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Nazgûl - a discussion

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*Alandriel*
Post subject: Nazgûl - a discussion
Posted: Fri 14 Jan , 2005 2:48 pm
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I'd like to open up a discussion about the Nazgûl.

'Bad guys' in LotR have always fascinated me. First up I must put a disclaimer :wink: : I'm by no means half as knowledgeable than many of you when it comes to Tolkien canon and I'm guilty of not having read many undoubtetly very in-depth threads on TORC.

What I'd like to do is to be very 'unorthodox' and give you some excerpts from MERP – role play material that was produced by Iron Crown Enterprises that fits (in my opinion) incredibly well with Tolkien's world; specifically – excerpts from 'Lords of Middle Earth – Vol II. Mannish Races' and see what those that are much more into canon have to say about it.
Comments by any and all are most welcome, whether you're a total geek or just a small geek like me :wink:

What interest me most are your comments on the nature of the Nazgûl. How you view their immortality, strengths and weaknesses.

A small note: MERP is an 'expansion' of Tolkien's world. They've created more races, places, even 'invented' languages and history. So please, the purists, take all this with a bucket of salt :wink:
MERP Lords of Middle Earth – vol II wrote:
THE NINE NAZGÛL
Aka: The Úlairi (Q=Undead); the Ringwraith; the Shadows; the Black Wings; Black Riders; the Fell Riders; the Nine Riders; the Nine Evil Servants; the Nine Servants of the Lord of the Rings; the Nine; und the Shriekers.

In MERP the Nine are listed as:

- The Witch-King / Mûrazôr (1st). Race: Dúnedain (fallen Númenorean – male sorcerer); home: Armenelos and Romenna in Númenor, later Barad-dûr, Carn Dûm, Minas Morgul
- Khamûl the Easterling (2nd). Race: Womaw, later Dol Guldur, Barad-dûr.
- Dwar of Waw (3rd): Race: Wôlim (male Mage); home: Waw in SE-most Endor, later Barad-dûr, Minas Morgul
- Indûr Dawndeath (Jí Amaav) (4th). Race: Kiran (male Mage0; home: Koronandë in Korland (SE-most Endor), later Amaru in Mûmakan, still later Minas Morgul
- Akhôrahil, (5th): Black Númenorean (male Sorcerer); home: Barad-Carannûn in SE Endor, later Dol Guldur, Minas Morgul
- Hoarmûrath of Dír (6th). Race: Urd (male Animist); home: Urd in north-central Endor, later Barad-dûr, Minas Morgul
- Adûnaphel the Quiet (7th): Black Númenorean (female Bard); home: Armenelos in Númenor, later Umbar, still later Barad-dûr and Dol Guldur.
- Ren the Unclean (8th). Race: Chey (male Illusionist/Mage); home: UlkCheySart; later Barad-dûr, Minas Morgul
- Ûvatha the Horseman (9th). Race: Variag (male warrior); home: Khand, later Minas Morgul, Barad-dûr, Dol Guldur

AN OVERVIEW OF THE RINGWRAITHS
The Nazgûl (BS. "Ringwraiths") - or, as the Elves caned them, the Úlairi (S. "Those o the Unlight") -served as the Dark Lord's most powerful tools of terror and conquest. As Second-born Kings, they provided Sauron (aka Gorthaur or Thauron) with the insight and empathy necessary to effectively horrify and subdue others of their kind, an important quality after the rise of the Mannish races and the decline of Elvish influence in Endor. As Ringwraiths, they provided .absolute loyalty and they enjoyed the longevity to achieve virtually any goal. As enchanted beings they wielded the power to contest or defeat nearly any foe. Their peculiar skills enabled them to foster and perpetuate the Evil One's goal to become the King of Men
The Úlairi exercised tremendous power, even before their downfall, for Gorthaur the Terrible chose them because of their might. All ruthless Kings, they knew how to dominate their brethren and administer realms of Men. Their experience proved invaluable during the Dark Lord's quest to conquer Middle-earth. Collectively, their repository of knowledge was vast indeed, for each Nazgûl came from a unique background and all of them save the three fallen Númenoreans (Adûnaphel, Akhôrahil and Mûrazôr) - grew out of a different setting and culture. Taken as a whole, the Nine understood most of the peoples of Endor and at one time or another ruled about half of the Middle Land. Sauron selected them carefully and reaped great rewards.

5.12 ÚLAIR NATURE

"In their white faces burned keen and merciless eyes; under their mantles were long grey robes; upon their grey hairs were helms of silver; in their haggard hands were swords of steel. (LotR I ,p. 263.)

The Nazgûl provided the Dark Lord with a physical means of spreading his abhorrent Shadow. Nonetheless, their own being remained quasi-corporeal. Nearly weightless and invisible to all but those residing in the world of the shadows (e.g. other Undead and Sauron) or wearing a Ring of Power. their contacts with Arda seemed fleeting. The Ringwraiths simultaneously manifested themselves in two worlds, but remained wholly in neither. They manipulated objects and cloaked themselves in visible trappings but they remained apart from other Men.
The duality of the Nazgûl's' terrible existence is testimony to the horror fomented by the Lord of the Rings. While more powerful than they were as Kings, the Úlairi remained Sauron's subservient vassals, spirits forever tied to his being. They received immortality, but lost Eru's Gift of Death and perpetually suffered, as if always dying. Their shrieks instilled terror and spawned fear that caused the hardiest of foes to quiver yet the shrillness of their cries suggested their own inner pain. Although possessed of enhanced senses and the ability to see in utter darkness, they remained virtually blind. Huge beasts and whole armies obeyed their word but they trusted nothing and counted no friends. Despite the fact that sharp blades broke upon their flesh and that they showed no fear of mortal combat, they shunned soothing brooks and the comforting sun. No challenge of melee forced their flight, yet they shied from flickering firelight and the gentlest call to Elbereth. Nature's seemingly innocuous intrusions often turned them away.
Most ironic of all, however, was the fact that though they cheated their natural fate and achieved undying life their spirits lost the ability to outlive their death. By taking the Dark Lord's offer, the Nazgûl unwittingly rejected Eru's blessing to the Secondborn, the bequest of a special "life" after their end in Arda. They traded their immortal souls for immortal forms.

The general powers and features of the Nazgûl

With the uniform exception of the immortal Valar and Maiar, the Nazgûl are among the strongest living powers in Arda. Their strength reflects their ties to the Maia Sauron, their Rings of Power, and the One Ruling Ring.
While each Úlair is unique, of course, they all share certain common elements. They are all immortal and semi--corporeaI beings with enchanted qualities, creatures with awesome collective power and formidable individual strength. As shown in the stories surrounding the Witch-king, they feared no single individual from the ranks of Middle-earth's Free Peoples; instead, nature and circumstance usually dictated their vulnerability. No other Men rival them although the Adan Lords from Númenor and the Kingdoms in Exile could contest them in certain situations. Still, they are sometimes upset or driven away by fire, water or some manifestation of Varda (e.g., the Dame "Elbereth"), and magic weapons can slay them.
Now why am I asking all this? Because I'm beginning to write a baddie in RP and although he's not a Nazgûl per se, I think I shall be borrowing :wink: but I'd like to see some opinions first on the text presented above.
Thanks :mrgreen:

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Nin
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Posted: Fri 14 Jan , 2005 5:02 pm
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I have not read it all, but if you're interested I can tell you once the reflexion I put into the creation of Hades... who can be qualified as a baddy, methinks.

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Lidless
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Posted: Fri 14 Jan , 2005 5:49 pm
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Not about the nature of the Nazgûl per se, but regarding the names - from the invaluable website http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/
Quote:
One of them, the second in rank after the Lord of the Nazgûl himself, was named Khamûl, and also known as the Black Easterling. This is the only one of the nine Nazgûl explicitly named by Tolkien.
This may come as a surprise if you've come across one of the many sources that list a set of names of the other eight: Murazor (the Witch-king himself), Dwar, Ji Indur, Akhorahil, Hoarmurath, Adunaphel, Ren and Uvatha. These names are common across the Web, and often have detailed biographies to go with them. They're also consistent with what Tolkien had to say about the origins of the Nazgûl: in the Akallabêth it is stated '...among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race', and indeed three of these names are Númenórean in form: Murazor, Akhorahil and Adunaphel.

None of these eight names, though, have their origins in Tolkien's own work. Instead, they come from a series of role-playing and trading card games produced by Iron Crown Enterprises. The names of Murazor, Dwar and the rest emerged from the unavoidable need for these games to develop and expand Tolkien's universe to meet the needs of the gaming fraternity. The games' popularity accounts for the regular appearance of the names, to the extent that they're now frequently presented as the 'true' names of the remaining eight Nazgûl.

Some readers have even suggested that these names are so widely accepted that they should be considered the de facto names for the eight otherwise unnamed Ringwraiths. On a personal level, or in the context of the games that spawned the names, this isn't an unreasonable approach: if Tolkien never told us the name of, say, the Witch-king, there seems little obvious harm in imagining that his name was originally Murazor (or anything else, for that matter). Things become a little more problematic where the names are published without explanation: we receive plenty of e-mail from puzzled readers trying to work out which of Tolkien's books the names come from (hence this entry in the FAQ).

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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Fri 14 Jan , 2005 8:25 pm
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Lidless Thanks :mrgreen: I was actually quite aware of that hence the 'disclaimer' in the first post. I would almost cease to exist without the Encyclopedia of Arda. That website is worth Mithril!

Nin Of course I want to know :P
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eärendil
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Posted: Fri 14 Jan , 2005 8:47 pm
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Me needs more time to think of that question properly but I want it to be known that i'm a Nazgûl geek; have them nine on a poster hanging on my wall :twisted: :twisted: great to make sweet dreams ;)...

There is one thing though that I have always been wondering about :
In "Many Meetings" Gandalf explains to Frodo that the Nazgûl are frightened both by fire and water thus when Aragorn and Glorfindel prevented their flee from the anger of the Bruinen released by Gandalf and Elrond they are doomed to disappear for a time.
I've always found this an interesting weakness from them (just like gollum hates both the light of the sun and of the moon...) because it sort of hinders their power.
Is that because all these elements are mastered by Valar whom the Nazgûl fear (or at least don't serve)??

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Mummpizz
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Posted: Fri 14 Jan , 2005 8:51 pm
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The Nazgul ar the most sad and shocking inventions of Tolkien, imho, and I have to throw in a buzzwrord here:

Bakshi.

His Nazgul are peculiar in several ways: the way they twist the world that is around them , bringing with them a reality of their own - which is an element that PJ copies, but only for the "Ghost world" Frodo enters when he puts on the ring. With Bakshi, however, the ghost world arrives when there's more than one Nazgul around.

Retaining life, and nothing more, when everything human of the person has perished, is something as shocking as exiting life with the body still bumbling about (and muttering "braaiins!").

Phooey. Pretty bad baddies those Nazguls. As Tolkien describes them, a bit dumb, too, but it isn't granted that only the highest intellect clings to his spirit when the body perishes.

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Jaeniver
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Posted: Fri 14 Jan , 2005 9:16 pm
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I know i certainly used Nazgul information when creating Jae. Very interesting stuff to read! mind if i use some of it Alandriel?? just for references?

the thing i find facinating about Nazgul is the fact that they trade the gift of the Valar to be immortal. they chose. a frightening thought humans would go that far to forsake the promise of a happy afterlife just to hang on to life simply for the reason of not dying.

interesting creatures.

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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Fri 14 Jan , 2005 10:10 pm
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earendil81 wrote:
Is that because all these elements are mastered by Valar whom the Nazgûl fear (or at least don't serve)??
I think so Eari and not only based on the MERP stuff above :wink:
The whole concept of them, strong and powerful as they are, being 'checked' by seemingly harmless natural things of 'good and or 'cleansing' energy (sun, water) I find really interesting. Will be anticipating more 'input' from you.

Mummpizz: I have a confession to make :oops: I don't remember the Bakshi version :oops: :oops: I remember being so terribly disappointed though that I vowed never to watch it again. Maybe I should? :halo: What strikes me though is your comment: As Tolkien describes them, a bit dumb.. Dumb? The Nazgûl? Now that is an impression I never had. Could you elaborate?

Jae: of course you can take notes. Actually - I think it would be a very good idea if you did :twisted:
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Berhael
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Posted: Fri 14 Jan , 2005 11:44 pm
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Dumb yeah... being so close to the Ring in several occasions (in Hobbiton, when they ask the Gaffer about "Baggins", and in Bree, at the Prancing Pony) and yet missing it. Not very threatening and powerful eh Mr Tolkien. ;)

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Posted: Sat 15 Jan , 2005 10:50 am
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I wouldn't say "dumb". Though they really come over like that.

But they have to rely on different senses and so they might miss something that's obviously clear to us.

Gandalf states in Many Meetings:
Quote:
You were in greatest peril while you wore the ring, for then you were half in the wraith-world yourself and they might have seized you. You could see them and they could see you.
I think that they wouldn't be able to see Frodo that clearly otherwise. And they might sense the present of the ring, but might not quite be able to locate its exact position.

In Bree I think there is the addition of Aragorn's presence whom they fear, IMHO.

After being stabbed, Frodo was becoming more and more visible to the wraiths.
Quote:
They did not need the guidance of their horses any longer: you had become visible to them, being already on the threshold of their world....On foot even Glorfindel and Aragorn together could not withstand all the nine at once.
This I had pondered long. Does that mean that on horse-back Glorfindel and Aragorn could have withstood?

Another thought.

Might the distance be a point? The distance to their master Sauron?
I think they are less powerful in the Shire, compared to their power in the lands near Mordor.

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Posted: Sat 15 Jan , 2005 2:51 pm
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Berhael wrote:
Dumb yeah... being so close to the Ring in several occasions (in Hobbiton, when they ask the Gaffer about "Baggins", and in Bree, at the Prancing Pony) and yet missing it. Not very threatening and powerful eh Mr Tolkien. ;)
Isn't it that Sauron was the dumb-ass here. He builds this incredable power into the ring, but fails to build in an alarm that sound when a Nozdrul is near.

And I have never been totally convinced that the Nine are his best tools of war as is sugested. On Weathertop, five of the nine are chased off by Strider with fire. The intellect I think survives, but not the personality.

Which is the interesting thing about the nine, their roots. Why did they take the ring, and how long did it take to change them?

Also, in PJ's version, the flyingNozdrul are within twenty feet of Frodo and the ring twice (dead marshes, stairs) and hover before him at least once (Osgiliath). If that was the point of the war, don't you think they would have gone and taken the wooly footed one and his ring, rather than flap off.

Dumb ass direction :bang:

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Lidless
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Posted: Sat 15 Jan , 2005 4:25 pm
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Is it acceptable to dress up as a nazgul at a private party? Or is the memory of the movies still fresh in peoples' minds?

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truehobbit
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Posted: Sat 15 Jan , 2005 8:08 pm
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I think it might be scary for people to come dressed up as a Nazgul - unless you're talking about yourself, in which case it might be scarier if you come as yourself than if you come dressed up as a Nazgul. :P :mrgreen:

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Dindraug
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Posted: Sat 15 Jan , 2005 8:29 pm
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Quote:
if you come dressed up as a Nazgul.
What people do in the privacy of their own home is private and not for discussion :Q

And if the Nazgul have no bodies, how do they stay on the horses anyway :Q :Q

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Axordil
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Posted: Wed 19 Jan , 2005 4:06 pm
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...just not ones we can see. They interact with the physical world--and thus can wear clothing and armor to give shape to their shapelessness--but having abandoned light for shadow, no longer impinge upon it.

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Mummpizz
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Posted: Wed 19 Jan , 2005 4:16 pm
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"Dumb Nazguls" - - - this humble opinion of mine is based upon the apocryphs rather than the canon. In the UT (and in LotR, too), Tolkien describes the "hunt for the ring", and the mightiest, fiercest, worstest beings ever not anymore really living in Middle Earth don't miss any occasion to get tricked by almost everyone.

- They let themselves be led astray by Saruman
- Gollum evades their grip
- Fooled twice in the Shire by nasty, fat hobbits
- Less than mediocre performance on Weathertop
- Get shot down by archery
- Let untrustworthy Uruks do their jobs

All in all, they're bigger threats than actually active players. That poking of Frodo in Weathertop was ridiculous, compared to their outnumbering presence and their ability to sweep the whole diminutive company to the Ghost world.

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Axordil
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Posted: Wed 19 Jan , 2005 10:36 pm
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Mummpizz wrote:
All in all, they're bigger threats than actually active players.
Absolutely. And this comes off in the films too...when they are just THERE they are frightening. When they attack on Weathertop...not so much.

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Jnyusa
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That's interesting that Encyc. of Arda says it doesn't matter if we imagine them having names. I always thought one of the most significant thing about them was that they had no names. They no longer have existence or will in their own right, they're just expressions of the will of Sauron. But that's no good for role play, is it ... if you're going to create a character he/she has to be able to do things and not just be controlled by another, unless you're going to write the character of the controller as well.

Their greatest weapon is fear, Tolkien says ... interesting because ... well, if Tolkien was writing about the human desire for deathlessness, the Nazgul are really the apparition of what would happen to us if we got what we thought we wanted. You know the old proverb, when God wants to punish a person, He gives them what they ask for. lol. Coming face to face with a Nazgul would have to be repulsive in the worst way, worse than seeing a corpse, to see what your spirit corrupts to when life 'beyond the confines of the world' is denied in favor of un-deadness within the confines of the world.

It's definitely beyond my skill to convey something like that in an RP ... but I always found the WiKi's words to Eowyn absolutely chilling: ... "he will not slay thee in thy turn ... etc."

People use the expression 'fate worse than death' but that passage is the only one I've found really convincing!

Jn

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laureanna
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Hm. I went to the TTT with a nazgul. Well, actually, my daughter in a nazgul outfit which she sewed up herself. She's quite an artist, but she makes me a little nervous ...


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Dindraug
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It has always puzzeled me that the rings given to Men were way more pliant than thoses given to Dwarves or the Elvish rings.

Why were the nine more suseptable than the seven? Sauron had them both, but he appears to have corrupted Men way more, or we would have (three or four, I can't rememeber) short squat Wraits running around Middle Earth.

I also have a facination for the origins of the nine. Tolkien never said who they were, and named only two (I think), but described them as great kings of men. Which men? Wouldn't it be fab if the Witch King of Angmar was the corrupted remains of Ah Phrazon? It was never stated, but why not (well besides the drowning of Numenore, but that is of little import).

So, if not Numenores Kings, who were they. Kings of Harad, Rhun, Dale?

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