board77

The Last Homely Site on the Web

Who in the Sil has the most pathos? No scorn involved. :)

Post Reply   Page 2 of 3  [ 46 posts ]
Jump to page « 1 2 3 »
Who gets the rawest deal?
Turin
  
33% [ 5 ]
Nienor/Niniel
  
40% [ 6 ]
Hurin
  
7% [ 1 ]
Morwen
  
0% [ 0 ]
Finduilas
  
13% [ 2 ]
Brandir
  
0% [ 0 ]
someone even more pathetic
  
7% [ 1 ]
Total votes: 15
Author Message
Voronwë_the_Faithful
Post subject:
Posted: Sun 24 Apr , 2005 8:42 pm
Offline
 
Posts: 5174
Joined: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 6:53 pm
Contact: Website
 
Ax, the answer to that question is I think in the very concept of "Morgoth's Ring". As Tolkien said:
Quote:
To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth -- hence all things that were born on Earth and live on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'.


Top
Profile Quote
Wilma
Post subject:
Posted: Mon 25 Apr , 2005 4:30 am
Takoyaki is love
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 2994
Joined: Tue 22 Feb , 2005 12:55 pm
Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
 
Hmmm when it's put that way. But I am starting to think Melkor does not have all consuming power over those in middle earth does he? He just likes to give the impression of that. I just keep thinking what would have happened if Turin married Finduilas. To me that seems like a key chance for Turin and everyone to break the curse, although things could still go downhill. I do not want to believe that the Valar or Eru would just let Melkors Curse endure. That is why I want to believe if Turin married Finduilas, or went back to Thingol, or at least kept his own name, things would be different. If there was no way whatsoever out of this curse, that would seem pretty cold, for it to happen to such a faithful family, and to have no back door. Also that make Melkor seem even more powerful. To those who fear him, they can see that cursing his name (being defiant?) can lead to some serious hurt and pain for your family.

I have just started reading Narn... in UT. I deliberately skipped over it since the story in the Sil was sad enough for me. Now I know about Turins childhood. :bawl: :bawl: :bawl: :bawl: :bawl:

_________________

Itoshiki Sensei from Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei. Avatar by: sparklessence

"There is no such thing as coincidence in this world, only hitsuzen." - Yuko Ichihara and Kimihiro Watanuki - xxxHolic

"I'm modest, I'll keep my knickers on and die!" - My sister Grace commenting on Bear Gryllis on an episode of Oprah :rofl:

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Axordil
Post subject:
Posted: Mon 25 Apr , 2005 8:04 pm
Not so deep as a well
Offline
 
Posts: 7360
Joined: Tue 11 Jan , 2005 3:02 am
Location: In your wildest dreams
 
Liable to staining and stained with no chance...two different things. What chance in hell did Nienor have?

_________________

Destiny is a rhythm track on which we must improvise.

In some cases, firing the drummer helps.


Top
Profile Quote
MaidenOfTheShieldarm
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 26 Apr , 2005 3:21 pm
Another bright red day
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 2402
Joined: Sat 12 Mar , 2005 10:35 pm
Location: Far from the coast of Utopia
 
Voronwe_the_Faithful wrote:
Ax, the answer to that question is I think in the very concept of "Morgoth's Ring". As Tolkien said:
Quote:
To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth -- hence all things that were born on Earth and live on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'.
Even so, part of it had to do with Túrin's nature. Nienor was under the same curse, and yeah, bad stuff happened to her but not nearly as much as happened to Túrin. Nienor remains entirely innocent the entire time. Nothing that happened can be said to be her fault. I wouldn't say that that's true of Túrin. For example, the slaying of Saeros. That's not the result of Morgoth's curse. That's a result of the clashing of the personalities of Saeros and Túrin. In my opinion, that would have happened with or without the curse. Therein lies the difference.

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Wilma
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 26 Apr , 2005 3:26 pm
Takoyaki is love
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 2994
Joined: Tue 22 Feb , 2005 12:55 pm
Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
 
I thought Saeros dying was due to the curse. :oops: I thought Turin's reaction afterward was due to himself, since Thingol, an Elven King seemed pretty willing to forgive him and sent someone to look for him. THe personality clash was due to Saeros and Turin though.

_________________

Itoshiki Sensei from Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei. Avatar by: sparklessence

"There is no such thing as coincidence in this world, only hitsuzen." - Yuko Ichihara and Kimihiro Watanuki - xxxHolic

"I'm modest, I'll keep my knickers on and die!" - My sister Grace commenting on Bear Gryllis on an episode of Oprah :rofl:

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Voronwë_the_Faithful
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 26 Apr , 2005 3:34 pm
Offline
 
Posts: 5174
Joined: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 6:53 pm
Contact: Website
 
I don't think that you can separate "Turin's personality" from Morgoth's curse. As the quote that I cited above implies. Everything that Turin (and Nienor and Morwen) did and said came under Morgoth's malign influence. What of Morwen's stubborn insistence to go find Turin at Nargothrond against the advice of Thingol and Melian? What of Nienor's insistence at going along with that search party, to disastrous results?


Top
Profile Quote
MaidenOfTheShieldarm
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 26 Apr , 2005 4:34 pm
Another bright red day
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 2402
Joined: Sat 12 Mar , 2005 10:35 pm
Location: Far from the coast of Utopia
 
Voronwe_the_Faithful wrote:
I don't think that you can separate "Turin's personality" from Morgoth's curse. As the quote that I cited above implies. Everything that Turin (and Nienor and Morwen) did and said came under Morgoth's malign influence. What of Morwen's stubborn insistence to go find Turin at Nargothrond against the advice of Thingol and Melian? What of Nienor's insistence at going along with that search party, to disastrous results?
Well, everyone is somewhat stained by Morgoth, but aren't they also created by Eru? So they aren't just stained, there's goodness too. Nienor insisted on going with the search party out of love, which Morgoth was able to twist to his own purposes. Morwen is Túrin's mother. Of course she wants to search for her son, danger or no. Túrin is by nature rash and bold. If I recall correctly, he was like that even before he was cursed (though already to soome degree stained). Melkor can't create, after all. He couldn't make Túrin what he was. He could only use what was already there and exacerbate it, no?

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Athrabeth
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 26 Apr , 2005 11:01 pm
Nameless
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 692
Joined: Wed 23 Feb , 2005 2:17 am
Location: On the Way
 
MaidenOfTheShieldarm wrote:
Voronwe_the_Faithful wrote:
I don't think that you can separate "Turin's personality" from Morgoth's curse. As the quote that I cited above implies. Everything that Turin (and Nienor and Morwen) did and said came under Morgoth's malign influence. What of Morwen's stubborn insistence to go find Turin at Nargothrond against the advice of Thingol and Melian? What of Nienor's insistence at going along with that search party, to disastrous results?
Well, everyone is somewhat stained by Morgoth, but aren't they also created by Eru? So they aren't just stained, there's goodness too. Nienor insisted on going with the search party out of love, which Morgoth was able to twist to his own purposes. Morwen is Túrin's mother. Of course she wants to search for her son, danger or no. Túrin is by nature rash and bold. If I recall correctly, he was like that even before he was cursed (though already to soome degree stained). Melkor can't create, after all. He couldn't make Túrin what he was. He could only use what was already there and exacerbate it, no?
I think that in Tolkien's constructed mythology, the binding power of curses and oaths is "supernaturally" strong. For instance, the "doom of Mandos", I believe, can quite rightfully be considered as both a prophesy and a curse upon the Noldor, and it is only through divine intervention that it is finally laid to rest. Morgoth's curse upon Hurin's family is as binding as the spell that forces him to watch it unfold, and here, there is no hand of Providence that enters the story to set it right. The traps are set for the prey, cunning and unavoidable. Each one of the innocent victims caught within these traps is to be pitied, but IMO, none more so than Hurin himself, who must witness, helpless and alone, the long torment of all those he loves. As a parent, this tale, without question, is the most difficult to read of all of Tolkien's works, because the thought of having to watch my own children's choices become so manipulated and twisted and "wrong", to watch them suffer so horribly, is almost beyond enduring.

Perhaps this is why Tolkien (as Eru?) "saved a place" for Turin to finally set things right at The End Of Days, acting as the instrument that secures the final defeat of Melkor.

_________________

[ img ]
"The pie that can be eaten is not the Eternal Pie."


Top
Profile Quote
Voronwë_the_Faithful
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 27 Apr , 2005 12:01 am
Offline
 
Posts: 5174
Joined: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 6:53 pm
Contact: Website
 
I knew there was a reason why I held off from responding to Maiden this morning. :love:
Quote:
Perhaps this is why Tolkien (as Eru?) "saved a place" for Turin to finally set things right at The End Of Days, acting as the instrument that secures the final defeat of Melkor.
My thought exactly. I should add that, at least in the older versions of the tale, it both Turin and Nineor are raised to the level of the Valar. And not only that, but it is at least implied that they are "together" and that their incestious relationship that was such a horror as mortals no longer seemed to be a problem. There's something very profound about the idea of Turin and Nienor be raised to the level of the Gods as a result of their suffering at the hands of Morgoth, but I haven't been able to put my finger on exactly what it is.


Top
Profile Quote
MaidenOfTheShieldarm
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 27 Apr , 2005 1:38 am
Another bright red day
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 2402
Joined: Sat 12 Mar , 2005 10:35 pm
Location: Far from the coast of Utopia
 
Voronwe_the_Faithful wrote:
I knew there was a reason why I held off from responding to Maiden this morning. :love:
Quote:
Perhaps this is why Tolkien (as Eru?) "saved a place" for Turin to finally set things right at The End Of Days, acting as the instrument that secures the final defeat of Melkor.
My thought exactly. I should add that, at least in the older versions of the tale, it both Turin and Nineor are raised to the level of the Valar. And not only that, but it is at least implied that they are "together" and that their incestious relationship that was such a horror as mortals no longer seemed to be a problem. There's something very profound about the idea of Turin and Nienor be raised to the level of the Gods as a result of their suffering at the hands of Morgoth, but I haven't been able to put my finger on exactly what it is.
Not having read any of the HoME :oops: except the LT, I don't really know what happens except what you have mentioned. Perhaps it comes from Tolkien's religion, ie, they were martyred/sacrificed in a way, and thus are raised to divinity? Perhaps I'm stating the obvious? Anyway, I agree that it has a profoundity (is that a word?) that I can't quite place either. Besides, Túrin fangirl that I am, it makes me happy. :) However, why doesn't Húrin also get revenge at the Dagor Dagorath? He suffered as much as they did, and he knowingly made the sacrifice. They didn't. Doesn't seem very fair.

Sidenote: Athrabeth, I love your sig! It's really a lovely painting. I had just submitted that for my TORC sig the day before the big blow up. It was rejected. . . and then, of course, it didn't matter.

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Primula_Baggins
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 27 Apr , 2005 2:05 am
Living in hope
Offline
 
Posts: 7291
Joined: Sat 29 Jan , 2005 5:54 pm
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
 
OT: I love that sig, too. Why on Earth would they have rejected it at TORC? Was it too big or something?


Top
Profile Quote
MaidenOfTheShieldarm
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 27 Apr , 2005 2:09 am
Another bright red day
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 2402
Joined: Sat 12 Mar , 2005 10:35 pm
Location: Far from the coast of Utopia
 
It was just too big. I always exported things from iPhoto to resize them, not having any other graphics program, so it was always kind of an estimate where 30K would fall.

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Athrabeth
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 27 Apr , 2005 5:07 am
Nameless
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 692
Joined: Wed 23 Feb , 2005 2:17 am
Location: On the Way
 
Voronwe wrote:
There's something very profound about the idea of Turin and Nienor be raised to the level of the Gods as a result of their suffering at the hands of Morgoth, but I haven't been able to put my finger on exactly what it is.
Perhaps it's because there was a suspension of the natural workings of their free will under Morgoth's curse, Eru's gift and "guarantee" to both his Children and the Ainur (or, if not a suspension, then a "twisting" or most terrible subversion of that free will). I really can't think of another instance where "innocents" become so victimized and brutalized by Melkor without any hope of self-determination or path to personal redemption. If free will and doom have some sort of dynamic relationship (and I believe they do ;) ), then Nienor and Turin were denied, during their time in Arda Marred, their due legacy as Children of Iluvatar. For this unfathomable loss of the very heart of their existence, perhaps the only "grace" that Eru could afford them that could truly redress their suffering and "staining" was bestowing them with such an honour. What say you? :)
MaidenOfTheShieldarm wrote:
However, why doesn't Húrin also get revenge at the Dagor Dagorath? He suffered as much as they did, and he knowingly made the sacrifice. They didn't. Doesn't seem very fair.
I think that's just it. He knowingly made the sacrifice. His free will remained intact, despite his years of torment at the hands of Morgoth. His full awareness of the consequences of the curse was the entire point of the curse, while Turin and Nienor (and let's not forget poor Morwen) were never aware of the forces acting upon them, and were denied even the possibility of finding their own freely chosen paths (even if those would lead to suffering and failing).

OT: Maiden, I always use Picture Gear to resize or reduce the "K factor" of my pictures when the need arises. Very quick and user friendly (it has to be if I can use it! :D )

_________________

[ img ]
"The pie that can be eaten is not the Eternal Pie."


Top
Profile Quote
Voronwë_the_Faithful
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 27 Apr , 2005 6:44 am
Offline
 
Posts: 5174
Joined: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 6:53 pm
Contact: Website
 
Quote:
What say you? :)
What can I say? You've already said what I wanted to, but could not find the way. Again.

So I am left with this: "Merci beaucoup." :love:

And this: :horse:

And of course this: :Wooper:


Top
Profile Quote
Wilma
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 27 Apr , 2005 10:39 am
Takoyaki is love
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 2994
Joined: Tue 22 Feb , 2005 12:55 pm
Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
 
Well I just read the recent discussion and I keep thinking what about Finduilas? What was the point of her falling in love with Turin? Didn't Brandir fall in love Nienor? I have not read HOME. Turin and Nienor's relationship isn't quite horriffic once they have passed on? Didn't it drive each of them to kill themselves? I think I am confused.

_________________

Itoshiki Sensei from Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei. Avatar by: sparklessence

"There is no such thing as coincidence in this world, only hitsuzen." - Yuko Ichihara and Kimihiro Watanuki - xxxHolic

"I'm modest, I'll keep my knickers on and die!" - My sister Grace commenting on Bear Gryllis on an episode of Oprah :rofl:

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Dindraug
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 27 Apr , 2005 12:49 pm
Tricksy Elf!
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 2306
Joined: Wed 27 Oct , 2004 6:20 pm
Location: Tanelorn
 
I just skimmed through this one and wanted to make an observation.

You have only mentioned the traditional good guys, you have not mentioned the bad. I wondered why?

I know this is one of those 'nature of evil/predestination' things, but I am not sure that Glaurung, or even Morgoth himself, is not essentailly the one who gets the roughest deal. It is a sad fact that at the Sil is all about the fall of the bad guys, which we can see was set up from the beggining.

Is that not sadder than a wasted life like Turins or pointless death like Bleg. afterall, Beleg would be reborn in Valinor, and Turin would go onto wherever men go. Poor old Morgoth gets shut beyond the doors of the night, and who knows (or cares) what happens to dragons once they die?

Anyway, that's my contribution for now.

Oh, and I am being serious in this, why were only the 'good guys' in the list?

_________________

'When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from delusion, it is called Religion'.

~Robert M. Pirsig


Top
Profile Quote
Axordil
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 27 Apr , 2005 2:11 pm
Not so deep as a well
Offline
 
Posts: 7360
Joined: Tue 11 Jan , 2005 3:02 am
Location: In your wildest dreams
 
Din--

Good point, although I maintain only the Children of Iluvatar can have pathos, thus neatly dodging the question. :)

It's the old free will vs. predestination thing. How can Eru/God know all that will happen without essentially causing it to happen? A lot rides on which of these statements seems most accurate:

1--Eru knew that Melkor would hose things up...his plan depended on it in fact, and thus he is a right bastard.

2--Eru didn't know that Melkor would screw things up and is therefore not omniscient.

3--Eru knew Melkor would screw things up, but couldn't stop him without violating his free will.

4--Eru created Melkor and the rest of the Ainur as imperfect beings who could fall, and let it go from there as it would.

I haven't read all of HoME... :oops: ...what is to be the ultimate disposition of Melkor after the Dagor Dagorath?

Athrabeth--
I had forgotten that bit from HoME. And it is, as CJRT notes, a very curious thing his father proposes...a redemption unique in his mythos.

_________________

Destiny is a rhythm track on which we must improvise.

In some cases, firing the drummer helps.


Top
Profile Quote
MaidenOfTheShieldarm
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 27 Apr , 2005 3:49 pm
Another bright red day
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 2402
Joined: Sat 12 Mar , 2005 10:35 pm
Location: Far from the coast of Utopia
 
I have a question. This may have been already answered, but I'm not sure. . . Wasn't part of the whole Gift/Doom of Men thing that they had irrevocable free will? Thus, no one, perhaps not even Eru, could take that away. I could see how an Oath would shape fates, but a curse is different, because that's shaping their fates without knowledge. However, has Húrin, by refusing to submit to Morgoth, give up their free will by giving up his own? It just doesn't seem entirely consistent.

Athrabeth: thanks for the tip! Is that somethingn I can download? It would certainly be easier than making wild guesses. . .

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Voronwë_the_Faithful
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 27 Apr , 2005 4:50 pm
Offline
 
Posts: 5174
Joined: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 6:53 pm
Contact: Website
 
Wilma wrote:
Well I just read the recent discussion and I keep thinking what about Finduilas? What was the point of her falling in love with Turin? Didn't Brandir fall in love Nienor?
The point is that Finduilas and Brandir were able to fall in love with Turin and Nineor, but Turin and and Nineor were not free to fall in love with anyone except each other, because of their doom.
Quote:
I have a question. This may have been already answered, but I'm not sure. . . Wasn't part of the whole Gift/Doom of Men thing that they had irrevocable free will? Thus, no one, perhaps not even Eru, could take that away.
Maiden, the very point that Ath is making is that Tolkien (at least in these older versions of the story, is saying that alone of Mortal race, Turin and Nineor are removed from the Gift/Doom of Men, since the become counted among the Valar and do not leave the circles of the world. Ath has suggested (and I agree) that this is directly related to the fact that they, alone among mortals, were denied free will.

There is of course Tuor's ambiguous fate to consider, but that is perhaps more properly the subject of a separate discussion.


Top
Profile Quote
MaidenOfTheShieldarm
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 27 Apr , 2005 5:48 pm
Another bright red day
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 2402
Joined: Sat 12 Mar , 2005 10:35 pm
Location: Far from the coast of Utopia
 
Voronwe_the_Faithful wrote:
Quote:
I have a question. This may have been already answered, but I'm not sure. . . Wasn't part of the whole Gift/Doom of Men thing that they had irrevocable free will? Thus, no one, perhaps not even Eru, could take that away.
Maiden, the very point that Ath is making is that Tolkien (at least in these older versions of the story, is saying that alone of Mortal race, Turin and Nineor are removed from the Gift/Doom of Men, since the become counted among the Valar and do not leave the circles of the world. Ath has suggested (and I agree) that this is directly related to the fact that they, alone among mortals, were denied free will.

There is of course Tuor's ambiguous fate to consider, but that is perhaps more properly the subject of a separate discussion.

So they are raised to the level of Valar because they were denied free well. . . but how is Melkor able to deny them free will in the first place. I thought that wasn't possible. I'm sorry, I know I'm being terribly slow. . .

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Display: Sort by: Direction:
Post Reply   Page 2 of 3  [ 46 posts ]
Return to “Literary Rambles: There & Back Again...” | Jump to page « 1 2 3 »
Jump to: