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Lily Rose
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Posted: Thu 26 May , 2005 2:33 am
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Sorry about the double post, but I have started reading Sailing to Sarantium, and I wanted to state my opinion, so far. It was harder to get into than Tigana, but it is still a very interesting story. I am confused by some of the plot elements, such as the purpose of characters like Zoticus and Linon. Perhaps, it will make a bit more sense further down the road.

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laureanna
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Posted: Thu 26 May , 2005 3:04 am
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I loved Sailing to Sarantium (I hated the Summer Tree - go figure). You'll get into it, eventually, and then you'll be looking for the sequel.

I don't mind the lack of strong female characters that I can relate to. Having been stuck with strong male characters for so many decades, I'm OK with it. ;) Adventuring is such a masculine archetype, it is hard to pull it off the female-adventurer without it becoming uncomfortabley strange, anyway. That said, some heroes are much more well-rounded than others - they have much more of the masculine and feminine in them. Some of main characters in Sailing have that quality - both nurturing and dominating, both artistic and destructive.

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Lily Rose
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Posted: Sat 28 May , 2005 1:41 am
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I'm finding that I don't mind the lack of strong female characters. Perhaps it has something to do with my past history. I am always looking for the perfect man, be he real or fantasy. Of course, there is no such thing as perfect, but that doesn't stop my imagination....
That said, for the females, the Empress Alixana has definitely piqued my interest.

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laureanna
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Posted: Sat 28 May , 2005 4:56 am
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The problem with finding a guy who is perfect is that he would be too insufferable to live with, and probably wouldn't be the least interested in someone like me. :D That said, I'm lucky enough to have someone who is perfect enough, and who thinks the same of me. :love:

Alixana is a strong character, as is the singer for the Greens (names escape me). It is possible for a woman in a place like Saurantium to have power, but only if she has a large structure of protection surrounding her. Kay does a good job of exploring that option, something that I have seldom seen in fantasy books. He also shows how the women of the other half lives - at the whim of men. Plain old life is too much of an adventure (and often an unsavory one at that) for the average female. Going off looking for trouble, without protection, would be too foolhardy. It's one of the things that irks me about some of the roleplaying I've read in That Other Messageboard - all these lithe, young, beautiful, half-elven maidens with emerald eyes and named swords, wandering about in the woods alone. The only RP character I have that wanders is a Beorning. She turns into a bear if need be. :D

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Lily Rose
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Posted: Sun 29 May , 2005 4:14 am
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Firstly, the character that you are looking for is Shirin. I am curious as to the purpose of the talking birds, and if hers has any link to Linon. And also why Zoticus referred to her as a prostitute, when clues suggest that he cares about her quite a bit. But, I will have to be patient and keep reading.

You had to start on one of my favorite subjects...RPing...
It is ridiculously annoying that many of the rp characters that I have read are simply too perfect to fit any semblence of reality. I write three different characters, each with there own set of foibles.
The character that I have written the longest is stereotypically beautiful, but has a terrible temper and a tendency to get herself into trouble. My other two characters are male, one of which is overly egotistical, and the other one is a thief who is in a different womans bed nearly every night.

The fact is that characters need to have some kind weakness to be interesting or remotely plausible. I guess that is why I like Crispin. He doesn't fit the typical hero mold. He doesn't seem to be overly handsome, nor is he a brilliant warrior, nor does he have a particularly pleasant temperament. Or much of anything else common to the standard hero.

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Frelga
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Posted: Sun 29 May , 2005 5:16 am
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* Frelga crashes her way into the thread.*

RPing? Somebody mentioned RPing? :help:

You know, I've decided I don't mind the improbable RP characters that much. Just because I approach RPing as a form of storytelling doesn't mean everybody is; for others it's a way to play out their girlish/boyish fantasies. I could go on at some length about giving a character a balance of strength and weaknesses, but that's another thread. (Shall we start one? Where?)

What does bother me is when those improbably strong and perfect females (and males, but we are used to that) show up in published fiction. All those medieval-style societies where everybody is oh-so-equal and men don't bat an eye at battling side-by-side with a woman. I'm not convinced that it would work. If you change one thing, you change everything.

For myself, I tried to come up with a story placed in a society where men and women are truly equal, and results were peculiar. In one, both sexes are equally limited in their choices, which is probably realistic enough. The other took a somewhat Heinlenesque turn, with little trace of contemporary nuclear family. And the third has Amazons. :blackeye

For a writer who does a great job, IMO, of writing strong, yet realistic females I would point to Cynthia Voigt. Her stories are geared to young women, and her characters are often rooted in and limited by the feminine roles, yet they are determined, resourceful, compassionate and indomitable. I'm thinking Gwyn in Jackaroo and Elske in Elske.

Maybe that should be a new thread: Strong female characters in fiction and RP?

Now I need to look up Tigana, so I can participate in the actual discussion. :oops:

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Eruname
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Posted: Sun 29 May , 2005 6:58 am
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Finished Tigana...what an unexpected ending!

As for what I asked about earlier, I think I get it now after reading the Afterword. Kay wrote this:
Quote:
The underlying ideas, for me, had to do with how people rebel when they can't rebel, how we behave when the world has lost its bearings, how shattered self respect can ripple through to the most intimate levels of our lives.
I think the first part applies to Alienor. Here's a bit from the book to refresh memories. ;)
Quote:
"Is this what happens to us?" Devin said then, quietly, reaching for words to frame this new, hard thought. "When we are no longer free. Is this what happens to our love?"

[snip]

"It is one of the things that happens to us," she said at last. "A kind of insurrection in the dark that somehow stands against the laws of day that grind us and cannot be broken now."
Devin thought about it.
"Possibly that," he agreed softly, working it through. "Or else an admission somewhere in the sould that we deserve no more than this, nothing that goes deeper. Since we are no free and have accepted that."
I'm guessing that Alienor taking many, many men to her bed and "teaching" Devin was her way of rebellion since she couldn't do anything else and perhaps Devin realized this.

SPOILERS











I really wish Dianora would have stayed around for a bit longer so she and Baerd could have been reunited. I also wish Scelto would have told the truth about who Rhun really was. I don't get why he kept that a secret especially from Alessan as that was his father.

I also found the ending quite quick. The actual confrontation didn't last long at all too me. I would have liked it if Kay would have extended it a bit to balance out the book more. There was so much plotting going on and then it was over so quickly.




END SPOILERS


I'm definately going to be checking out another book of his. I'll have to see what else my library has. :)

Frelga, I agree with what you say about strong women and men not minding not fitting into a Medival society. Thinking about Tigana, I can't say there were any fighter women, but women who were strong enough to kill if they had to and that seems pretty believable to me. But this was a fictional place and Kay did have a country that was ruled by women priestesses so I guess that made strong women more easily acceptable.

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Lily Rose
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Posted: Sun 29 May , 2005 4:33 pm
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Frelga wrote:
*

Maybe that should be a new thread: Strong female characters in fiction and RP?
Just stopping in to say that is a great idea, Frelga!:)
Anyway, I have finished Sailing to Sarantium and have started Lord of Emporers. I found the ending of Sailing to be rather frustrating. I suppose that it is meant to be that way so that we will want to read the next book...but usually there is at least some closure to a book even if there is a sequal.

I have to agree that Baerd and Dianora not reuniting was a big disappointment to me. That was something that I had been looking forward to from the time that I met Dianora.
I will have more later, but I am in a hurry at the moment.

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You can call me faithless
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Eruname
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Posted: Sun 29 May , 2005 6:41 pm
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I think Sailing to Sarantium is going to be the next book I read. I'd wanted to start the Fionavar Tapestry trilogy but the first book, The Summer Tree is checked out. The Lions of Al-Rassan is in but I'm not sure that's something that interests me right now. Has anyone else read it?

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Lily Rose
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Posted: Thu 02 Jun , 2005 2:50 am
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Eru, have you statred Sailing to Sarantium, yet? Just curious...;)
I am still working through Lord of Emporers. I have found it to be a bit confusing. The minute that I get used to one storyline, another starts, with yet more new characters. I'm hoping that it will sort itself out, shortly, because too many storylines tends to bore me.

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I still cling to hope
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Eruname
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Posted: Thu 02 Jun , 2005 3:22 am
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I hope to get to the library tomorrow. :)

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enchantress
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Posted: Thu 02 Jun , 2005 6:44 am
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A drive by post for now... Im so glad to see this thread active :D

Eru, Ive read Lions of Al-Rassan ( I read ALL Kay books :P - yes, Im a Kay sw00ner :P :oops: )...it is excellent. It is based on 6th century Spain, then Al-Andalus... with the Christians, Moors (Muslims) and Jews living side by side... but then that civilization falling...

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Estel
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Posted: Mon 06 Jun , 2005 4:53 am
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Drive by post for me as well - it's too late at night to be intelligent right now :P

I prefer StS and Tigana over Kays other books, as much as I can prefer any of his books over the others (very difficult to have preferences with Kay precioussssss).


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Amarie
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Posted: Tue 07 Jun , 2005 6:37 am
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Sorry for my absence from this thread. :D Been very busy!

The more time passes, the more fond I get of Al-Rassan. I love many of the points raised in this thread because I agree with many of them! :D I'm really an FT fan myself, but that's because it was my first love. Of all of them, it's the most "epic", and I like it for that.

Frelga, you definitely should start a thread on female characters in fiction. :D I'd post!

I'm surprised no one has really mentioned Last Light though. Was it unimpressive? What did you think?

Crispin was a great choice for the StS protagonist. His artistic background renders the Sarantine world and story in a completely different way as to the others. There is emphasis on colors and just like stories, the way colors blend and clash maybe. I sure wished I was an artist after reading the Sarantine Mosaic. LoE was more of a letdown for me though...

TIGANA SPOILERS









Eru, I felt the same after reading the afterword. GGK brings up some very interesting points. I also found the ending quick. I was disappointed in the fate of Valentin and the reunion that never happened between Baerd and Dianora. But maybe that was the point? Alessan and Baerd should never have known. Maybe they should have (or deserved to) remember only? Not sure.

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Lily Rose
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Posted: Tue 14 Jun , 2005 5:35 am
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Amarie, I have the opposite opinion. I found Sailing to Sarantium to be confusing, but as I slowly work through LoE, the pieces are finally falling together.
*******SPOILERS***********















There are still some things that don't make much senae to me, such as the purpose of Kasia's marriage to Carrulus (sp?) It came out of the blue, with nothing whatsoever to suggest that the two of them had any kind of relationship.

I don't understand what Gisel thinks that she is going to get from sleeping with Leontes. I guess that I have to read further for that one.

Also, I still haven't figured what Scortius has to do with the big picture, other than being a pretty face.

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Aglanor
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Posted: Tue 21 Jun , 2005 8:16 am
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Finished "Lions of Al'Rassan" awhile ago, and though I found it to be less well written than other volumes, the setting is my absolute favorite. I've had quite enough of magic, various fantastical races and such, so the realism of Lions really appealled to me. Also the simple, yet effective god system is wonderful (with still though a nameless God above them: the weaver? ;))

Also character-wise, it gave a nice view from all side. Where with Tigana, two sides of the three were well written, the third (Alberico) was just one huge monologue. Here that was slightly the case with the Mahjriti tribesmen, but not as much. And the story is just great.

So setting-wise "Lions" takes the number one spot, though I found Tigana to be better written personally. So the three books I read (Tigana, Lions and Fionavar Tapestry) are still a bit contending for the top spot...;)

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TheMary
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Posted: Wed 19 Oct , 2005 7:11 pm
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*bump*

Okay I bought Lions and Tigana last night (as I previously mentioned in Alatar's thread). This should be interesting considering how passionate many of you are about GGK's work. *is excited to see what all the fuss is about* :D

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Eruname
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Posted: Wed 19 Oct , 2005 8:05 pm
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I just read a passionate portion in The Summer Tree and was reminded of this thread! :P

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Eruname
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Posted: Sat 22 Oct , 2005 9:19 pm
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The Wandering Fire spoilers ahead.

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There's so much to talk about. Many comparisons to Tolkien to make. I want to but am being lazy right now. :P

The Wandering Fire took a turn I don't like so much. The Warrior being Arthur...then Jennifer being Guinevere and of course Lancelot is going to come along. I don't know why this bugs me, but it does. It just seems slightly silly. :neutral: I'd rather not have any other mythology entering into Kay's work I guess.

I'm glad that I read Mists of Avalon before because otherwise I would have been totally clueless about Arthur's history. I had no knowledge of his mythology. But in a way, maybe if I hadn't have read it, I'd be thinking Arthur in The Wandering Fire is cool. :P

About his name "Childslayer", does anyone know what that's about? When did he kill children? Is this part of his mythology?

edit: Think I've figured it out. Did some research. Merlin told Arthur that there was a child born on a certain day that would destroy him or Arthur found out about Mordred, so ordered all boys recently born or born on a specific day brought to Caerleon where they were put on an unmanned ship which was set out. The ship crashed, killing all the children but Mordred?

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Abandon this fleeting world
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-Ryokan

http://wanderingthroughmiddleearth.blogspot.com/


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Eruname
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Posted: Fri 28 Oct , 2005 5:20 am
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I'm not liking The Darkest Road as much as the first two books in the trilogy. This one seems to be moving far too slowly. I would expect a bit more action....I guess more like what Tolkien did in Return of the King.

I'm a little over halfway through and I'm hoping it will pick up.

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