board77

The Last Homely Site on the Web

Tolkien and Irish Mythology - 3. The Courting of Emer

Post Reply   Page 2 of 4  [ 63 posts ]
Jump to page « 1 2 3 4 »
Author Message
Alatar
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 14 Jun , 2005 11:54 am
of Vinyamar
Offline
 
Posts: 8274
Joined: Mon 28 Feb , 2005 4:39 pm
Location: Ireland
Contact: ICQ
 
A couple of quick thoughts:

Fostering: This seems to be a common theme. Setanta is raised with the best tutors, raised to be a hero. There is no accidental "boy from nowhere" aspect to his upbringing. Much like Aragorn he is raised with the skills to help him achieve greateness. It seems odd, looking at it, that all of Tolkiens major heroes, whether tragic or triumphant, come from splintered family backgrounds. Aragorn was raised in Elronds house, surrounded by the wise. Feanor suffered from jealousy of his Half-Brothers and Step-Mother's love for his Father. Denethor, Boromir and Faramir all suffered for the loss of their Mother. Even Bilbo and Frodo had unusual families by Hobbit standards. It seems that in both real and invented Mythology, extraordinary people do not spring from ordinary stock. They are born with the blood of heroes and raised to be heroes, whether with or without their knowledge. Even Bilbo, it is suggested, would not have risen to his challenges were it not for his Took blood.

Given vs Earned Name: Cúchulainn was born and raised as Setanta. Aragorn was Estel and later became Elessar. Turin had many names. Even Beren renamed himself after his ordeals. A name holds power in both real and invented Mythology.

More when I think of it!

Alatar

_________________

[ img ]
These are my friends, see how they glisten...


Top
Profile Quote
Wilma
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 14 Jun , 2005 6:06 pm
Takoyaki is love
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 2994
Joined: Tue 22 Feb , 2005 12:55 pm
Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
 
Is it possible that we could have little family trees or something? Like the Silmarillion, I am confused with all the names. :scratch

_________________

Itoshiki Sensei from Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei. Avatar by: sparklessence

"There is no such thing as coincidence in this world, only hitsuzen." - Yuko Ichihara and Kimihiro Watanuki - xxxHolic

"I'm modest, I'll keep my knickers on and die!" - My sister Grace commenting on Bear Gryllis on an episode of Oprah :rofl:

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
IdylleSeethes
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 15 Jun , 2005 4:52 am
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 911
Joined: Fri 11 Mar , 2005 5:10 pm
Location: Bretesche
 
Wilma,

There are complications. Will you settle for a list of the main characters for reference?

Significant characters in Cuchulain

Ailell

King of Connaught. Husband of Maeve. Father of the Maine brothers and Findabair

Aoife (Aife)

Lover of Cuchlain. Mother of Cuchulain's son Conlaoch.

Briciu

Difficult and deceptive resident of Ulster

Cathbad

Druid

Conaire

King of Ireland from 109 BCE.

Conall

Red Branch Knight

Conchubar (Conchobhar Abhradhruadh)

King of Ireland from 8 BCE to 7 BCE. Son of Ness. Assumes throne in place of Fergus.

Conlaoch (Connla)

Son of Aoife and Cuchulain.

Cuchulain (Cuchulainn) (Setanta)

Son of Dechtire and Lug. Foster son of Sualtim. Champion of Ireland. Red Branch champion.

Dechtire (Dechterre)

Mother of Cuchulain by Lug. Wife of Sualtim

Emer

Daughter of Forgall. Wife of Cuchulain

Eochaid Feidlach (Eochaidh Feidhleach)

King of Ireland from 142 BCE to 130 BCE. Grandfather of Conaire. Father of Maeve.

Fand

Lover of Cuchulain. Wife of Manannan

Fergus

Suitor to Ness. Gives his throne to Conchubar. Tutor of Cuchulain. Red Branch champion

Laeg

Cuchulain's chariot driver.

Laegaire

Red Branch champion

Lug (Lugh)

Celtic triple god. Multi-talented.

Lugaid (LugHaidgh Sriabh nDearg)

King of Ireland from 34 BCE. King of Munster. Friend of Cuchulain. Husband of Cuchulain's lover Devorgill. Pupil of Cuchulain.

Maeve (Medb) (Maeb) (Mab) (Morgana)

Queen of Connaught. Wife of Ailell. Mother of the Maine brothers and Findabair.

Sometimes identified as the goddess Medb(Maeb) (Mab) (Morgana)

Ness

Mother of Conchubar

Fand

Lover of Cuchulain. Wife of Manannan

Scathatch

Female warrior goddess and instructor to Cuchulain. Mother of Uathach.

Sencha

A man of wisdom and advisor to Conchubar

Setanta (Cuchulain) (Cuchulainn)

Son of Dechtire and either Lug or Sualtim. His extraordinary power makes Lug more reasonable. There is also the issue of Sualtim not being appearing in the story until after Setanta's birth.

Sualtim (Sualtam)

Step-father of Cuchulain.

Uath

Giant who challenges Cuchulain

Editted

Last edited by IdylleSeethes on Wed 15 Jun , 2005 2:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

_________________

Idylle in exile: the view over the laptop on a bad day
[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Alatar
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 15 Jun , 2005 8:48 am
of Vinyamar
Offline
 
Posts: 8274
Joined: Mon 28 Feb , 2005 4:39 pm
Location: Ireland
Contact: ICQ
 
I was actually going to say that family trees were probably a bad idea as the important characters become obvious in time and that the others should be explored on a deeper reading. Initially, I would approach it the same way you approached your first reading of LotR. You don't necessarily get all the references or remember all the names initially, but after a while they fall into place.

Thanks for the above IS. I would recommend that people use it as a cheat sheet when they want, but not that they try to memorise it. Part of the fun is finding this out as you go along, discovering who is a real force and who is simply a minor character.

Alatar

_________________

[ img ]
These are my friends, see how they glisten...


Top
Profile Quote
Wilma
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 15 Jun , 2005 9:44 am
Takoyaki is love
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 2994
Joined: Tue 22 Feb , 2005 12:55 pm
Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
 
Thank You IS. Already it helps since I was really confused as to who is the father of Cuchulain. I was sort of understanding it until they say that his mother is married to some guy and that he is that guys soon when it seems the father is the guy who whisked the sister away. As you can see I get confused, prettty easily. :)

_________________

Itoshiki Sensei from Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei. Avatar by: sparklessence

"There is no such thing as coincidence in this world, only hitsuzen." - Yuko Ichihara and Kimihiro Watanuki - xxxHolic

"I'm modest, I'll keep my knickers on and die!" - My sister Grace commenting on Bear Gryllis on an episode of Oprah :rofl:

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
IdylleSeethes
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 15 Jun , 2005 2:14 pm
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 911
Joined: Fri 11 Mar , 2005 5:10 pm
Location: Bretesche
 
Alatar,

I agree it is best to use the list sparingly. The combination of unusual names, changing names, and multiple spellings is not normal for most people. I have tried to just state relationships, but it is difficult to avoid providing clues to later events.

_________________

Idylle in exile: the view over the laptop on a bad day
[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Wilma
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 15 Jun , 2005 3:16 pm
Takoyaki is love
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 2994
Joined: Tue 22 Feb , 2005 12:55 pm
Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
 
Trust me I will be just as surprised. :)

_________________

Itoshiki Sensei from Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei. Avatar by: sparklessence

"There is no such thing as coincidence in this world, only hitsuzen." - Yuko Ichihara and Kimihiro Watanuki - xxxHolic

"I'm modest, I'll keep my knickers on and die!" - My sister Grace commenting on Bear Gryllis on an episode of Oprah :rofl:

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Alatar
Post subject:
Posted: Fri 24 Jun , 2005 5:45 pm
of Vinyamar
Offline
 
Posts: 8274
Joined: Mon 28 Feb , 2005 4:39 pm
Location: Ireland
Contact: ICQ
 
Everyone ready to move on?

_________________

[ img ]
These are my friends, see how they glisten...


Top
Profile Quote
IdylleSeethes
Post subject:
Posted: Sun 26 Jun , 2005 3:08 am
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 911
Joined: Fri 11 Mar , 2005 5:10 pm
Location: Bretesche
 
Yes.

_________________

Idylle in exile: the view over the laptop on a bad day
[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Alatar
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 28 Jun , 2005 9:03 am
of Vinyamar
Offline
 
Posts: 8274
Joined: Mon 28 Feb , 2005 4:39 pm
Location: Ireland
Contact: ICQ
 
IS, I think I'll wait a couple of days in case some of the noobs want to join in!

Alatar

_________________

[ img ]
These are my friends, see how they glisten...


Top
Profile Quote
IdylleSeethes
Post subject:
Posted: Thu 30 Jun , 2005 5:38 am
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 911
Joined: Fri 11 Mar , 2005 5:10 pm
Location: Bretesche
 
I'm back from my forced respite.

_________________

Idylle in exile: the view over the laptop on a bad day
[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Alatar
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 06 Jul , 2005 3:43 pm
of Vinyamar
Offline
 
Posts: 8274
Joined: Mon 28 Feb , 2005 4:39 pm
Location: Ireland
Contact: ICQ
 
I'll be away for a couple of weeks so I hope IS will lead the discussion on Chapter 2!

Alatar

_________________

[ img ]
These are my friends, see how they glisten...


Top
Profile Quote
laureanna
Post subject:
Posted: Wed 06 Jul , 2005 8:22 pm
Triathlete
Offline
 
Posts: 2711
Joined: Wed 26 Jan , 2005 2:08 am
Location: beachcombing
 
Now you've got me interested. I'm reading Angela's Ashes (and highly recommend it). Cuchulan's name pops up quite often as the main character's favorite story.

_________________

Well, I'm back.


Top
Profile Quote
IdylleSeethes
Post subject:
Posted: Fri 08 Jul , 2005 5:47 am
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 911
Joined: Fri 11 Mar , 2005 5:10 pm
Location: Bretesche
 
II Boy Deeds of Cuchulain

1. Chapter Summary

Setana left his mother and step-father as a young lad and moved in with King Conchubar and was raised by the group as proposed by Cathbad when Setana was born.

Setana killed a hound that was a protector of a home. As compensation Setana became the protector of the home until a replacement was raised. Setana took the name Cuchulain, hound of Culain. Cathbad, the Druid, foretold that the name would be famous.

Cuchulain trained as a warrior. His first fight was in anger. He killed Fainnle and 3 sons of Nechtan. When he returned to Emain, Conchubar had 150 naked women greet him, to subdue his anger.

2. Notes

The numbers 3 and 150, frequently expressed as 3 * 50 appear frequently.

This is obviously a pre-Christian story.

3. Tolkien Connections

The "hidden" leader, deserving of his position because of his heritage, was used by Tolkien for the ranger Strider/Aragorn/Elessar. The name change as the character progresses was also used, although Tolkien provides more steps.

Tolkien has a literal hound hero who is most visible in the Lays of Beleriand. Huan was captain/lord of the dogs/wolves. He protects Beren and Luthien from Sauron, defeats Sauron and later dies in the quest for the Silmarils with Beren.

Huan spoke 3 times in his life. 3 shows up many times in Celtic stories, including Cuchulain.

Huan's true nature is uncertain. It is possible he was a Maia. This speculation is based on his ability to defeat Sauron, his inability to be enchanted (Sil 203 and LoB 236-237), that he was killed by Morgoth rather than some lesser creature, foreknowledge of events, and other circumstantial evidence. Cuchulain doesn't seem to be a god, but the son of a god (Lug), which we can assume is the origin of his extraordinary abilities.

4. Arthurian Connections

Merlin, a Druid like Cathbad, hides Arthur with a foster father until he comes of age. Arthur's name doesn't change, but his identity is obscure until he pulls the sword from the stone.

_________________

Idylle in exile: the view over the laptop on a bad day
[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Alatar
Post subject:
Posted: Sat 23 Jul , 2005 8:19 pm
of Vinyamar
Offline
 
Posts: 8274
Joined: Mon 28 Feb , 2005 4:39 pm
Location: Ireland
Contact: ICQ
 
Thanks IS, I'll try to get back to this sometime this week! A lot to catch up on here.

_________________

[ img ]
These are my friends, see how they glisten...


Top
Profile Quote
Alatar
Post subject:
Posted: Thu 28 Jul , 2005 2:08 pm
of Vinyamar
Offline
 
Posts: 8274
Joined: Mon 28 Feb , 2005 4:39 pm
Location: Ireland
Contact: ICQ
 
This is a much longer chapter and there's a lot in it of note. Foremost we see the arrogance of Setanta and his unswerving faith in his own abilities. When he arrives at Emain Macha he tackles 150 of the finest boy warriors in a game of hurling (incidentally the same number of naked women that are sent to cool his anger at the end of the chapter) and bests them. But it is not enough that he is recognised and put under their protection, he continues to fight them until they are placed under his protection and acknowledge him as their equal or indeed their superior. There is also a class system evident. They have disdain for him because they think him to be only the boy of some "common fighting man". His noble birth is a large factor in their acceptance of him.

The tale of how Setanta became Cuchulain is one of the most famous in Irish legend. There are various different versions to the tale, but all agree that he set out alone after a Hurling match to follow on the the feast at the house of Chulainn and that he found the hall already shut and the great hound released. In most tales he had nothing to defend himself with except his hurley and sliotar (hurling ball). In this version of the tale the sliotar is made of silver but in many versions it is a simple leather sliotar and he kills the hound by driving the sliotar into the throut of the hound, choking it. The version here is more dramatic but sticks to the basic essentials that Setanta as a child defended himself against a great hound with only a Hurley and Sliotar. Having killed the hound, Setanta set himself in service to the Chieftan Chulainn until such time as a whelp of the breed would be raised to replace him. He recieved his name in this way, "The Hound of Chulainn" or "Cú Chulainn". This was his name ever after, and also earned him the title "The Hound of Ulster" as the champion of Ulster in later days.

For background, Ulster is one of the four provinces of Ireland. Ulster comprises the Northern counties of Antrim, Armagh, Cavan, Donegal, Down, Fermanagh, Londonderry (or Derry), Monaghan and Tyrone. Only 6 of the counties of Ulster now remain under English rule. The remainder are part of the Irish Republic. Of course at the time of the stories writing all of Ireland was under English rule and at the time the stories are set there was no English rule. At the time, Ireland was under the rule of Chieftans nominally answerable to the Kings who were little more than chieftains themselves. It was not until the time of Brian Boru that Ireland was united under a single king. In this respect Brian Boru is like an Irish King Arthur, but he does not enter into this story.

Finding Tolkien parallels in this chapter is difficult and in some ways pointless because the style is so different to Tolkiens. What we do have is one notable juxtaposition of elements in the tales of Huan and Cuchulain. Where Huan could only die after meeting the greatest wolf ever to live, similarly Cuchulains first two triumphs were against foes who had similar prophecies applied to them. For Foill "neither point of spear or edge of sword can harm him" and for Tuachel "if he is not killed by the first stroke, or the first cast, or the first thrust, he cannot be killed at all". In both cases Cuchulainn defeats them in accordance with the prophecies. Also, Setanta took arms on the day he did because of a prophecy that told of the man who took arms on that day that "his name will be greater than any other name in Ireland. But his span of life will be short". There is a great weight given to prophecy both in Irish Mythology and in Tolkiens Mythology.

Alatar

_________________

[ img ]
These are my friends, see how they glisten...


Top
Profile Quote
IdylleSeethes
Post subject:
Posted: Sat 30 Jul , 2005 4:06 am
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 911
Joined: Fri 11 Mar , 2005 5:10 pm
Location: Bretesche
 
Alatar and I have both mentioned Huan. Does anyone have any thoughts on his origin?

_________________

Idylle in exile: the view over the laptop on a bad day
[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Jnyusa
Post subject:
Posted: Thu 04 Aug , 2005 4:05 am
One of the Bronte Sisters
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 5107
Joined: Tue 04 Jan , 2005 8:54 am
Location: In Situ
 
This is not about Huan in particular, Idylle, but about hounds in general as they appear in legend. The giant hound, the hound from hell, seems to enjoy broad if infrequent appearance in a variety of genres.

It strikes me that the origin of the hellhound cannot be experiential, because a farming society's experience of fearsome dogs would not be solitary hounds but rather wolf packs. Dogs are tribal, orchestral, and therein lies the fear of their song and the threat of their attack.

So I entertain the idea that the hellhound is truly a metaphorical creature.
Why the shape of a dog would be chosen for this metaphor also strikes me as an interesting question. (Cujo, yes?) Or maybe the dog is seen as a potent symbol because we do not expect attack from a dog once it has been domesticated. The idea of a dog that kills people has an element of surprise and betrayal to it ...

The hound that Cuchulain is named after is not the hound that hunts the fox but a hound trained to kill human interlopers, a hound that Cuchulain must defeat with his own hand. Not just a dog, in other words. It's interesting.

The other element I find interesting is the repetition of the number 150 which Alatar pointed out. Numbers are always interesting when they appear in legends. Stories are often repeated so that the people will remember certain things, so I think it is legitimate to ask why this number in particular is important. Does anyone know why 150 would have had significance to that culture?

Jn

_________________

"All things considered, I'd rather be in Philadelphia."
Epigraph on the tombstone of W.C. Fields.


Top
Profile Quote
IdylleSeethes
Post subject:
Posted: Thu 04 Aug , 2005 7:54 am
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 911
Joined: Fri 11 Mar , 2005 5:10 pm
Location: Bretesche
 
Jnyusa,

Thanks for the input. I agree being attacked by a dog does seem like betrayal. It also says something about our distrust of strangers since we train dogs to attack them.

I'm not sure about the significance of 150. It is often expressed as 3 X 50. Since 3 is itself important it may be that 50 has some meaning and that the combination of the two have special power. I haven't noticed 50 or 150 as being important in English, Welsh, or French legends

_________________

Idylle in exile: the view over the laptop on a bad day
[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
truehobbit
Post subject:
Posted: Sat 06 Aug , 2005 8:03 pm
WYSIWYG
Offline
 
Posts: 3228
Joined: Wed 27 Oct , 2004 6:37 pm
Location: wherever
 
Hi Alatar - glad to see your project is still striving! :)
Jny wrote:
Or maybe the dog is seen as a potent symbol because we do not expect attack from a dog once it has been domesticated. The idea of a dog that kills people has an element of surprise and betrayal to it ...
I think unless you are the owner of the dog, you must expect an attack.
I guess that makes dogs a weird mix of loyal servant and dangerous weapon. I don't think it's so much a betrayal, unless the dog turn upon its owner.
I think this is just the "young hero overcomes most dangerous animal around"-topos - in a place like Ireland dogs are certainly among the animals most dangerous to man.
(Not sure how much wolf packs, wild boars were around at the time the myth was created.)

_________________

From our key principles:

We listen to one another, make good-faith efforts to understand one another, and we treat one another respectfully at all times.


Top
Profile Quote
Display: Sort by: Direction:
Post Reply   Page 2 of 4  [ 63 posts ]
Return to “Literary Rambles: There & Back Again...” | Jump to page « 1 2 3 4 »
Jump to: