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BearyFaery
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Posted: Thu 14 Jul , 2005 1:43 am
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Mirror mirror with the Borgias????



Talk about my favourite papal family EVER.

I read Wicked a few years ago and adored it. I suggested it to a teacher of mine and we'd sit around discussing good and evil and then reading other things as well. Jekyll and Hyde is f course amazing, but the musical, to me, puts it in even starker perspective. I need to get my copy of wicked back from a friend of mine though. :)

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MaidenOfTheShieldarm
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Posted: Thu 14 Jul , 2005 7:30 pm
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BearyFaery wrote:
Mirror mirror with the Borgias????



Talk about my favourite papal family EVER.
So you're a Borgia fan? What'd you think of Mirror Mirror, then? And how accurate do you think Maguire was?
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I need to get my copy of wicked back from a friend of mine though. :)
Ditto. But I don't think that's going to happen, so I guess I'll have to be on a look out for a new one.

OT, but you really liked Jekyl and Hyde? I've been curious about that, though I was skeptical. I'll have to check it out this year. :) (It is still playing, right? )

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BearyFaery
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Posted: Fri 15 Jul , 2005 1:45 am
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I have no earthly idea, I've never actually seen it live. The movie with.. ahh what's his name.. hunky actor.. grr.. is actually pretty good. I've seen people perform confrontation before and just take my breath away. That song is considered one of the hardest things for an actor in musical theatre to do, because you go from a baritone to a growling bass about 15 times in one song, that isn't really that long. It's extremely tiring on the actor, so it's always neat to see.

I haven't read Mirror Mirror yet, but I will, then read up on the borgias again. I'm about wow.. 4 years rusty on my borgia knowledge. BUT! I have a barnes and noble gift card I lost during christmas, and have now found, so that might just be my next purchase :)

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MaidenOfTheShieldarm
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Posted: Fri 15 Jul , 2005 1:51 am
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BearyFaery wrote:
I have no earthly idea, I've never actually seen it live. The movie with.. ahh what's his name.. hunky actor.. grr.. is actually pretty good. I've seen people perform confrontation before and just take my breath away. That song is considered one of the hardest things for an actor in musical theatre to do, because you go from a baritone to a growling bass about 15 times in one song, that isn't really that long. It's extremely tiring on the actor, so it's always neat to see.
Sounds interesting. I quite liked the book, so I'll have to go see it. That does sound difficult. Which must make it realy, really cool.
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I haven't read Mirror Mirror yet, but I will, then read up on the borgias again. I'm about wow.. 4 years rusty on my borgia knowledge. BUT! I have a barnes and noble gift card I lost during christmas, and have now found, so that might just be my next purchase :)
Ahh, it sounded like you had read it. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts. The Borgias aren't portrayed in the kindest of lights, but it's certainly interesting. Since you liked Wicked, I'd be suprised if you didn't enjoy this one as well.

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BearyFaery
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Posted: Fri 15 Jul , 2005 11:06 pm
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I actually went a bought the book today. Plunging myself back into the philisophical sartoonish world of fairy tales. :) I also found a Lucrezia Borgia book that looked fascinating, a full biography on everything from her sex to her power to rule. *tingles* I'm going to read Mirror, Mirror, and then the bio. Should be fun. Hope I finish it before I move back though.

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BearyFaery
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Posted: Fri 29 Jul , 2005 1:44 am
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Read Mirror Mirror and finished it actually a week or so ago.. took me a little longer than I thought it would.. but I did put it down for Harry Potter.. but anyway..

Yeah, weird book.. It doesn't really seem to end. I found a hint to wear Macguire pulled t he Borgias into his story though.. on her trip to Ferrera to meet her third husband, Alfonso Este, she made several stops in cities Cesare had thrust himself upon, uprooting rulers and etc etc.. but in one city (I can't remember the name.. this is all off the cuff right now) she was presented with a small statue or painting or some work of art that depicted her holding out an apple of wisdom.. formal name started with an H and had lots and lots of letters after it, and like said, off the cuff. I've never done really intensive study into Lucrezia's life, so this is quite fun for me, even if the biography I'm reading is a little name flooded.. but hey, mroe to come as I continue my journey.

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Alatar
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Posted: Fri 29 Jul , 2005 9:26 am
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BearyFaery wrote:
I have no earthly idea, I've never actually seen it live. The movie with.. ahh what's his name.. hunky actor.. grr.. is actually pretty good. I've seen people perform confrontation before and just take my breath away. That song is considered one of the hardest things for an actor in musical theatre to do, because you go from a baritone to a growling bass about 15 times in one song, that isn't really that long. It's extremely tiring on the actor, so it's always neat to see.
The DVD you're refering to is a live recording of the show with David Hasslehof in the lead role. Unfortunately, he's not really able for it. He manages, but he does not shine. That role needs a consummate performer and Hasslehof just isn't in that league. The best recording of this is the Black and White Double CD with Anthony Warlowe. "Lost in the Darkness" simply isn't a patch on "I Need to Know".

To return to topic, I find I prefer the stage version of Wicked to the Book. It's much more clever in tying together the threads than the book is. Full credit to Gregory Maguire for the concept but I think he was surpassed in the execution by Stephen Schwartz.

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TheMary
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Posted: Sat 30 Jul , 2005 8:53 pm
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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I see what you are saying Alatar about the play being clever and tying things together better, but I think they kind of ruined the darkness of the book to make the play family oriented. Hence *SPOILER* leaving out Elphie's illegitamate son, Sarima, and the affair between Elphie and Fieyero.

Maybe I didn't like Mirror Mirror because I don't know the history behind the Borgia family. But I'm pretty sure it's because of the Snow White factor. :)

You have to at least give David Hasselhoff props for Night Rider :D

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Posted: Sat 30 Jul , 2005 10:15 pm
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I will never hear a word said against Michael Knight and the Knight Industries Two Thousand. Everything else however...

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TheMary
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Posted: Sat 30 Jul , 2005 10:30 pm
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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Well if you ever need someone as an opening gig whilest you tear down a great divider say a "Berlin Wall" he's your man...and he has the cool duds to prove it.

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MaidenOfTheShieldarm
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Posted: Sat 20 Aug , 2005 4:36 am
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Alatar wrote:
To return to topic, I find I prefer the stage version of Wicked to the Book. It's much more clever in tying together the threads than the book is. Full credit to Gregory Maguire for the concept but I think he was surpassed in the execution by Stephen Schwartz.
Galinda and Elphaba's relationship was far, far better executed in the show. However, there are two things in the show that I cannot stand, and those are the Fiyero/Elphaba/Galinda triangle and the ending. I *hate* the ending of the show. The ending of the book is much better, much more chilling, and more lingering. I prefer the darkness of the book, as well, but it didn't bother me that the show was lighter. It is Broadway, after all. ;) (Besides, Defying Gravity is one of my favourite songs ever.)

BearyFaery, Mirror Mirror is quite bizarre, eh? You're right, it didn't seem to end. Interesting bit about Lucrezia Borgia. I'd be interested to find out more about her. I'll have to read MM again, as well. Need to digest.

Wicked was making the rounds of my family this year, so I've been thinking about it a lot. The questions that cross my mind are: Who is Yackle?; What's the deal with the Time Dragon Clock and dwarf?; Is Elphaba the protaginist of Wicked?

There were other things, too. I'll come back later when I'm more awake and post some coherent thoughts.

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Jude
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Posted: Thu 08 Sep , 2005 2:02 pm
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So my copy finally came in, and I finished it now.

It was an excellent read. One thing I did find jarring, however, was the disjointedness between the different periods of Elphaba's life (several years passing between chapters).

I haven't seen the musical yet - do I gather correctly from the discussion here that she survives?

I knew in advance that she wouldn't survive the encounter with Dorothy, having read The Wizard of Oz. But even still, I found the ending quite dark.

Particularly chilling was the scene where Elphaba confesses to the "murder" of Madame Morrible, and the dinner guests merely conduct a Manwe-like discussion on the nature of evil.

The musical is coming to Toronto in late 2006. I hope I can see it. But a quick look at the website shows prices as high as $260! :help:

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MaidenOfTheShieldarm
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Posted: Thu 08 Sep , 2005 5:12 pm
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Jude wrote:
So my copy finally came in, and I finished it now.
Yay!
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One thing I did find jarring, however, was the disjointedness between the different periods of Elphaba's life (several years passing between chapters).
Agreed.

SPOILERS

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I haven't seen the musical yet - do I gather correctly from the discussion here that she survives?
Yes. She essentially fakes her own death. I was not pleased. :x
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I knew in advance that she wouldn't survive the encounter with Dorothy, having read The Wizard of Oz. But even still, I found the ending quite dark.
Ditto. However, I loved the ending. The last three lines were just brilliant. Definitely one of my favourite book endings ever. I wish they had used it in the show.
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Particularly chilling was the scene where Elphaba confesses to the "murder" of Madame Morrible, and the dinner guests merely conduct a Manwe-like discussion on the nature of evil.
I love that scene. Dark, yes, and morbid, but so interesting.
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The musical is coming to Toronto in late 2006. I hope I can see it. But a quick look at the website shows prices as high as $260! :help:
I hope you get to go! You should be able to get cheaper tickets. :) You could come to NYC and get front row seats in the raffle for $28. :D

Have you heard the "original cast recording" as it's called of the show?

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MaidenOfTheShieldarm
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Posted: Sat 15 Oct , 2005 8:57 pm
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Okay, so no one actually posts in this thread anymore, but I'm going to post anyway. I went to hear Gregory Maguire read from Son of a Witch, the sequel to Wicked. No one will probably read it anyone, but here it is anyway.

So.

Today, I went to hear Gregory Maguire read from Wicked and Son of a Witch and it was teh awesome. I was one of the first three people there, and I sat front and centre. I wore one of my Wicked shirts, figuring it was appropriate. The three of us who were there first hung out a bit and talked until it all started. I also read a bit of The Tempest, because I have to finish in on Tuesday and I'm only just done with Act II.

Gregory Maguire is kinda short, going bald, wears jeans and a flannel shirt, very down to earth kinda guy. Also, very funny. He first read a passage from Wicked, where she and Liir are talking about how Dorothy is supposed to come and kill her and Liir asks the witch what she would ask the Wizard for. He then read a bit from SoaW in which Dorothy convinces Liir to go see the wizard with her, and a bit later on when Liir first flies. He's very animate when he reads. He tends to switch directions when doing dialogue so it looks as though he's each character, I guess.

Afterward, he answered questions from the audience, all of which were very interesting.
-Liir is pronounced Leer, and named after King Lear.
-Yackle's name was chosen because it sounds like Jackal. She is supposed to represent the fact that Evil really doesn't have any determinate origins.
-He broke the book off where he did not to leave from for another sequel but because it left a lot of loose ends. He said that made the Witch's death more poignant. Ditto for SoaW, because he wanted to leave Liir with possibilities and hope, but nothing definite.
-He wrote a sequel because of what I said above, but also because of the photos of Abu Gharaib. He said that since he couldn't rescue that man, he had to rescue the people who were suffering in his book. He's not planning on writing a third book, but if one jumps up and down in neon green long johns screaming WRITE ME!!!!!! he will.
-He loves the theatre version and is happy with how it came out. Despite the major plot changes, he feels that it still captures the essence of the story. He doesn't so much mind that Elphaba doesn't die in the show because she still never sees Galinda again, and thus essentially dies.
-He also loves theatre in general and says "If I were younger, I'd buy a pair of fuschia hot pants, move to New York, and become a theatre boy." That's a direct quote.
-That's all I can remember right now.

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Posted: Sun 16 Oct , 2005 12:04 am
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I'm reading Mossy :)

Interesting stuff, And like I said before I prefer the show's ending.

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Jude
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Posted: Sun 16 Oct , 2005 1:10 am
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Hey, I'm reading too! In fact, I've been planning to post in here for a while because I've had further thoughts about the book.

I believe the plot suffers a bit from having to conform to that of The Wizard of Oz. For example, I thought the final estrangement between Elphaba and Glinda forced and unbelievable. But they were enemies in the Wizard of Oz, so they had to be enemies by the end of Wicked. I think Maguire could have taken more time to make a more believable reason for them to part company.

I believe the book would have benefitted from a good editor - someone who would have the experience and guts to tell the author "I'm sending this section back because it needs to be rewritten. Here's why..."

Without having seen it yet, I can well believe that the musical might have improved on some of the weak points in the book. Since Alatar has twice said he prefers the musical ending, that makes me all the more determined to see it when it comes to Toronto in November 2006, if I can possibly afford it. Perhaps the musical supplies the editing that the book needs?

Don't get me wrong - despite all its faults, I thoroughly enjoyed the book and intend to read more of his stuff! :)

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MaidenOfTheShieldarm
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Posted: Sun 16 Oct , 2005 1:27 am
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Alatar wrote:
I'm reading Mossy :)
Yay! It's always a relief to hear I'm not just talking to myself. ;)

Hearing Maguire's point of view, I can reconcile myself, perhaps even to the point of appreciating it, to the show's ending much more than before. However, I love the last three lines of the book so much that I don't think it will ever quite have the same resonance for me.

Edit, having read Jude's post: Yeah, the book was forced at some points. It was Maguire's first book, though. I wonder if he would have done it differently now. One of the few things about the show that I prefered to the book was Elphaba and Galinda's relationship. It just feels more . . . genuine, more complete.

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Silwen
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Posted: Tue 18 Oct , 2005 11:50 am
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I've been reading the posts here in this thread for some time now but only recently got to read Wicked myself. I bought it because many people were talking about it and really loved it, some of them are really obsessed with it. I wasn't sure what to expect, but I was prepared after what I had heard from others and read here.

I was genuinely looking forward to the book, but it disappointed me greatly. Not because the story was lame (which it was, as I have come to think of it by now, at least given the way it was written), but because the writer's skills aren't well developed in that book. As smor said, it was his first book, but that is no true excuse for a badly written novel, and as Jude said, a strict editor would have done the book good.

Maguire doesn't manage to create tension, the episodes lack detail to make them truly interesting, and there are far too many loose ends (admittedly one is fine, the question of good and evil to which there can be no real answer) and that is annoying. You should not write a book that gets you absolutely nowhere. There were a number of inconsistencies in this fictional world as well. The most obvious to me was the use of the word grafitti, a rather modern word that appears out of place in the world of Wicked where even the concept of a telescope is new as we see later (and, strangely, they have microscopes but no telescopes too).

A friend told me that Maguire wanted to write a book that cannot be place din an existing category. I suppose that is the way she has explained it to herself and it was not really his intention. The inability to place him in any category seems to come from his inability to decide what exatcly it is he needs to do to get his points across in fiction.

I was surprised to find the book is already 10 years old and has never been trasnlated into German. I thought that was due to the fact that The Wizard of Oz is not as well known in Germany as in the States. However, by now I wonder whether publishers have simply refused to publish it here because they thought it is not good?

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MaidenOfTheShieldarm
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Posted: Tue 18 Oct , 2005 2:42 pm
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Silwen wrote:
Not because the story was lame (which it was, as I have come to think of it by now, at least given the way it was written)
What didn't you like about the story? I've heard many criticisms of Wicked, but never that one.
Quote:
but because the writer's skills aren't well developed in that book. As smor said, it was his first book, but that is no true excuse for a badly written novel, and as Jude said, a strict editor would have done the book good.
This is true. It is not the best written book. For me, it's the characters that make it. Elphaba is one of the few female characters that I have ever read that I both found believable and liked.
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there are far too many loose ends (admittedly one is fine, the question of good and evil to which there can be no real answer) and that is annoying. You should not write a book that gets you absolutely nowhere.
Maguire addressed this when I saw him read. He said that he left all of those loose ends on purpose. If everything got tied up, Elphaba's death would, in some ways, lose it's poignancy. Because she never got to finish and because everything just got broken off with no resolution, it makes it more tragic. That, he said, was his purpose in ending it where he did. (I happen to agree, but that's just me. Just relaying what he said.)

Yes, it is not the best written book. There are inconsistencies and some of it is just awkward. However, I love it all the same despite those problems. I just got my own copy, so I shall have to read it again, but still I think I shall love it, not because it's this amazing book, but because of Elphaba.


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Silwen
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Posted: Tue 18 Oct , 2005 9:20 pm
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Yes, I've heard people say they like Elphaba best. I think she is indeed a credible character, but some things in her behaviour still don't make sense to me. I can't remember the times when it was most obvious in the book, but I frequently had the feeling her actions were unexpected and shouldn't be. This could have been avoided, perhaps, by closing those time gaps that Jude mentioned. We miss out a lot of her life that would help to explain why she does what she does. The way the story is told with those gaps, it is not a good way to do it when it comes to characterisation. So for me Elphaba may be credible and "real", but not really well-developed, being the main character. I did not care about her as much as Maguire should have made me care, I didn't even really like her. I bothered even less with the other characters, needless to say.

But with the character it is as with almost all things in the book: they just are. No explanations are given, which is unheard of in fiction, generally. What you do as a writer needs to make sense somehow, things need to be tied together. I feel there is too much disjointedness.

What didn't I like about the story? It has a lot of potential, but it wasn't realised. A story fails if it cannot be told well. If we look at the plot itself, all the things that happen, it is good; but the story, the actual telling of events, fails. The author has good ideas, but he cannot present them.

Elphaba's death did not seem poignant to me, unfortunately. It was the part of the story I was really curious about and felt would be a strong section in the novel. It was described far to briefly for that and didn't manage to grab me. It was a useless death, as Maguire wanted to point out, I suppose. Yet I felt no sadness at all. It was just an end. I did love the last lines of the novel, however - they were magnificent. My thoughts on reading it at the time were, "Even if the man does not know how to write a good book, he at least knows how to end one." ;)
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He said that he left all of those loose ends on purpose.
After ten years I am sure he believes it too. ;) But seriously: I think we are not speaking of the same loose ends. You mean the things that remain unsolved in the story, the things that Elphaba wants to bring to a proper end, the things she wants to achieve. I meant something different - Maguire has so many great themes, probably too many for just one book, that he cannot write about at length simply because they are too many. The nature of good and evil, politics, love, human nature, friendship etc. None of these are dealt with satisfactorily. These are the loose ends that I doubt Maguire all left unresolved on purpose, for if he did, there is no use in writing a book about them.

Oh, now for something good about Wicked: I named my gerbils Fiyero and Liir after the characters. :D

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