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*I Gar nia-Laim, The House of Languages* (Translations)

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Breogán
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Posted: Tue 04 Jan , 2005 12:39 pm
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Alandriel

IMO, there should be no need to reconstruct the names of months in Adûnaic since we know for a fact Sindarin was one of their everyday languages in Númenor...
But, if you you really fancy this idea, here you have, a reconstructed list of Adûnaic months and numbers. Etymologically speaking they are derived from Elvish roots, and imitate some of the morphological changes present in the very reduced Adûnaic corpus.
Let's say it's Neo-Adûnaic and it's marked with * :wink:

[ img ]

I won't post here the derivation process, for it's long and tedious for those not interested, but in case someone for teh sake of curiosity wants to learn more, just let me know.

Last edited by Breogán on Wed 05 Jan , 2005 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Eruname
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Posted: Wed 05 Jan , 2005 3:36 am
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Breogán wrote:
Helge's course is very good, but if I were to take a course on Quenya, I would combine his with Thors'. :)
I haven't ever run across Thor's. Have a link?

In your opinion, is Quenya or Sindarin easier to learn? I've always felt that Quenya was nicer sounding so that's why I looked up the courses on it first.
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But if any of you needs a hand studying one of Tolkien's languages, I'll be delighted to help. (Don't tell anyone, but languages are my secret vice :love:)
If we set up some kind of classroom here, I'd participate. I just need other people to study it with. There's no way I could ever do it all on my own. I need company! :mrgreen:

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Breogán
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Posted: Wed 05 Jan , 2005 1:11 pm
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Eru,
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In your opinion, is Quenya or Sindarin easier to learn? I've always felt that Quenya was nicer sounding so that's why I looked up the courses on it first.
Both have their pros and cons.
Pros: Quenya corpus is the largest by far, and Tolkien laboured more into this language than in any other, so the grammar is far more complete and the degree of development is greater, what leaves less room for speculation and theories.
It is the most popular of Tolkien languages, and there are thousands of people out there studying it. Also, the number of "experts" is greater, so in case you need someone to give you a hand, there's always more people to turn to.
Finally, there are more sites and publications dedicated to this language, and therefore, more research.
Cons: Quenya grammar is quite different to that of the Germanic languages, i.e. English BUT at the same time it's quite simple, so once you get familiar with a few concepts and manage to forget about English grammar, you'll be OK.

Pros: Compared to Quenya, Sindarin basically has little pros. Those interested must find consolation in the fact that the Grey Tongue was the most important elven language spoken in ME, not Quenya.
If you have a taste for Celtic languages, the Sindarin mutation system and phonology will please you.
Cons:Its corpus is minimal, what leaves too much room for speculation, theories, and humongous-headed geek wars (see TORC Languages forum :wink: ).
It's grammar, same as Quenya's, is different to that of the English tongue, with the added inconvenience I just mentioned: its small corpus.
It also requieres to memorise a lot of information such as tables of mutations, exceptions, etc.

If you really like the sound of Quenya, then you should definitely go for this language. On top of the pros listed above, your interest will keep you going when you find yourself struggling with one thing or another.
Quote:
I haven't ever run across Thor's. Have a link?
You can download it from my Yahoo Briefcase. I'm working on its translation right now to upload it onto my website.
Click on the following link to get to the briefcase welcoming page:
http://f1.pg.briefcase.yahoo.com/house_of_feanor
and once there, sign in with your YahooID (which I have previously authorised in order to grant you permission), and it will redirect you to the briefcase page, but know you'll see 2 folders. In the one called "Ceol" you will find the Quenya Course, Quetin Lambe Eldaiva, in pdf format ready to be downloaded.

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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Wed 05 Jan , 2005 7:36 pm
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:bow: beautiful o great one! :mrgreen: Thanks a lot. I'm sure the pirate will be along shortly to pilfer and plunder :wink:

And I'm quite sure I'll be back sometime soon with some more cryptic requests for translation into Quenya :halo: .. and you'll hear from me on that *other* topic too... just as soon as I'm more ....erm.. organized
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Eruname
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Posted: Thu 06 Jan , 2005 9:05 pm
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Well with the help of your reasoning, I do think to start with Quenya would be best for me. I've always had an interest in Celtic languages, but since I've never ever gotten into them, Sindarin can wait.

I've gotten into your yahoo briefcase and was able to open the pdf file, but have no idea how to download/save it to my own computer. It can't be hard...I don't know why I can't figure it out. :oops:

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Breogán
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Posted: Thu 06 Jan , 2005 9:52 pm
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Eru

Do you use Adobe PDF Reader?
If so, on the top left corner of the pdf reader enbedded on the webpage, there should be a "save a copy" button, or perhaps just the saving icon.
If there is any problem, give me a shout.

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Eruname
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Posted: Thu 06 Jan , 2005 9:58 pm
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I feel so stupid. :roll: That worked. Funnily enough I couldn't go to File -> Save from the menu. Anyway, I got it. Thank you!

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Breogán
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Posted: Fri 07 Jan , 2005 1:56 am
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:D
You're welcome!

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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Sun 09 Jan , 2005 8:12 pm
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Bre - can I pls ask you to double check / verify a few Sindarin translation for me?

Great white shark (S) Nimaeargleith (white sea death)
Manta Ray (S) Morchaithras (Shadow horn)
Kraken (S) Belegaerog (Great Sea Daemon)
Sperm Whale (S) Charothrand (Hallmaw??)
Turtlefish (S) Aeg-crumor (fell turtle)

:halo: Thanks :hug:
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Breogán
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Posted: Sun 09 Jan , 2005 10:24 pm
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Alandriel,

Here you have
Quote:
Great white shark (S) Nimaeargleith (white sea death)
:?: Where do -gleith comes from? :scratch
What about *Nimaearurth ("white sea-death)"?
Quote:
Manta Ray (S) *Morchaithras (Shadow horn)
*Morchaith- ... you mean S. morchant? :scratch
The origin of the term for this fish is Spanish manta, "blanket" or "mantle". *Collim "mantle-fish" would be perfect.
Also, I know manta-rays are also known as devilfish, so *Rauglim could be another option?
Quote:
Kraken (S) Belegaerog (Great-Sea Daemon)
Perfect. :D
Quote:
Sperm Whale (S) Charothrand (Hallmaw??)
Nope. To start with, no unmutated word in Sindarin can begin with ch-... May I ask where did you get this translations? :scratch
In LT, Uin is the name of the primeval whale... ok, that belongs to the Tolkien myth/language in their very early stages, but the term's morphology still suits Sindarin. Based on that, what about *Eredhuin "seed-whale"?
Quote:
Turtlefish (S) Aeg-crumor (fell turtle)
No. Triple :scratch
Did you copy these translations from a Sindarin site? :?:
*Thandlim, "shield-fish", would be my suggestion.

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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Sun 09 Jan , 2005 11:58 pm
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Nope .... But I sure did not make them up - am not even good enough for such an attempt :oops: They come from MERP -
Middle Earth Role Play.. erm... stuff :halo: You'll hear that term a lot in the future :mrgreen:

Thanks for the clarifications - nothing like having an expert on board :mrgreen:
More.... later :wave: ......... the graphic is awesome btw :bow: :mrgreen: :hug:
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Breogán
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Posted: Mon 10 Jan , 2005 1:10 am
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Ah, now it all makes sense :wink:
I know MERPs, they were (and guess they still are) also called "MERP" here in Spain. LOTR was the first roleplay game I ever played, years and years ago *Sigh* :wink: "Iron Crown Enterprises" and their made-up lore and languages :D

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Kaya
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Posted: Sun 30 Jan , 2005 11:13 am
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Bre, could you help me with the translation of some words into Adunaic please?
Bay of Belfalas
North reef
Stone fields
Isles of XXX
Havens of XXX
Moonstone fortress

Then I've come across the term 'Arat Agmir' (which would be another word for Haradwaith) but I have no clue if this Adunaic or not, and if it would be a correct translation if so.

I also wonder if there is an Adunaic translation for Umbar?

Thanks. :mrgreen: :hug:

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EdaintheRanger
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Posted: Mon 31 Jan , 2005 9:44 pm
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Hello there Bre,

I've been thinking of this one for a while, been meaning to put it in an Edain post at some point.

Is it possible to translate the phrase: "Shine Bright Lady Moonlight," into Sindarin? As you mentioned earlier that it was an everyday language amongst the Numenorians, and so I reckoned that the ranger would at least have a passing ability in the tongue.

Looking forward to any replies. :mrgreen:

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Breogán
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Posted: Mon 31 Jan , 2005 10:55 pm
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Kaya, Edain

I shall post the translations tomorrow. :D

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Breogán
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Posted: Wed 09 Feb , 2005 3:51 pm
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Edain

Shine Bright Lady Moonlight.
Sílo Lim Heryn Ithilgalad

Kaya

Bay of Belfalas *Kof an Tunsakal
North reef *Azrâma Foroth
Stone fields *Talîf Burî
Isles of XXX *Lôni an XXX
Moonstone fortress *Êth a' Nîlobur
Quote:
Then I've come across the term 'Arat Agmir' (which would be another word for Haradwaith) but I have no clue if this Adunaic or not, and if it would be a correct translation if so.
I also wonder if there is an Adunaic translation for Umbar?
I’ve never heard the name "Arat Agmir". It could be Adûnaic, although I doubt it. Sounds Semitic alright, but the etymology seems very obscure. Where did you come across this term? Let me know and I shall look into it.

Regarding Umbar, there is no Adûnaic translation AFAIK, at least not an attested one. We know Umbar was the name given to that land by its dwellers when the Númenóreans first set foot upon it, and they preserved the name aware of its Quenya meaning, "Fate". The Atani languages were influenced by the Eldarin tongues and sometimes they shed light on obscure etymologies. In this case Umbar would be the perfect Sindarin translation of “evil/bad land” - a name that, IMO, would make sense during certain stages of this territory’s history… Based on this meaning it could translate into, so to speak, Neo-Adûnaic as *Dulgathâni.

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Berhael
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Posted: Wed 09 Feb , 2005 5:25 pm
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Breogán wrote:
Regarding Umbar, there is no Adûnaic translation AFAIK, at least not an attested one. We know Umbar was the name given to that land by its dwellers when the Númenóreans first set foot upon it, and they preserved the name aware of its Quenya meaning, "Fate".
I guess I'm going to get my knuckles rapped over this, but wasn't the Quenya word for fate "Ambar"? (as in "Turambar"...)

Then again, "Ambar" means "world" ("Ambar-metta" = "world's end").

:scratch

Help?

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Breogán
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Posted: Wed 09 Feb , 2005 8:18 pm
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:mrgreen:
Perhaps not all your knuckles rapped ;)

Ambar is a Qenya-style word, and the early Qenya Lexicon translates this term as "doom". It's likely to be a variant of umbar/umbart- (MBARAT), only present (with this specific meaning) in some of the oldest texts (BoLT II)
Turin Turambar turun ambartanen
and present in The Silmarillion under the same form.
However, Amrod & Amras' amilessi tercenyë chosen by Nerdanel were Umbarto, "Fated one". These names disturbed Fëanor greatly, who decided to rename their sons Ambarto "Exalted one", although Nerdanel's name of insight proved true when Amras died on board of one of the ships burnt by Fëanor in Losgar. Here in The Shibboleth Tolkien had already abandoned the use of ambar to translate "fate, doom", and continued to use umbar throughout all this period and in his LOTR-style Quenya.
Quote:
Then again, "Ambar" means "world" ("Ambar-metta" = "world's end").
Yes, but it's not the same stem we are talking here, but a compound a-mbar fashioned after Gr. Oikumenê.
This same term is also the locative "in bosom" in The Markirya, but this is Qenya.

:mrgreen:

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EdaintheRanger
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Posted: Wed 09 Feb , 2005 8:47 pm
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:mrgreen:

Ohh thanx for that Breogán.

Well Edain (the character) is no Aragorn, but I'll have him crooning that in some future post.

Well worth the wait.

:cheers :mrgreen:

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Kaya
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Posted: Fri 11 Feb , 2005 9:47 am
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Thank you Breogán!! :hug: :mrgreen:

About 'Arat Agmir', I got that from MERP. :oops:

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