board77

The Last Homely Site on the Web

Tolkien and Irish Mythology - 3. The Courting of Emer

Post Reply   Page 1 of 4  [ 63 posts ]
Jump to page 1 2 3 4 »
Author Message
Alatar
Post subject: Tolkien and Irish Mythology - 3. The Courting of Emer
Posted: Tue 17 May , 2005 7:02 pm
of Vinyamar
Offline
 
Posts: 8274
Joined: Mon 28 Feb , 2005 4:39 pm
Location: Ireland
Contact: ICQ
 
<EDIT>
I've changing the title of this thread to reflect the proposed new direction of the discussion.
</EDIT>

I was discussing old Irish legends with TrueHobbit a couple of weeks ago and I referred to the story of Cuchulainn. Also, in reference to my childrens names there was some enquiry about the history of the names. Finally, Tolkien often regretted the fact that the Norman invasion had all but wiped out English Mythology and mourned it's loss greatly.

I promised Hobby that I would look for a copy of "Cuchulainn of Muirthemne" by Lady Gregory and that I would send it on to her, but unfortunately I could not find a copy. It suddenly occurred to me that it was probably out of copyright and in the public domain so I looked for a copy on the net. Lo and Behold, I found it!

To give a little backstory, an Englishwoman, Lady Augusta Gregory, was widowed in the late 1800's and chose to spend a lot of her time in the country estate of her late Husband in Coole in the West of Ireland. She developed a desire to learn the Irish language and from this began to learn the old legends. She was surprised to see that these tales existed only in the oral tradition or alternatively in ancient Gaelic texts that were inaccessible to laymen of the time. She made it her lifes work to take down these tales and to structure a narrative out of them that would be written in English as this was already becoming the dominant language in Ireland.

Irish people are incredibly indebted to her for her foresight in this. Without her, many of these legends would simply have been forgotten and lost.

I hope some of you enjoy them:

Cuchulainn of Muirthemne

Of Gods and Fighting Men

Last edited by Alatar on Tue 06 Sep , 2005 12:57 pm, edited 4 times in total.

_________________

[ img ]
These are my friends, see how they glisten...


Top
Profile Quote
truehobbit
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 18 May , 2005 12:50 am
WYSIWYG
Offline
 
Posts: 3228
Joined: Wed 27 Oct , 2004 6:37 pm
Location: wherever
 
w00t - great find! Thanks for posting the links, Alatar! :D

I hope to be able to read it soon - it might take a while, as it's quite a bit to read, and no scarcity of things to read elsewhere - so I'll post comments as I go along (and hopefully others will too? :D ) - the Irish Mythology Virgin, if you want (along the lines of "the Tolkien Virgin"). ;)

And thanks once more for looking for the books! :hug:

_________________

From our key principles:

We listen to one another, make good-faith efforts to understand one another, and we treat one another respectfully at all times.


Top
Profile Quote
samaranth
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 18 May , 2005 1:51 am
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 268
Joined: Thu 24 Feb , 2005 10:50 pm
Location: Sydney
 
Thanks from me too, Alatar. Those of Irish descent also owe a debt to Lady Gregory. :D

Hobby - I'd be very interested in doing a readalong. Perhaps Alatar can fill in the gaps with his local knowledge, if he doesn't mind?


Top
Profile Quote
Alatar
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 18 May , 2005 10:14 am
of Vinyamar
Offline
 
Posts: 8274
Joined: Mon 28 Feb , 2005 4:39 pm
Location: Ireland
Contact: ICQ
 
I'd be happy to shepherd you through a reading but I'm not sure what I would have to offer personally. This stuff is rarely mentioned here and I'm probably the only person I know who has bothered to read these books. We were taught these stories in simplified form in primary school but by the time we hit an age that would be interested academically we had moved on to Peig, Yeats, Ó'Díreann, Ó'Casey and the others.

As a result, most children knew the story of Setanta and how he became Cúchulainn, a little about the Red Branch Knights and some scattered bits and pieces about Fionn and the Fianna. I'm not even sure that it's still being taught today. Most aduts however have long since forgotten anything except the rudimentary basics.

Interestingly, both Republicans and Unionists claim Cúchulainn as their hero since he was known as the Hound of Ulster who defended Ulster against foreign usurpers. It's all a matter of perspective really.

Alatar

_________________

[ img ]
These are my friends, see how they glisten...


Top
Profile Quote
Pippin4242
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 18 May , 2005 9:29 pm
Hasta la victoria, siempre
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 3978
Joined: Sun 13 Mar , 2005 7:49 pm
Location: Outer Heaven
 
I'm halfway through reading Lady Gregory's version. :) When I finish it I'll be sure to let you know what I think. :D

(Wasn't there a guy on TORC called Cuchulainn? Was that what made me choose that one in particular? :scratch )

*~Pips~*

_________________

Avatar is a male me, drawn by a very close friend. Just don't ask why.


Top
Profile Quote
Alatar
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 18 May , 2005 10:00 pm
of Vinyamar
Offline
 
Posts: 8274
Joined: Mon 28 Feb , 2005 4:39 pm
Location: Ireland
Contact: ICQ
 
Don't be shy Pip. Give us your opinion as you go along. It'd be like reading along with you.

What do you think so far? Do you see any parallels to Tolkien?

Alatar

_________________

[ img ]
These are my friends, see how they glisten...


Top
Profile Quote
truehobbit
Post subject:
Posted: Thu 19 May , 2005 8:22 pm
WYSIWYG
Offline
 
Posts: 3228
Joined: Wed 27 Oct , 2004 6:37 pm
Location: wherever
 
Alatar, you could help by giving some hints as to pronunciation of names! ;)

Seeing all those strange words and wondering what they might sound like (and how much I'm messing them up when I hear them in my mind) makes me dizzy. :)

Wow, Pips, you're a quick reader! :Q

_________________

From our key principles:

We listen to one another, make good-faith efforts to understand one another, and we treat one another respectfully at all times.


Top
Profile Quote
Pippin4242
Post subject:
Posted: Sun 22 May , 2005 6:40 pm
Hasta la victoria, siempre
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 3978
Joined: Sun 13 Mar , 2005 7:49 pm
Location: Outer Heaven
 
I was reading it already! :P

It's under my bed somewhere I think- I'll skim what I read before I let my room become a mad shithole, then I'll tell you what I think. ;)

*~Pips~*

_________________

Avatar is a male me, drawn by a very close friend. Just don't ask why.


Top
Profile Quote
Alatar
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 07 Jun , 2005 10:46 am
of Vinyamar
Offline
 
Posts: 8274
Joined: Mon 28 Feb , 2005 4:39 pm
Location: Ireland
Contact: ICQ
 
I've started looking through this and I'd like to start a little study group if anyone's interested. As Englands closest neighbour (well France is a little closer geographically) I think it might be interesting to compare Irelands mythology with Tolkien's invented mythology for England.

NOTE: This will be simplistic and seriously user friendly! I am not a scholar and my knowledge of Irish mythology is probably less than my knowledge of the Silmarillion. This will be a "learn as we go" approach rather than a lecture series. We'll work in a similar fashion to the M000bies reads the books threads. I'll change the thread title to reflect the current chapter in "Cuchulainn of Muirtheimne" and you'll be expected to read at your leisure, then post your observations on possible parallels and comparisons with Tolkiens work.


Anyone interested?

Could an admin please move this thread to the Hall of Fire?

Thanks,
Alatar

_________________

[ img ]
These are my friends, see how they glisten...


Top
Profile Quote
samaranth
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 07 Jun , 2005 12:58 pm
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 268
Joined: Thu 24 Feb , 2005 10:50 pm
Location: Sydney
 
I would be interested to tag along, Alatar. 'Seriously user friendly' should just about fit my pace. :)


Top
Profile Quote
truehobbit
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 07 Jun , 2005 2:42 pm
WYSIWYG
Offline
 
Posts: 3228
Joined: Wed 27 Oct , 2004 6:37 pm
Location: wherever
 
Moved to Hall of Fire at Alatar's request! :)

I've so far read the first two chapters only of the Cuchulainn story, and even in the things that in my view compare to Tolkien would have thought there were more differences than similarities - it seems closer to other classical mythologies than to Tolkien - I'm very interested in a detail study, though (and hope that once the charter discussion comes to an end I'll actually have time for this! ;) ).

_________________

From our key principles:

We listen to one another, make good-faith efforts to understand one another, and we treat one another respectfully at all times.


Top
Profile Quote
Voronwë_the_Faithful
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 07 Jun , 2005 2:48 pm
Offline
 
Posts: 5169
Joined: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 6:53 pm
Contact: Website
 
Fascinating stuff, Al. :) This is probably one that I will lurk in and read other people's comments rather then contribute myself, but I did want to at least express my interest.


Top
Profile Quote
MaidenOfTheShieldarm
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 07 Jun , 2005 4:10 pm
Another bright red day
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 2402
Joined: Sat 12 Mar , 2005 10:35 pm
Location: Far from the coast of Utopia
 
That's a really good idea, Alatar. I'm definitely going to try and read along with you all. I love Irish mythology, and I've been meaning to read the links you posted anyway. :)

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Jnyusa
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 08 Jun , 2005 4:43 am
One of the Bronte Sisters
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 5107
Joined: Tue 04 Jan , 2005 8:54 am
Location: In Situ
 
I'm really interested in this, too, Alatar. My track record is not so hot, having dropped out of the Sil read which also interests me greatly, but perhaps now that summer is here I can manage more recreational reading.

Thank you for being willing to guide us along and fill in blanks from your own knowledge. However thin your exposure in school might have been, you have to know bushels and buckets more than the rest of us do.

Jn

_________________

"All things considered, I'd rather be in Philadelphia."
Epigraph on the tombstone of W.C. Fields.


Top
Profile Quote
IdylleSeethes
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 08 Jun , 2005 7:31 am
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 911
Joined: Fri 11 Mar , 2005 5:10 pm
Location: Bretesche
 
Alatar,

I can contribute a little. It is on the fringes of things I read.

Celts of the La Tene culture migrated from around Lake Neuchatel Switzerland and entered Ireland around 200 BCE. The political system consisted of three layers of kingship with the top layer having 5 provincial kings and the lower level having 150. This was prior to the beginning of the "High Kings". See the Milesian statement below. It was a stratified agricultural society.

The story of Cuchulain (koo-hoo'-lin) takes place around the birth of Christ plus or minus a few years. This was a period of war between Ulster and Connaught. This is roughly contemporary with King Bran and Taliesen the Bard in Britain. Cuchulain is sometimes called a Celtic Achilles.

The period of High Kingship at Tara (County Meath) began sometime afterward between 200 CE and 800 CE depending on who you choose as an authority, and there are actually chronologies which start with the pre-La Tene Milesians. Since High King is mentioned here, it follows the Milesian succession. The text mentions Conchobhar [Abhradhruadh] who was the 99th king around 8 BCE.

The Red Branch Knights appear in these stories and are mentioned a few times in Arthurian literature.

The oldest written version is in the Book of Dun Cow (Lebor na hUidre), a manuscript from 1106 written at Clonmacnoise, that also included a version of Historia Brittonum (Lebor Bretnach) which is one of the few versions that mentions Nennius as the author.

_________________

Idylle in exile: the view over the laptop on a bad day
[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Alatar
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 08 Jun , 2005 9:39 am
of Vinyamar
Offline
 
Posts: 8274
Joined: Mon 28 Feb , 2005 4:39 pm
Location: Ireland
Contact: ICQ
 
IS, I appreciate having you onboard. My knowledge of this material is purely at the legendary stories level and not at the scholarly level you can offer. The stories we'll initially be looking at should not really come into the relam of the High Kings of Tara. To play with the Tolkien timeframe a little, Of Gods and Fighting men would probably relate to Valaquenta and early Silmarillion while Cúchulainn would probably fit closer into the later Silmarillion like the tales of Beren and Turin.

Given the intention to keep this light, I'll be starting with the Cúchulainn cycle, which also incorporates the "Táin Bó Cúlainge" or "Cattle Raid of Cooley" which you mention under the "Dun Cow" name. We can always backtrack to the Fir Bholg, the Tuatha De Danann and the Fianna when we're finished if people are still interested.

Cheers,
Alatar

_________________

[ img ]
These are my friends, see how they glisten...


Top
Profile Quote
Alatar
Post subject:
Posted: Fri 10 Jun , 2005 9:23 am
of Vinyamar
Offline
 
Posts: 8274
Joined: Mon 28 Feb , 2005 4:39 pm
Location: Ireland
Contact: ICQ
 
Alright Class! Sit up and pay attention at the back there! Your assignment for this week is to read the chapter

Birth of Cúchulain

Some thoughts before we start. Lady Gregory wrote these stories in what is known as "Kiltartanese". It's an English approximation of the Irish oral storytelling style as spoken by of the people of the village of Kiltartan. As such the prose falls awkwardly on a modern ear, but to me, that's part of it's charm. If you are interested in more detail on this and the background from which Lady Gregory plucked these stories (and are not bothered by some spoilers) read the following:

Preface by William Butler Yeats

To start our comparison with Tolkien, I'd like to point out the first similarity. These tales are cobbled together from various local versions, many different, to create a self contained cohesive narrative, much as Christopher had to sift through several versions of Tolkiens writing to come up with the Silmarillion. There are several different accounts of Cúchulains death, for example, but we'll discuss that when we get there!

Enjoy the tale! At the beginning of a journey, the Irish have a blessing, "May the road rise to meet you" and I'll use it here for the start of our journey into the Mythology of Ireland.

Go n'eirigh an bóthar leat! (Guh nye ree on bow hur lat)

Alatar

Note on Pronunciation:

Even in Ireland we have different pronuciations of these names depending on region and dialect, but I'll give my closest approximation to the most common pronunciation:

Conchubar: In old irish Cruh-Hoor (Modern Irish - Conor)
Emain Macha: The ch in Irish is always soft, as in Bach or almost silent
Muirtheimne: Mwir-thane

Ask me others as you need them.

Last edited by Alatar on Fri 10 Jun , 2005 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

_________________

[ img ]
These are my friends, see how they glisten...


Top
Profile Quote
ToshoftheWuffingas
Post subject:
Posted: Fri 10 Jun , 2005 9:43 am
Filthy darwinian hobbit
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 6921
Joined: Fri 11 Mar , 2005 12:52 pm
Location: Silly Suffolk
 
May the road rise up to greet you is when you have had one too many for the road.
This book as been tucked away in my library's basement for yonks and I've given it a passing look from time to time. I will try to find time to read it too.
Alatar, have you read Robert Graves' The White Goddess? Some of its ideas are crazy but it is the most wonderful synthesis of Bronze Age traditions, philosophy and religion from Ireland to the Middle East.

_________________

[ img ]
[url=http://www.flickr.com/photos

Norwich Beer Festival 2009


Top
Profile Quote
IdylleSeethes
Post subject:
Posted: Fri 10 Jun , 2005 10:56 pm
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 911
Joined: Fri 11 Mar , 2005 5:10 pm
Location: Bretesche
 
There are a few things in this first chapter that are reminiscent of Tolkien.

-The informality of leadership.

In most of European history, the throne is constantly fought over. Someone is always in power, or seeking it. In Celtic literature, as demonstrated by the ease with which Fergus and Conchubar exchange the role without emnity, the position is not fought after. The empty throne at Minas Tirith is reminiscent of a period preceding Conchubar, during which there was no King of Ireland.

-The emergence of a Wormtongue character.

Briciu is skilled at interpreting the facts in ways that lead the listener in the direction Briciu prefers. A proptotype for all politicians :D, but as related to Tolkien, he is the progenitor of Wormtongue.

-The use of birds as agents of magic

Flying creatures in Tolkien have both physical (Nazgul, Eagles) and magical (Saruman's flock, moth). The Celtic creatures have the additional property of being temporary containers for gods and humans.


Side notes:

Lug was a Celtic "hero" and "sun" god. He started as human but convinced Dagda that no one was as skilled as he in all of the arts. Variations of Lug's name appear in place names all over western Europe. More obvious examples are Laon and Leignitz, but Carlisle and Vienna are also connected.

_________________

Idylle in exile: the view over the laptop on a bad day
[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Jnyusa
Post subject:
Posted: Sat 11 Jun , 2005 12:47 am
One of the Bronte Sisters
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 5107
Joined: Tue 04 Jan , 2005 8:54 am
Location: In Situ
 
I read the first two chapters night before last, Alatar, but I've been down with the flu since then and have to wait till I fell a bit better to think clearly. Had to go into work regardless ... last day of them term.

Jn

_________________

"All things considered, I'd rather be in Philadelphia."
Epigraph on the tombstone of W.C. Fields.


Top
Profile Quote
Display: Sort by: Direction:
Post Reply   Page 1 of 4  [ 63 posts ]
Return to “Literary Rambles: There & Back Again...” | Jump to page 1 2 3 4 »
Jump to: