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Which is the masterpiece: LOTR or Sil? Or even The Hobbit?

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Di of Long Cleeve
Post subject: Which is the masterpiece: LOTR or Sil? Or even The Hobbit?
Posted: Thu 31 Mar , 2005 11:08 pm
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I think that all three of Tolkien's major works are masterpieces in their own way.

The Hobbit is a beautifully crafted children's novel, moving seamlessly from 'Wind in the Willows' type territory into something much more akin to 'Beowulf'. And he does it for kids. :Q Amazing. :)

LOTR is a genuine fairy-tale for grown-ups. And again, there's the same movement as in The Hobbit: we start off in Wind in the Willows and quickly move into Beowulf territory, except in LOTR it's much darker and the stakes are much higher.

Both are extremely popular and accessible books.

The Silmarillion is the backdrop: the over-arching vision: the mythology which shaped the above books: the real heart and soul of Tolkien. It's a wonderful book and it awes me.

But it is not accessible. It's for die-hard Tolkien lovers only. I have to say that reading Sil increased my appreciation of LOTR ten-fold. I saw LOTR with new eyes.

Which is your favourite out of the three, and why? :)

My choice is LOTR. Because in LOTR the beauty and the magic is up close and personal. Whereas in Sil it's much more remote and detached.

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Sassafras
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Posted: Fri 01 Apr , 2005 12:03 am
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First response:

Lord of the Rings.

Mainly because of the impact it had upon first reading. I was 22 and almost literally fell into Middle Earth. Somehow, although I did not understand how at the time, the book resonated … set up sympathetic vibrations, as it were. You know, the way a bell vibrates and you can hear tonal echoes, and if your hearing is very sensitive indeed and your sight very sharp, you might hear and see the tonal echoes receding into infinity.

I believed that book. I swear that if I closed my eyes I was this close to Lothlorien. I embraced it as living history because it made so much sense to me. All these long years later I still believe it.

A quick word on The Hobbit. I've only read it once, I enjoyed it but did consider it a children's book and it did not cast a spell over me as LotR has.

Still struggling through the Sil. It doesn't flow (for me) and I have quite a few problems with the cosmology. Lots of declarations make little sense and that detracts from my enjoyment. I don't find the same ease of suspension of disbelief as I do in LotR.

My humble opinion?
Lord of the Rings is Tolkien's masterpiece.


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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Fri 01 Apr , 2005 1:03 am
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What aspects of a masterpiece are we judging between these three books?

Personally, I find The Hobbit more enjoyable to reread. I have no real desire to read LotR again, once was enough for me. I don't know if this makes me think of the Hobbit as the masterpiece.

LotR might have more literary merit and certainly had a greater impact on the culture than the Hobbit. I don't know if a work must have such an impact to be considered a masterpiece, but it could.

I have never read the Silmarillian. A friend of mine who read it described it to me this way: if you want to read a history of a world that never happened, read it. I'm not knocking the Silmarillian, but this is how it was described to me.

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MaidenOfTheShieldarm
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Posted: Fri 01 Apr , 2005 4:04 am
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I think that depends on how you define "masterpiece." Tolkien certainly thought that The Silmarillion was his masterpiece: his life's work and love.

For me, both The Hobbit and LOTR, for different reasons. I still have very fond memories of The Hobbit from when my mum read it to me when I was eight. It was love at first sentence. It was magical, something I had never even dreamed could exist. And it changed my life. In a far less personal sense, The Hobbit is a very, very well written book that any can grasp, yet there's a lot to it at the same time. All of the Beowulf references and satire on English society, etc.

LOTR. . . LOTR has grandeur and beauty and . . . nobility. LOTR is high art, if you know what I mean. It has changed society, and it has changed me. I love LOTR for the characters. Eowyn and Faramir, especially, as well as Boromir, Sam, Gandalf, Galadriel. LOTR is. . . richer.

I'll come back and say more when I have more time. . .

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Fri 01 Apr , 2005 5:41 pm
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To me Tolkien's "masterpiece" is his whole body of work. I don't really consider the Silmarillion to be an isolated piece. There is so much that is critical to Tolkien conception of his created universe that is missing from the published text, which I think (and I suspect even Christopher Tolkien thinks) is a shame. There is stuff that I consider among Tolkien's best work (the Narn, the Athrabeth, the Laws and Customs of the Eldar, the story of Tuor's coming to Gondolin, the Mariner's Wife, the Wanderings of Hurin, etc.) that are not included in the Hobbit, LOTR or the Sil. What I consider to be Tolkien's finest accomplishments are the depth and breadth of his created universe, and even more the depth and breadth of the ideas that he managed to convey in the course of its creation.


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halplm
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Posted: Fri 01 Apr , 2005 5:57 pm
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Along the same vein as VtF... Tolkien's Masterpiece is...

Middle Earth

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TORN
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Posted: Sat 02 Apr , 2005 3:19 am
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THE ADVENTURES OF TOM BOMBADIL


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Ethel
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Posted: Sat 02 Apr , 2005 3:54 am
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TORN wrote:
THE ADVENTURES OF TOM BOMBADIL
Don't worry about this, folks. I've taken care of it. TORN sleeps with the fishes. Cruel, perhaps, but fair.


LOTR is the masterpiece, chilluns. It wouldn't have been as interesting and moving as it is without the overlay of ancient myth and language, but if the myth and language (the Sil) were all Tolkien invented, we would never even have heard of the guy.

Just saying.


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TORN
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Posted: Sat 02 Apr , 2005 4:19 am
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Mrs. Mertz wrote:
The Great and Powerful TORN wrote:
THE ADVENTURES OF TOM BOMBADIL
Don't worry about this, folks. I've taken care of it. TORN sleeps with the fishes. Cruel, perhaps, but fair.
:x :x :x ARGH!!! SHIVER ME TIMBERS, I'VE WALKED THE PLANK AND AM STOWED IN DAVEY JONES' LOCKER, SO SAYS ME MATEY'S LASS!!! :x :x :x

WELL, IF YOU LISTEN TO THE FINE GENIUSES WHO WRITE REVIEWS OVER AT AMAZON.COM, TAoTB WOULD BE RIGHT UP THERE WITH LOTR.

SIGNED,

THE RESIDENT MISERABLE POLTROO


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Ethel
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Posted: Sat 02 Apr , 2005 4:32 am
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TORN wrote:
THE RESIDENT MISERABLE POLTROO[/b]
Shouldn't that be "poltroon"? My old gaffer - the pirate, y'know - was a real stickler for spelling.


Oh, and what part of the Adventures do you admire most, Senor Poltroo? Shall we... sing? Can you say... Ring a ding dillo? Do you have yellow boots? Are you now, or have you ever been, married to a water sprite? Do you like to carry water lillies about? Inquiring minds want to know!


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TORN
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Posted: Sat 02 Apr , 2005 5:30 pm
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Mrs. Mertz wrote:
The Great and Powerful TORN wrote:
THE RESIDENT MISERABLE POLTROO
Shouldn't that be "poltroon"? My old gaffer - the pirate, y'know - was a real stickler for spelling.


Oh, and what part of the Adventures do you admire most, Senor Poltroo? Shall we... sing? Can you say... Ring a ding dillo? Do you have yellow boots? Are you now, or have you ever been, married to a water sprite? Do you like to carry water lillies about? Inquiring minds want to know!
SHOULDN'T THAT BE "Señor Poltroo"? YOUR OLD GAFFER - THE PIRATE, Y'KNOW - WAS A REAL STICKLER FOR SPELLING. YOU'VE GOT SOME 'SPLAINING TO DO!!!

:x :x :x

SIGNED,

THE RESIDENT MISERABLE POLTROO


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Meneltarma
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Posted: Sun 03 Apr , 2005 5:13 pm
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The Hobbit.


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Maeglin
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Posted: Mon 04 Apr , 2005 6:34 am
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Wasnt Lord of the Rings chosen as book of the past millenium? Suddenly when writing that down it sounds so big.

But i would chose LOTR, not one book made me feel so involved and close to all those places and characters. And the book changed my life.

Later I read the Hobbit, which i enjoyed and would love to see filmed but then a bit more mature. And the silmarillion is also a masterpiece yet more like reading a history book for me ;)

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Dindraug
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Posted: Mon 04 Apr , 2005 7:42 am
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You forgot to mention 'Board of the Rings' Di :Q

I know it was a slip of the typing finger but the Middle Earth Magna Carta should be included in any real list of best books ;)

Is this revenge enough for making me try and choose between the three?

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Mummpizz
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Posted: Mon 04 Apr , 2005 9:09 am
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The Hobbit.

It is crafted in one piece. Much care and consideration was spent upon dramaturgy and language. Tolkien knew what he wanted to tell and it shows.

LOTR evolved by itself, has many flaws and loops, starts as child's play and ends up knee-deep in quasi-messiahlike pomp. If it weren't for the "Scouring of the Shire", I wouldn't like that book.

The Silmarillion is a wastepaper bin turned over. Everything from scribbles to scratch, some promising, some well earning its place in the bin.

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RoseMorninStar
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Posted: Tue 03 May , 2005 11:34 pm
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Voronwe, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
And Mummpizz...no disrespect intended...but ...AS IF!!!!!

I had not read The Hobbit/LotR/Silmarillion until I was an adult. I did not consider 'fantasy' a genré that interested me. Then I picked up a copy of Harry Potter to review it for children (at the time there was quite the controversy surrounding it) and I wondered what other works I had missed. So I picked up a copy of 'The Hobbit'.

'The Hobbit' certainly qualifies as a children's classic, but LotR is so much more. Then I read the Sil. And though I am an avid reader...I found it difficult..but oh so rich. I can only imagine what that book would have become had Tolkien had the time to put it into order before it's publication.

The more I read of Tolkien's work, the more respect I give it. It is the world he created. The sense of history that he bestowed on his beloved Middle-Earth that makes it more than just a novel. Without 'The Hobbit', LotR would not have been created.. and even when Tolkien was writing LotR, it was as a sequel to 'The Hobbit'...not intended to be his masterpiece (which the Silmarillion was intended to be). Tolkien's ideas and history of Middle-Earth so infused his other works, that they became a part of it-without a direct intention of making it so.

I also cannot help but have a great deal of admiration for Tolkien's work as a philologist. His experience with languages and myths and their origins and purpose is where the depth and richness of his stories come from. For example, I wonder, with the recent discoveries of 'the Hobbit' on the Indonesian Island of Florés, if Tolkien had heard of the stories and myths of a little people in the not-so-distant past, co-existing with a more 'modern' man. I love the way he weaves in the flavor of myths and legends from other cultures and truly tries to make it a historical myth not just on the surface...but in all its facets. In his mind he created something real, from the distant past. Something so real, he could not deny the sharing of it. We are all richer for it.

So, in a long-winded way, I vote for 'the whole body of work is a masterpiece' because as most of us know, the best known parts of the work (Hobbit/LotR) are just the tip of the iceberg. And what is especially cool about that is, that is the way real history (& mythology/legends) is.


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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Tue 03 May , 2005 11:57 pm
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Quote:
Voronwe, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Rose, you're obviously a highly intelligent and discerning individual. ;) I look forward to your sharing your insights and perspective about Tolkien's work. :)


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IdylleSeethes
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Posted: Wed 04 May , 2005 1:45 am
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Rose,

Welcome. Very well thought out post, even if you agree with Voronwe. ;)


Di,

I understand your point, but over 35 years of reading Tolkien has caused it to all blend in my mind. It's probably just a sign of old age. So much has already fallen out of my head. Not only can I not make a choice between The Hobbit, LOTR, and the Sil, I would be more expansive. I would include the whole body of work concerning Middle Earth. Yes, to Mummpizz's dismay, all of those bits of trash.

I have mentioned before that I study Arthurian mythology. The Arthurian legends may be the most important mythology from western Europe, so far as influence on us today. They are a collection of incongruent fragments that make the Sil seem refined. That experience makes me very appreciative of Tolkien. HOME, rather than the Sil, may actually fit Mummpizz's description of scratches from a wastepaper bin, but I treasure every scrap. I only regret that Christopher did not salvage more. I know of no comparable body of work.

Is Voronwe is going to tell me I agree with him again?

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Wed 04 May , 2005 1:52 am
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No, Voronwe is going to say that he agrees with you, ;)


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RoseMorninStar
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Posted: Wed 04 May , 2005 2:51 am
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Voronwe...I also Love Van Gogh...perhaps we have much in common.

HoME is indeed a wealth of bits & pieces..not only can one delve into the workings of the great literary mind and process of Tolkien.. it reminds me so much of real history.. bits & pieces that don't always match up perfectly..parts that are missing & will perhaps always be a mystery. The absent Epilogue(s) are perhaps my favorite 'scraps' (I prefer to refer to them as 'gems'). If you have not read them, I have them typed up and can send them to anyone upon request. They are a treat!


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