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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Post subject: The Istari Discussion Thread
Posted: Sun 03 Jul , 2005 1:55 am
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This idea has been percolating around in my overtaxed brain for a couple of weeks now. It was stimulated by an off-hand comment that Faramond made in one discussion (I'm sorry that I don't have a specific quote) about wanting to make a comparison between Gandalf and Saruman. I found his comment quite intriguing, and I was sorry that he did not get a chance to elaborate further. I'll say straight out that one of my main motivations for starting this thread is to create a place holder for him to elaborate on those thoughts if he ever gets the inclination to do so.

I too find the Istari (and particularly Mithrandir and Curunir) particularly fascinating and illuminating about Tolkien's work. I would be mostly interested in discussion of their role in the text, as well as the really interesting fragments that are contained in the Istari section of Unfinished Tales. But I also would be open to thoughts about the film's adaptation of these characters, as well as our friends Radagast, and Pallando, and of course Alatar.

Wilt thou learn the lore that was long secret
of the Five that came from a far country?
One only returned. Others never again
under Men's dominion Middle-earth shall seek
until Dagor Dagorath and teh Doom cometh.
How hast thou heard it: the hidden counsel
of the Lords of the West in the land of Aman?
The long roads are lost that led thither,
and to mortal men Manwe speaks not.
From the West-that-was a wind bore it
to the sleeper's ear, in the silences
under night-shadow, when news is brought
from lands forgotten and lost ages
over seas of years to the searching thought.
Not all are forgotten by the Elder King.
Sauron he saw as a slow menace.

I love this alliterative verse of Tolkien's. As Christopher himself says in UT, "There is much here that bears on the larger question of the concern of Manwe and the Valar with the fate of Middle-earth after the Downfall of Numenor ... ."


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laureanna
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Posted: Sun 03 Jul , 2005 5:42 am
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I have questions about the Istari and all Maiar.

1. Tolkien fashioned Maiar as similar in rank to angels. But angels derive all power from God. Is Tolkien implying that Sauron derives all power from Eru, and that Eru allows all that happens through Sauron?

2. The power that wizards traditionally have is the power to break the laws of nature. Just what is the nature of this power?

EDIT: more!

3. From the Valaquenta: "But of Olorin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in a form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Iluvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of the darkness."

:love: I've always loved the character of Gandalf.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Sun 03 Jul , 2005 11:08 pm
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laureanna wrote:
1. Tolkien fashioned Maiar as similar in rank to angels. But angels derive all power from God. Is Tolkien implying that Sauron derives all power from Eru, and that Eru allows all that happens through Sauron?
I would say yes. All things derive from Eru, as He explicitly told Melkor in the beginning, and in the end all things serve His ultimate plan.
Quote:
2. The power that wizards traditionally have is the power to break the laws of nature. Just what is the nature of this power?
I would like to know the answer to that question as well.
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3. From the Valaquenta: "But of Olorin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in a form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Iluvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of the darkness."

:love: I've always loved the character of Gandalf.
Yes, and I love that description too. :love:

All really appreciate this, from UT:
Quote:
Then Manwe asked, wehre was Olorin? And Olorin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwe would have of him. Manwe replied that he wished Olorin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that 'Olorin as a lover of the Eldar that remained', apparently to explain Manwe's choice). But Olorin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwe said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olorin (illegible words follow that seem to contain the word 'third'). But at that Varda looked up and said: 'Not as the third'; and Curumo remembered it.


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Jnyusa
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Posted: Mon 04 Jul , 2005 4:02 am
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Do wizards traditionally have the power to break the laws of nature, or is it more to use the laws of nature in extraordinary ways?

Gandalf says, "I must have something to work with. I cannot burn snow."

I've always pictured the power of Merlin - and also of Morgan and her sisters - as a power that comes from a deep understanding of nature.

Jn

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bornilon
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Posted: Sat 09 Jul , 2005 6:34 am
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You have to sympathize with the predicament of the Istari. Here you are, one of the Ainur, a chorister in the Great Music, a genuine Shaper of Arda (jg), and one day the boss says “I’ve got this little job for you”. And it turns out the job involves getting jammed into a hroa—and not necessarily a really nice hroa like you’d make for yourself, but maybe kind of a decrepit, wizened one with whiskers and what-not—and sent off to the other side of the Sundering Sea to babysit a bunch of fractious Children for a couple of thousand years, basically charged with giving them good advice (which you know for the most part they’ll ignore or resent) on how to fight off the boss’s Competition. Now you and your colleagues may not be the greatest of the Ainur, but there are five of you to one of the Competition, and you’re pretty sure if you went up against him together you’d probably wipe up the floor with him damn quick. Bada-boom, badda-bing, say good-bye to the Big Red Eye, and catch the next boat out of here. But nooooo, that’s not allowed. Not only are you under a restraining order from TPTB, you’ve got this straitjacket made out of meat that keeps you from doing your best moves.

I mean, is it any wonder Gandalf got testy from time to time? It’s not like he volunteered for this gig. He could have been floating happily and dreamily around Lorien, or finishing up his Master’s in Pity with Nienna, but instead he’s inflaming his arthritic joints slogging all over Middle Earth in all kinds of weather without even a place to hang his large pointy hat. Yeesh!
I think it's entirely possible that Saruman didn't fall so much from pride and power-lust as from a desperate wish to hurry up the process of offing Sauron so he could scrape the mud of Middle Earth off his soft kid boots and get the hell back to Valinor!

(Or, in other words, *bump*)


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Wilma
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Posted: Sat 09 Jul , 2005 4:50 pm
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Very well said. Right now I am busy (Farscape vids Ack!!!!!!) butI am actively lurking if that is concept.

*Sings to herself with Haunted vid, ba da ba ba... *

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Sat 09 Jul , 2005 8:39 pm
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bornilon, I like the way you put things. You manage to say serious things in a humerous lighthearted manner. Very nice. :)


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IdylleSeethes
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Posted: Sun 10 Jul , 2005 6:16 am
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I sort of agree with Jnyusa on the power of the Maiar. It derives from their knowledge and understanding of the music. The music is the set of patterns that exist in the universe. Knowing the patterns a maia can grasp the current situation and know what forces can be used to influence it or take advantage of it.

Thinking of existence as set of tailorable reusable patterns rather than a deterministic mechanism, like a clock, allows you to avoid some of the major quandaries of Christianity related to the omnipotence and omniscience of God and predestination. Knowing the patterns relieves the Maia or wizard from knowing all of the details of history that led up to the situation and avoids the conclusion that there is only one logical outcome that must have been known at the creation of the universe. and therefore gives them some measure of control.

I once thought that Tolkien inherited the idea of the ability of the Maiar to know and influence from the western wizard tradition, as exemplified by Merlin. In the last few years I have come to believe his understanding was far deeper than this. Why music? I have about 2 dozen versions of Cry Me a River, written 50 hears ago. All of them are the same. All of them are different. All expected to be listened to repeatedly. Two dozen different expressions of the same pattern. The same can be said of the multiple versions of Vivaldi's Four Seasons, which is 250 years old. Tolkien understood something about pattern, repetition over time, and variation.

I don't know its origin. Nothing in his background betrays a source of this understanding. The Catholic theologian/philosopher who abandoned determinism was Pierre Teilhard de Chardin who wrote Le Phenomene Humain in 1938 but it wasn't published until his death in 1955 and wasn't available in English until much later. His writing is only being well understood now. The concept of patterns appeared in the soft sciences in the '70s and the hard sciences in the '80s. None of these seem like possible influences on Tolkien. Maybe Chardin was an Inkling.

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bornilon
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Posted: Sun 10 Jul , 2005 7:41 am
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Now that's more like what V had in mind, I'll bet! :D

Very interesting post, Idylle. I'd originally intended my first post in this thread to be a discussion of the roots of "magic" in Middle Earth (following on Jny's observations). Unfortunately, it wound up seeming kind of aimless and meandering (as my posts often do!). But one of the things I was playing around with was the idea that the Maiar, as singers in the Great Music and as demiurges in the Shaping of Arda, had a greater control over the "laws" of nature, in the sense that what might be "laws" for lesser folk were to them more like a set of possibilities or guidelines which they could manipulate to a desired end. I think your idea of "patterns" in the Music captures this idea more aptly and eloquently. And extra points, btw, for bringing Teilhard de Chardin into the discussion. Would you see the Music as a part of the Noosphere? Or vice-versa?

V - thanks for noticing that my frivolous post actually tries touching on some of the topics I'm hoping this thread will eventually discuss! :) Of course, I should have assumed you would...


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Wilma
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Posted: Sun 10 Jul , 2005 8:34 am
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Your post wasn't frivolous. It was excellent.
About Tolkien seeing patterns well the little I know of Tolkien, he was into languages. Aren't languages very complex (sort of) patterns? They have rules and a systematic change about them sometimes.

How many languages came from latin? Once upon a time everyone spoke latin, but then in different regional groups there was sytematic pattern shift. At least I think so. Kind of like IS's example about 50 versions of the same song but all are different. Isn't that what happened with languages. In this case, Latin, was the original song, but then one group spoke in a slightly different manner, while another group spoke it in a another slightly different manner. Until they shifted into something new and totally differnt (at least on the surface). Consider these languages differnt versions of the same song. While the whole time, the latin word base (although slightly changed due to regional groups) was used to convey the same meaning. Just like the lyrics or the notes stay the same, while the people that play them change.

I think I just answered my musings on how Tolkien understood music so much while it does not seem he was am active musician. (I kept musing on it, in the Sil discussion in TORC).

Anyway I think I osgiliated this thread. Feel free to go back on topic.

PS. I got the fan vids done!! All I need to do now is burn the CD woohoo!!!!

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dhspgt
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:)

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IdylleSeethes
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Voronwe,

I apologize for the slight derailment here. A part of this is applicable to your topic but maybe we should defer the broader discussion to a later time and another thread.

bornilon,

I don't have time to directly respond at the moment. However, the noosphere has been on my mind since last year, in connection with the group that now is board77. I thought of turning to it, once the charter issues are settled.

For anyone interested, this is a mild, but useful introduction:

Chardin's noosphere

Judith on Chardin's noosphere:
Quote:
This convergence however, though it was predicted to occur through a global information network, was not a convergence of merely minds or bodies -- but of heart, a point that he made most fervently.


We have some excellent examples to draw on in board77, although I don't think the timing is correct to pursue this now.


dhspgt,

Thanks for the clue about Barfield. This is of great interest to me. I'll see if I can chase anything down.


Editted to add:

By the way, welcome bornilon.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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I see no undue Osgiliation here, Idylle. I intended this thread to be an open-ended discussion related to the Istari. Nothing in any of your posts have, IMHNILO, deviated significantly from this subject area.


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dhspgt
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:)

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Jnyusa
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Posted: Mon 11 Jul , 2005 5:28 am
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Badda boom

You just left off in the place where I wished to pick up, both from the TMU thread and the Important Films thread, though it is bornilon who touched most closely on the thread I intend to start here when committee work subsides.

But I fear that the clock does tick between my posts ....

For Idylle -- Semprini and Faramond both did excellent synopses of Barfield in the Important Films thread ... and I just went to get you the link and find I do not have it ... but it might also have changed with the name change.

(Another task for another day - updating links)

The Gandalf-Saruman contrast is deeply interesting to me and, in my opinion, shows how far beyond ... parochial Christianity Tolkien had really gotten.

And kudos to Wilma for making the music-language connection and bringing us full circle.

Jn

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dhspgt
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:)

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Jnyusa
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dh - you are quite right. That was Bachelard, not Barfield. :oops:

See how far out of the loop I have fallen!

Jn

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Faramond
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Posted: Mon 11 Jul , 2005 9:12 pm
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Oh goody. Lots of delicious stuff here. Be back later for a feast. :D

I can't believe I didn't see this for more than a week! :Q

edit:

Here is the comment I made that Voronwe refers to in the opening post:

Gandalf acted as a mortal because he left and always intended to leave, Middle Earth. Gandalf became the white, and was given second life, and journeyed into the west. Saruman acted as an immortal, seeking to rule the coming age of men and remain in Middle-Earth, and he sank into evil and utterly perished.


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Faramond
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Posted: Tue 12 Jul , 2005 7:11 am
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I am glad now that I never got around to starting this thread when Voronwë suggested I do so several weeks ago. I'm also glad it took me a week to find it. Now that I hear everyone else speaking I can finally expand on my original thought.

Except what I had in mind wasn't working, so I'll do this instead, a rambling thought poem, a wild Quidditch flight through the world of wizards.


Gandalf Is Now Here

If there are any to see, then I at least am revealed to them. I have written Gandalf is here in signs that all can read from Rivendell to the mouths of the Anduin.

A wizard writes his sign everywhere he goes. That is part of his nature. A wizard is powerful and persuasive in both the natural world and in the halls of men.

Gandalf's sign is a rising music in others. His theme is a pattern of hope played from one end of Middle Earth to the other. Theoden is dead before Gandalf comes. When Gandalf leaves Theoden is alive. Theoden shines forth. Theoden is now here. That is the sign of Gandalf. Theoden carries the pattern of Gandalf to others, and they shine forth, and they are now there.


Gandalf's Entish Name

a-lalla-lalla-rumba-kamanda-lind-or-burúmë ...

Gandalf pushes people to the hilltops to see new horizons.

Gandalf meets Bilbo and pushes him out the door. Bilbo is now here. Bilbo is elder friend to Merry and Pippin and pushes their minds out of the Shire. Merry and Pippin are now here. Merry and Pippin go on a great journey. Merry and Pippin meet Treebeard and push his mind out of the forest. Treebeard is now here. Treebeard pushes the trees out of the forest. The trees are now here.

All over Middle Earth the themes of Gandalf are sung by others in their own voices and woven into their own songs. Gandalf becomes a part of them and they shine brighter and become more themselves.

Gandalf's true name is as long as the names of everyone he has touched.

The sign of Gandalf is new roots growing in the earth.

Gandalf is an enchantment spoken in the earth.


Saruman Is Nowhere

You have doomed yourselves, and you know it.

Saruman writes his music to drown all other music. His pattern is for no one else. Others do not shine in the presense of his music. He will not suffer their own small patterns. They will not be themselves, but instruments for Saruman to play his own set patterns. Saruman leaves an empty space where Theoden once was.

Saruman hates death. This means he hates to lose control of his own pattern. To him those that lose control of their own music are doomed. The only life he sees is to hoard his pattern unchanged forever in his tower. He has doomed himself, and he does not know it.

The sign of Saruman is an empty pit in the earth where roots once were.

Saruman is a magic spoken against the earth.


Illuvatar Is Now Here

dhspgt: Gandalf was the presence of the spirit (the music) of Iluvatar in the earth.

Focus on Theoden. There he is, shining brightly, himself. Pull out. Now, in the background, there is a web of white in harmony with all the other colors around it. This is Gandalf. We see where he touches Theoden, where they both leave their bright signs. Follow the strands of Gandalf's life, and we find the webs of others woven through his and then reaching into places Gandalf's does not. Here is Faramir's web, the glowing strands of his life, touching Gandalf's here and there, but also reaching into places Gandalf's does not.

Faramir has his own entish name, of which Frodo is a part. Between them there is a pattern in the music that is much like the pattern kindled by Gandalf in others. But these patterns are not the same, and one does not inspire or beget the other. Look at them again and see that they contain a common foundational theme, a common inspiration.

Pull out even more, until we see all of Middle Earth. Now, in the background, is another web touching all the rest, singing a pattern to all those who will hear it. Here it flares into brilliance when Gandalf become the white. And there again when Frodo is rescued by the Eagles. But mostly it is in the background, a foundational hum, heard by some and spoken by some to others and spread like a good rumour. We are all wizards. Illuvatar is now here.


Hope for Saruman

Will you not come down?

There is one story, but many threads left to be woven together. Nothing is certain. Saruman weaves his own patterns. That is the gift of Illuvatar. There are other Sarumans in the story. They can still come down.


Faramond


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dhspgt
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:)

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