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Tolkien and Irish Mythology - 3. The Courting of Emer

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IdylleSeethes
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Posted: Sun 07 Aug , 2005 5:15 am
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th,

I've never been attacked by a dog and I don't think I know anyone who has been. I have owned, bred, and raised large dogs, mostly german shepherds, without a serious incident. I'm around dogs frequently. I just petted one 10 minutes ago and I spent yesterday evening with 2 dobermans. I don't think my opinion is based on inexperience.

Attacking humans is unexpected behavior for domesticated animals in general and when it happens in the case of dogs it is also unexpected and usually is limited to dogs who have been trained to attack, which I think makes it an unnatural behavior. The vast majority of dogs aren't trained as attack dogs, although we rely heavily on their territorial instincts to create a lot of noise. So, actually being attacked by one seems like betrayal to me. In this country it is deemed unacceptable behavior and dogs that attack humans are frequently destroyed on the basis that they can't be trusted, which ties back to the idea of betrayal.

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Jnyusa
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I found two cool reference pages on google - one for boars and their symbolism in early Celtic stuff, and the other for hounds and wolves in Germanic myth. The latter mentions Tolkien, and also refers to the "white eared hounds of Celtic myth" but without any elaboration or links. Info anyone?

boars


hounds

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IdylleSeethes
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The latter site is an odd but interesting collection of articles. I hadn't realized the wargs had such an ancient heritage, although I should have expected it.

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Jnyusa
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Yes, it's interesting, isn't it? I was trying to answer the question that Hobby raised as to whether there were boars in Ireland - I knew they were in England, but not everything can cross the sea, you know. One site led to another, as usual.

I still think the choice of 'dog' is perplexing in all its manifestations ... starting with Cerberus as the prototype. I do not accept the author's explanation that this is an obvious choice because dogs dig up and eat corpses. Dogs are not typically carrion eaters. It would be one thing for a pack to hunt and eat a human - though even that is uncommon because wild dogs/wolves do not typically prey on humans - none of the large predators do - but it would take a very unusual set of circumstances to cause a single dog to dig up and consume a corpse. Starvation basically, I guess.

It makes more sense to me that the underworld has a watchdog simply because humans do routinely use dogs for that purpose - to guard the gate. And a mythical place would have a fabulous beast.

Perseus has to slay Cerberus if memory serves. Perhaps Cuchulain is a copycat killer? The Irishification of the Greek myth? - but without the maiden in distress ... or perhaps the maiden comes later ... in any event the hero is not motivated by a woman.

Which leads by sloppy lateral thinking to that French expression, "cherchez la femme." John Fowles drew a sharp distinction between cultures sprung from Greek roots and those sprung from Roman roots - the former including the French. The centrality of love-inspired heroes to so many plots probably is a cultural preference. But I have always considered the Celtic culture to have been parented by Greek culture - the economic ties are very, very old. And the Celts did nothing but fight with the Romans until they were finally overthrown in their own land.

Cuchulain strikes me as the kind of hero that would come out of Sparta.

Jn

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IdylleSeethes
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Posted: Sun 07 Aug , 2005 11:20 pm
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This is shaky ground for me, but I have a memory of a few indirect Irish/Greek connections.

Ireland was settled by Celts who reached it from the areas around Greece, probably Scythia, through Spain. This was during the period the Greeks were a major influence in the Mediterranean and before the Romans. The Irish Celts maintained their ties with Greeks. Their interaction with the Romans was infrequent and strained. The youthful years in St Patrick's story are indicative. The Irish claim to have not been conquered by the Romans, but the adult St. Patrick could be the basis for a claim that Roman Christianity overcame pagan/Celtic/Druidic Ireland as the Empire itself was waning in the 5th century. This bit of known Irish history actually connects better with the contemporary transition from Druidic to Christian represented in Arthurian mythology but oddly assigned to England and Wales which would have been Christian far earlier.

The important aspect of that is the connections between Celtic gods and goddesses to the continent is more likely to be through the Greeks than the Romans.

Ireland was invaded by the Milesians, supposedly around 1000BCE. It could have been anytime between 300 and 3000. The Milesians are descendants of Milesius, a Spanish Celt. I believe they are thought to have migrated from Scythia, on the fringes of Greek influence. There has been conjecture that the actual opponents of the Greeks at Troy were Celts.

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Alatar
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Posted: Mon 08 Aug , 2005 9:40 am
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It is certainly claimed here that the Romans never conquered Ireland. Not because they could not, but simply because they never bothered. There was very little here worth conquering to be honest! Norman architecture is the only evidence of foreign occupation in Ireland (naturally excepting English occupation). The popular opinion here is that although the Normans conquered Ireland they were also conquered in turn and were subsumed into the country. The phrase "more Irish then the Irish themselves" was coined for the Normans.

Unfortunately this absorbtion works both ways. The coming of Christianity destroyed much of our history. The Christian missionaries incorporated all of the druid holidays and feasts into the Christian Calendar even going so far as to create the Celtic Cross which combines the Christian Cross with elements of the druid faith like the Ring symbol and the serpent. Many Irish myths were distorted with Christian influences so that the original versions are no longer remembered. Irish heroes were suddenly tied in with Christian events, like Conall Cearnach at the Crucifiction, or the Children of Lír being freed from their Swan shapes by the blessing of a monk. Who knows what we lost in this insidious process. Again, the reference to St. Patrick "driving the snakes from Ireland" is thought to refer to his systematic eradication of the druid faith. Fortunately much is still remembered, unlike England where their mythology (if it ever existed) is lost forever.

Actually there's an amusing anectode about why the Romans never came to Ireland. Apparently a scout arrived by ship to determine whether Ireland was suitable for invasion. When he arrived the villages were empty and he assumed that the villagers had fled at the sight of the Roman ship. Proud of his nations ability to strike fear into the locals he pushed inland until he came upon a strange sight. There was a crowd gathered and bloodcurdling yells filled the air. He pushed forward and saw bodies lying broken in pools of blood and fierce skirmishes being cheered by the onlookers. He pulled a woman aside and asked her, "What great battle is this?" She looked at him scornfully. "Battle is it? Sure this is only a game of Hurling."

The scout advised the Roman legions to stop at England :)

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Tue 09 Aug , 2005 3:45 pm
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Alatar, thank you :oops: yes the Irish Celts were overthrown by the Roman culture, not by the Roman army.

I have, in one Irish history book, a poem that Irish children were forced to recite to learn the Roman Calendar (and forget their own, which has never been completel resurrected, btw). I'm pretty sure, though, that it dates to before the Norman Conquest, so yes, brought by missionaries rather than by armies.

I personally consider the conjoining of Roman culture and Christianity to have been an historical disaster. Someone, I think it was Paul Theroux, asked the interesting question of how differently Christianity might have evolved if it had been adopted by Marcus Aurelius instead of Constantine.

Jn

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Alatar
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Posted: Tue 06 Sep , 2005 12:55 pm
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Continuing (after a short abscence :whistle: ) with chapter 3...

The Courting of Emer

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IdylleSeethes
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Posted: Tue 06 Sep , 2005 11:09 pm
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The Aoife-Cuchulain relationship is roughly of the Eowyn-Aragorn pattern.

Elrond and Aragorn had a strained relationship because of Arwen, but I think they had a better relationship than Cuchulain and Forgall.

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Dindraug
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Posted: Wed 07 Sep , 2005 12:54 pm
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Jnyusa wrote:
But I have always considered the Celtic culture to have been parented by Greek culture - the economic ties are very, very old. And the Celts did nothing but fight with the Romans until they were finally overthrown in their own land.
No, common minconception, but the people we now called Celtic (Irish, Welsh, Breton, Scot etc) are all the last vesiges of the Indo-European culture which also gave us Mycean Greek, Vedic Indian, Eretreia (and therfore Roman), Troy, Pre Germanic Scandinavia and Germany, Britains, Basques (sort of) etc etc etc.

Big major super culture from the second and third millenia BCE, sort of took over when cutures like the Akean Hellianic, Henge building Western Atlantic culture etc fell in a mass climatic change around 1050BCE (yep, my BA dissertaition subject was based around this).

The roote myths are shared if old enough, or merged, or swaped. Cerebus as a figure became the guardian of the rainbow bridge, and has links found in the Veda's.

Celt itself means Hero, and Celtic was given to the cultures where the hero himself became the major driving force. There are other links, mostly religious (and wrongly asumed to be Druidic, which itself first appears as a religion in the second century BCE!).

As for the destruction of Celtic culture, well the celts themselves destroyed it regually, and overlaid it with the new cultural ideal ;) . The urban Roman and Christian did much damage, but if you read the stories of the invasion history of Ireland, you see it has happened time and time again. Who now remembered the Formari except as dull witted giants? And who remembers Crom Cruach as a King rather than a worm or ghost?

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Wed 07 Sep , 2005 2:15 pm
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Din, Fabulous! Please don't run away from this thread - I have many questions to ask you about this but my computer is all kaflooey right now, sometimes it works, sometimes it just won't turn on. I've got to buy a new one and it's going to take me about a week before I can post normally again.

Jn

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Dindraug
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Posted: Thu 08 Sep , 2005 12:02 pm
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I won't run away ;) Feel free to prod and ask.

I do agree with what Alatar has said, Celtic myth/legend and history is a fairly mixed bag and much is lost and conjecture, like English myth or British myth.


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Alatar
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Posted: Mon 03 Oct , 2005 12:11 pm
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Ok, I'm finished Rangering and I'm ready to continue with this! Expect an update soon. :)

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Dindraug
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Posted: Mon 03 Oct , 2005 12:57 pm
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About time ;)

So, is there a link between the cauldron in Celtic myth, and Tolkien?


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Posted: Mon 03 Oct , 2005 4:01 pm
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There's a lot in this chapter and to be honest I've only been able to skim it because so much is referenced that has no bearing on the story. What comes across strongly is the strength and power of women in the mythology. At first glance this may not appear so, when traits like needlework and chastity are held up as 2 of the 6 virtues of a woman. Looking further though, there is no question that Cuchulainn sees Emer as an equal, and they debate in riddles as much to test each other's mettle as to disguise their speech from her handmaidens. Like Arwen and Luthien, Emer's love for Cúchulainn is against her fathers wishes and she behaves in some ways like each of Tolkiens counterparts. Like Arwen, she does not openly defy her father, but like Luthien she conspires with her lover for his victory. The Luthien parallel becomes more obvious later as, like Thingol, Emer's father sends Cúchulainn on a quest that he hopes will claim his life. Like Beren, Cúchulainns quest takes him far from home into great danger but he survives betrayal through the help of friends unlooked for. In his absence Emer is approached with an offer of marriage, but she keeps her word to Cúchulainn and appeals to the honour and integrity of Lugaid not to take her for marriage when her love is given to another. Likewise, Cúchulainn has offers of love and marriage on his quest but remains true to Emer.

On the empowerment of women, Cúchulainn receives his training as a great warrior at the hands of a woman and is nearly bested by Aoife, also a woman. Bearing in mind that Cúchulainn is frequently shown to be stronger than a hundred men, this is no mean feat. True, Aoife is described as a Sorceress, but there is no indication that she used trickery or enchantment in her battle with him. She shatters his spear and breaks his sword. In fact Cúchulainn only manages to defeat her by trickery himself, distracting her with that she held most dear. We'll hear more about Aoife later.

One more interesting parallel, particularly for IS I would think. The Red Branch Knights and the Knights of the Round Table seem to have a lot in common, but with very different slants. In Arthurian myths, the Round Table is a place where all differences are set aside, and none may fight there (I think no weapons were allowed?). The Red Branch Knights have something similar, except that theirs is enforced by all other knights and there is an assortment of weapons at hand to ensure the peace is kept. Also, the importance on ones name and honour is here in different ways. Both will fight to the death over an insult.

I look forward to more indepth thoughts from the scholars!

Over to you gentlemen!

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IdylleSeethes
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Posted: Mon 24 Oct , 2005 2:07 am
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Tolkien

Aragorn and Elrond didn't get along that well, but…

You can see the progenitor of Eowyn as a female warrior falling in love with the hero she loses.

Arthurian

The Red Branch Knights (RBK) are similar in some ways to the Knights of the Round Table (KORT). The KORT seem to inherit from both the RBK and the Fianna. Starting with dissimilarities, the Fianna were infantry, the RBK rode chariots, and the KORT were cavalry. The RBK don't seem as cohesive. The Fianna and the KORT share the concept of an elite group following a code of conduct. The Fianna had to agree to the 4 geasas, which were rules of virtuous conduct, which seems similar to the KORT following the code of chivalry. The RBK were also an elite group, but don't seem to be governed by a code. The Fianna are a part of the Ossianic Cycle of stories written by Cormac Around 250 CE, which is disinct from the Ulster Cycle.

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Mon 24 Oct , 2005 3:16 am
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Idylle! sorry to go all off topic in this great thread, but I've been wondering what happened to you. I'm moving files from the old dead computer to the new live computer and haven't got access to my address book yet so I couldn't send you an email.

Could you PM me with your email address? Thanks!

Jn

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Quote:
Idylle! sorry to go all off topic in this great thread, but I've been wondering what happened to you.
Me too! I'm happy to see you here. (Sorry to interrupt :oops: )


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Eruname
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Apologies to Alatar, but I too would like to say "Hi and good to see you" to Idylle. :)

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IdylleSeethes
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Thanks to Alatar for reminding me where I should be, and to everyone else for being so kind. I should be around more after Nov 1.

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