board77

As opposed to tragic, which has all that classical baggage to the definition...it's got to be someone in the Narn i Hin Hurin, but there are soooo many to pick from...

It's got to be Nienor/Niniel. Completely innocent and a completely horrible fate.

Agreed. Túrin, much as I love him, had a lot of chances for things to go differently. Nienor was just caught in the net of misfortune through no doing of her own. Just an innocent bystander.

E. All of the above.

And throw in Beleg and Gwindor, as well.

I agree with TORN, the question in the title, and the question int he Poll aren't the same...

The whole of "Narn i Hin Hurin" is filled with more tragedy than I care to deal with...

As for most "Pathetic" I would chose any of Feanor's son's, but then again they chose their oath.

The name that jumped out at me when I first saw the thread was Thingol, who got caught up in the same lust for the Silmaril as the rest of them, but was bound by no oath, and it still caused his death.

Voronwe_the_Faithful wrote:

E. All of the above.

And throw in Beleg and Gwindor, as well.

And the whole Silmarillion behind.


I voted Finduilas, as she's got the most unrewarding part to play: fall in love with a dumb hero, get abducted, and then killed in the attempt of rescue (sans love, pity, but what can one do about it). Therefore she gets the award as most realistic and most pathetic part.

Or did I mistake Finduilas for somebody else? As my comment above mentions, I don't think too good of the Silmarillion.

Beleg and Gwindor...yeah, I thought about adding them.

Thingol I find more classically tragic than pathetic...along with Feanor and his ilk.

I guess it depends on which definition of Pathetic you use...

Quote:

pa·thet·ic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (p-thtk) also pa·thet·i·cal (--kl)
adj.
1. Arousing or capable of arousing sympathetic sadness and compassion: “The old, rather shabby room struck her as extraordinarily pathetic” (John Galsworthy).
2. Arousing or capable of arousing scornful pity.

I generally think of the second definition, which is what I think of for Thingol and Feanor's sons...

I will reword the thread title appropriately.

ah yes, thank you

The damn trees....

Tree one: Oh nice day, think I will just stand around and relax
Tree two: Yup.
Tree one: What the hell?
Tree two: Dude your falling over....dude....hey what the hell????

Ok I think its Nienor/Niniel, sad sad messed up stuff there.

Agree.

I picked Nienel/niniel, but I think Finduilas should be up there too. The story is so sad. Why did Turin have to be so stubborn.

Wilma wrote:

I picked Nienel/niniel, but I think Finduilas should be up there too. The story is so sad. Why did Turin have to be so stubborn.

Wilma, I don't think that statements like that about Turin can be made without taking into account the fact that from the time that he was a small child until the time of his death, he was under the direct curse of Morgoth. All of his actions must be judged in that light. And, of course, when he allowed Finduilas to be carried off to her horrible death, he was caught by the binding spell of the lidless eyes of Glaurung, father of dragons.

Yes, Turin was stubborn, and that stubbornness led to great sorrow for him and those he loved. But how much of that stubbornness was due to his own nature and how much of it was due to Morgoth's curse? Its hard to say, but one indication of Tolkien's own opinion of Turin's inate worth is the fact that in older versions of the mythology, in the final battle, when Morgoth returns from the void, it is Turin that strikes him down finally. And in these older tales, "it issaid that Turin is named 'among the Gods.'"

Actually I think my vote for who is the most "pathetic" (as the question was initially phrased) would probably go to poor Sador Labadal, who fled from his fear only to meet it head on.

So I guess the question is how much responsibility does Turin have for the situation? That I don't know. I always thought that Turin was presented with an oppourtunity to escape the curse. At least that is what I thought. It was just up to him to take it. I must say though that I really didn't understand most of the story until the fourth read of the Sil and right now I am on my fifth

I'd like to ask people who are more familiar with the story, how many decisions that Turin made were curse influenced, and where if any were there any oppourtunites for Turin to escape the curse.

I haven't read either the Silm or the UT in ages (and I really should), but it always seemed to me that Túrin had chances to take another route. Obviously things like his meeting Niniel and her not remembering anything are the curse working and the slaying of Beleg, but other things didn't have to be the way they were, for example his choice not to accept the mercy of Thingol. (It was Thingol, right?). I'm sure someone else will come along and correct, but that was my impression.

"But upon all whom you love my thought shall weight as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair. Wherever they go, evil shall arise. Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel. Whatsoever they do shall turn against them. They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death."

Told you someone would come along and correct me.

Which brings up the question: just how did Melkor work his will upon Turin et al? What were the mechanics of the curse? Or was it all smoke and mirrors to twist Hurin's mind against Thingol? If Melkor could cause some of the "mischances" that afflicted Turin et al, it implies that he had a function more akin to the traditional Christian devil, able to actually cause things to happen, and to enter the minds of men...which seems at odds with his physicality as JRRT portrays.