some element of heroism, perhaps something along the lines of the road not taken by JRRT, and focusing on the choice to confront the evil of the Ring rather than take the Tom Bombadil approach -- as he is not in the movies, her analysis would be unsullied by Peter Jenkins' vision.


Top
Profile Quote
halplm
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 29 Mar , 2005 1:36 pm
b77 whipping boy
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 9079
Joined: Tue 04 Jan , 2005 4:40 pm
 
Hmm, I'd be interested in more details on the assignment. If the goal is to narrow down the Sam/Frodo Hero concept, that's difficult without the events in ROTK. If it can be ANY topic, then there are a very very large number of possibilities.

If you want to talk of Heroes and Death, you have both Gandalf and Boromir to talk about. What about, "Is Gandalf's heroism on the Bridge of Khazad-Dumn diminished by his later return to life?" which would involve a whole slew of topics to discuss about Heroes, Death, Boromir, would Frodo be a hero if he hadn't made it to Rivendell alive, but brought the ring there? And of course, the whole deathlessness of the Elves can be brought in...

Another favorite topic of mine in the first half of LOTR, is the awakening of the Hobbits to the world of Middle Earth. From the somewhat trivial adventures of the Old Forest, to the nightmare of Weathertop, to the Grand trip down the Anduin... it's a very interesting weave of Tolkien's, that I think is one of his greatest strengths. There are many topics that could arise from this as well...

_________________

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.


Top
Profile Quote
Di of Long Cleeve
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 29 Mar , 2005 1:48 pm
Frodo's girl through and through
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 989
Joined: Sun 06 Mar , 2005 10:08 pm
Location: The Shire
 
In brief:

Frodo as the Tragic Hero - he sacrifices everything and loses everything
Sam as the Fairytale Hero - all his wishes eventually come true, even the wish to be reunited with his beloved master over the Sea
Aragorn as the Traditional Hero - it's easy to see why. He's a classic archetype.

There's a whole wealth of stuff to discuss there. :)

With regards to the Frodo/Sam debate, Tolkien does refer to Sam in the Collected Letters as 'the chief character' and 'the chief hero' - his affections seemed to switch from Frodo to Sam, or at least the focus of his attention did.

But elsewhere in the Letters Tolkien refers to Frodo's sacrifice and what it cost him extensively, thus making a very strong case for Frodo being LOTR's central protagonist. :)

Good luck! :)

_________________

"Frodo undertook his quest out of love - to save the world he knew from disaster at his own expense, if he could ... " Letter no. 246

Avatar by elanordh on Live Journal


Top
Profile Quote
MaidenOfTheShieldarm
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 29 Mar , 2005 2:57 pm
Another bright red day
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 2402
Joined: Sat 12 Mar , 2005 10:35 pm
Location: Far from the coast of Utopia
 
Kushana wrote:
MaidenOfTheShieldarm wrote:
Aren't narrowing down theses evil? I've been trying to come up with one about American Sci Fi in the 1950s.
Say more!

(I can think of really narrow theses within my own discipline, but I can never think of ones with limited amounts of evidence....)
Well, if you insist. . . Because I have very limited time, I've been reading Bradbury (Martian Chronicles, Farenheit 451), Asimov (I, Robot, Foundation), and hopefully (but probably not cause I"ve got a week and a half left) Philip K. Dick and exmaining their writing through the lens of 1950s America, especially the birth of the material culture, fear of the science (esp atomic weapons) and how that affects everday life, and the loss of individuality of the time. So yeah, that's what I'm doing.

And to get back on topic. . . (sorry Duffster! :oops:)
Quote:
The words "define heroism" are floating in front of my mind's eye in red marking-pen.... How's this:

What is Tolkien's definition of heroism* (cover this as tersely as possible, pick the best quote on the topic and move on) and how does it apply to Frodo or Sam? (I'd go with Frodo, because I think I'd loose less hair while writing the essay... /quote]

I've been reading Shippey's Road to Middle Earth for my other huge paper (also due in a week and a half. :help: (Where's a hair pulling emoticon when you need one?)) on Tolkien, and he's definitely got stuff to say about this. Ie, how Tolkien was trying to create real heroes without being ironic. Just thought it could be an interesting bit to look at for your daughter, as she seems to want to talk about heroism. . .

Oo, had another idea, inspired by Di. She could examine whether or not Frodo is a *classical* Tragic Hero. That is, (it's really early, bear with me and my abundance of parenthical comments) does Frodo fail because of a tragic flaw, or because of external circumstances beyond his control. Does Frodo even have a tragic flaw? Maybe not. Nevermind.

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
halplm
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 29 Mar , 2005 3:26 pm
b77 whipping boy
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 9079
Joined: Tue 04 Jan , 2005 4:40 pm
 
Frodo's Flaw is that he gives in to temptation. It is an easily forgiven flaw, because of the circumstances surrounding him, as well as that temptation being characterized as impossible to resist.

Frodo's heroism is in the fact that he was able to resist that temptation long enough to facilitate the eventual success of his quest.

He did sacrifice everything, but that was not a heroic act for Frodo. Frodo's resulting sacrifice was a tragedy. It was not his heroism that required him to sacrifice everything. Indeed Frodo had already sacrificed everything he had in an act of looking for adventure. Sam, on the other hand, who was so despirately clinging to the hope of returning to the Shire and having everything again (which he did), would have had to make a heroic sacrifice, if say, Frodo had died on Cirith Ungol.

_________________

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.


Top
Profile Quote
Voronwë_the_Faithful
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 29 Mar , 2005 3:28 pm
Offline
 
Posts: 5170
Joined: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 6:53 pm
Contact: Website
 
She should finish reading the book first. ;)

Edit because I saw halplm's post:
Quote:
Frodo's Flaw is that he gives in to temptation. It is an easily forgiven flaw, because of the circumstances surrounding him, as well as that temptation being characterized as impossible to resist.
Sorry hal, but you're wrong. :) How can giving in to temptation that is impossible to resist be a flaw?

As Tolkien said:
Quote:
I do not think that Frodo's was a moral failure. At the last moment the pressure of the Ring would reachi its maximum -- impossible, I should have said, for any one to resist, certainly after long possession, months of increasing torment, and when starved and exhausted. Frodo had done what he could and spent himself completely (as an instrument of Providence) and had produced a situation in which the object of his quest could be achieved.


Top
Profile Quote
halplm
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 29 Mar , 2005 4:04 pm
b77 whipping boy
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 9079
Joined: Tue 04 Jan , 2005 4:40 pm
 
Just because it is a common flaw (ie impossible to resist) doesn't mean it isn't a flaw.

It is, in fact, Frodo's only flaw. He does everything right otherwise.

That's why it's easily forgivable, though, as I said. He could not avoid it. However, "impossible" isn't the right word in the book, or else Tolkien would have put it there. It wasn't "impossible" with relation to the quest. If things had gone differently and Frodo arrived at Mount Doom strong and capable, I daresay he could have had the strength to resist the ring.

What I'm saying is that I think he still would not have. Tolkien's point on Frodo being an instrument of providence is to focus on the concept of providence itself. Frodo was an instrument, but he could NOT accomplish the quest itself on his own.

I don't think that quote of Tolkien's directly comments on if Frodo was "flawed." He was certainly "moral" as Tolkain states, and WANTED to destroy the ring from a moral standpoint. Knowing what to do, however, is not the same as doing it.

So again, his heroism was giving all of his strength to the quest to put it in a position to succeed, even though he could not accomplish that success by himself.

_________________

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.


Top
Profile Quote
Athrabeth
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 29 Mar , 2005 4:46 pm
Nameless
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 692
Joined: Wed 23 Feb , 2005 2:17 am
Location: On the Way
 
Voronwe the practical wrote:
She should finish reading the book first
All of the suggestions put forward about heroism would make for a potentially rich discussion paper, but once again, if she has not finished the book, I cannot see how she could do justice to the topic (or at least, honest justice). Duffy, I think your daughter demonstrates very sound judgement about limiting her topic to what she already knows about LOTR. It is such a rich book, with so many beautifully crafted elements that can, when analyzed, "stand on their own" in theme, character, and narrative, that she should be able to "zero in" on one that has particularly resonated with her so far.

Although I officially teach a younger age group, I help guide a small group of Grade 11 and 12 students in an enrichment literature course, and this is exactly the advice I would give (and have given, actually) in a similar situation.

Here's another suggestion: she could examine the temptation scenes of Gandalf, Galadriel, and Boromir, comparing the way Tolkien presents the idea of the Ring "tempting the good" within his characters. Ooooooo..........I'd like to write/read something on THAT!!!!! :D

_________________

[ img ]
"The pie that can be eaten is not the Eternal Pie."


Top
Profile Quote
Voronwë_the_Faithful
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 29 Mar , 2005 6:41 pm
Offline
 
Posts: 5170
Joined: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 6:53 pm
Contact: Website
 
Athrabeth wrote:
Here's another suggestion: she could examine the temptation scenes of Gandalf, Galadriel, and Boromir, comparing the way Tolkien presents the idea of the Ring "tempting the good" within his characters. Ooooooo..........I'd like to write/read something on THAT!!!!! :D
You should write something on that, my friend. Even better, examine the temptation scenes of Gandalf, Galadriel and Boromir in the book and and films, and compare the way Tolkien AND the filmmakers present the idea of the Ring "tempting the good" within their characters.

I'll look forward to seeing it. :D

Or maybe we should start a thread about it in the movie forum, so that hal and Semprini can explain why the filmmakers completely failed to capture this theme. :P

P.S. Hal, how can something that someone did better then anyone else could have be considered a flaw? That's like saying that Rick Barry in his prime was a "flawed" foul shooter because he did not make 100% of his foul shots, even though he had a higher percentage then anyone else.


Top
Profile Quote
MaidenOfTheShieldarm
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 29 Mar , 2005 7:09 pm
Another bright red day
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 2402
Joined: Sat 12 Mar , 2005 10:35 pm
Location: Far from the coast of Utopia
 
halplm wrote:
Frodo's Flaw is that he gives in to temptation. It is an easily forgiven flaw, because of the circumstances surrounding him, as well as that temptation being characterized as impossible to resist.
That's not really a flaw, per se. Frodo himself would be able to resist tempation were it not for the Ring. The Ring provides the flaw, not Frodo himself. Ergo, it's not a classic tragic flaw. And thus, Frodo is not a tragic hero.

I think Athrabeth has had the best idea so far. It's within what she's read, and even better, it sounds really interesting! You could compare the reasons for the temptation, and the results thereof. That is, what happened and why the end result was was it was, and wat about the tempation itself caused that. From there, one could compare and contrast to see what Tolkien might have been saying about the tempation of those who are noble and good. Or perhaps it speaks more to the nature of the Ring itself? In fact, I'm not sure how much sense that made. . . :suspicious:

Would someone please explain to me why I can only think this clearly about other people's papers? I mean, I've got two of my own 15 page papers to write. . . :scratch

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Queen_Beruthiel
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 29 Mar , 2005 7:35 pm
Offline
 
Posts: 90
Joined: Thu 10 Mar , 2005 12:35 pm
 
Frodo's flaw is..... being human.


Top
Profile Quote
Display: Sort by: Direction:
Post Reply   Page 1 of 2  [ 28 posts ]
Return to “Literary Rambles: There & Back Again...” | Jump to page 1 2 »
Jump to: