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Comic Books (Spiderman spoilers if you care)

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halplm
Post subject: Comic Books (Spiderman spoilers if you care)
Posted: Wed 14 Jun , 2006 5:46 pm
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So, if you read the NY Post, they've pointed out today that Spiderman is revealing his secret identity to the world today.

I've got mixed feeligns about this. On the one hand, you can't have a static character forever and still tell interesting stories... but on the other hand, there are certain defining characteristics about a serial character that make that character interesting or beloved...

For Spiderman, the secret identity was one of those. He's ALWAYS fought to protect it. I haven't read the story, but I know why he's doign it, and it really seems like a cheap stunt that is fundamentally changing a character and they'll have to deal with that change for YEARS, long after the added publicity wears off... leaving regular readers of the books to deal with stories about a character very different than they knew before...

Back on the other hand, if they tell a bunch of good new stories... it will be good :)

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Nienor SharkAttack
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Posted: Thu 15 Jun , 2006 10:00 am
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:Q

:neutral:

:rage:

:bawl:

Not! Right! :(

Why is he doing it?

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halplm
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Posted: Thu 15 Jun , 2006 3:32 pm
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Due to some particularly deadly fights between superpowered people... the government has passed teh "Superhuman registration act" where people with superpowers have to register themselves.

This has split the superheroes down the middle, some think it's a good idea, some think it is not. Apparently Peter came down on the supporters side... completely contrary to his character...

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Posted: Thu 15 Jun , 2006 3:33 pm
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JM Straczynski is one of the guys behind this isn't he? I read a pretty compelling justification by him.


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Nienor SharkAttack
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Posted: Thu 15 Jun , 2006 4:56 pm
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halplm wrote:
Due to some particularly deadly fights between superpowered people... the government has passed teh "Superhuman registration act" where people with superpowers have to register themselves.

This has split the superheroes down the middle, some think it's a good idea, some think it is not. Apparently Peter came down on the supporters side... completely contrary to his character...
That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard - and far, far from the whole point of superheroes! Especially Spider-man. :(

:rage:

Last edited by Nienor SharkAttack on Thu 15 Jun , 2006 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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halplm
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Posted: Thu 15 Jun , 2006 4:58 pm
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Well, it's not likely to turn out well for him... here's the cover for an issue in a couple of months (yes, that's spiderman, in his lame new costume):

[ img ]


although, it's kind of silly, as the Green Goblin and Venom, the two bigger baddies there... already knew Peter was Spiderman... so, it's not like this revelation impacts them... Which just makes it a little confusing...

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Nienor SharkAttack
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Posted: Thu 15 Jun , 2006 5:01 pm
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:doh1::doh1::doh1:

In the Spider-man part of my head, none of this has ever happened (and that includes the costume!).

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halplm
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Posted: Thu 15 Jun , 2006 5:11 pm
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you are not alone :)

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Nienor SharkAttack
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Posted: Thu 15 Jun , 2006 5:16 pm
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:toast:

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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Posted: Thu 15 Jun , 2006 6:09 pm
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I stopped reading Spider-Man long ago when they gave him stupid looking costumes.

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Posted: Fri 16 Jun , 2006 8:20 am
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Here's something by JMS on the issue, but I know there was more....

Quote:
barn...@shentel.net wrote:
> The New York Times article puts the key point of Marvel's Civil War as
> "Would you give up your civil liberties to feel safer in the world?"
>
> If that's even close to the way it is presented by Marvel then there
> can be no question which side is right, despite the writers claims.
> Because no one who puts safety first would phrase the question that
> way.
>
> So basically everyone against registration is being true to themselves,
> while everyone else is either behaving out of character or being simply
> a stereotype of their character, to fit them on the appropriate sides.
>

Actually...no.

This was one of the points I raised with Marvel when the idea first
came across the pond from Mark Millar...those who take sides on this
issue must, on balance (there are always folks on any side of an
argument who take that position for purposes of convenience) do so
because they actually *believe* that they are right.

Which is why, in the first Spidey issue of mine that actually deals
straight-on with the topic, I went to considerable pains to spell out
exactly why the senators and others involved with this genuinely
believe they're right in doing so...and some of their points even Peter
can't argue with. Doctors belong to the AMA and drugs are administered
through the FDA so that if there's a mistake, there's accountability.
If the doctor on your block should be held accountable and be find-able
in the event of a mishap, shouldn't a hero also be liable, find-able
and accountable if he should wipe out a city block in a mishap? And if
not, then is he really a hero?

There are likely some heroes out there who are tired of working on the
periphery, tired of fighting the police and the bad guys, who wouldn't
mind the idea of being endorsed and acknolwedged and brought in, in
exchange for legitimacy and the ability to focus on just the bad guys.
CIA agents are covert, work under a variety of aliases...but the
government knows their real names. Shouldn't that apply to heroes as
well?

So in sum, I don't think it's really a paper tiger or as much a
strawman argument as you might suggest. (In some of our knock-downs at
the retreat, Mark took the position that hell yeah, most heroes would
go for it, just as most americans would go for it...but then he's
Scottish, and therefore of suspicious morality.)*

(And to your first notation...there have been any number of Gallup
polls and others that ask straight up, "Would you be willing to
sacrifice some of your liberties in exchange for better national
security?" and the majority of those polls have, sadly in my view, come
back in the positive.)

jms
(and that was just a joke, for any scots in the group)


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Posted: Fri 16 Jun , 2006 8:20 am
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And some more:
Quote:
Tarquin Biscuitbarrel, Esq. wrote:
> So, after this week's ASM, is anyone going to try to argue against my
> original theory that there's a clear and present "wrong" side in the Civil
> War in Marvel's eyes?
>
> Joe Q. promised that there would be no right or wrong side in Civil War, and
> both sides would be presented evenly... and so far, the pro-registration
> side has been represented by a bunch of arrogant Henry Gyrich clones no one
> could love but their mothers, while the soon-to-be leader of that side was
> caught bold-face lying to Peter Parker, the "everyman" the readers will live
> Civil War through, while using questionable means to meet his ends before
> the Civil War has even begun.
>

As the person who wrote said issue...I beg to differ. It is your
argument that is a bit dishonest and misleading.

First off, you *characterize* the senators but I note that you do not
*quote* them. This is a nice debating tactic for trying to dismiss
someone, but it's not a very honest one.

Everything the senators said as their rationale for the registration
act is absolutely sensible and straightforward. There's not a
straw-man argument in the batch.

They said that if a doctor, or a lawyer, or an airplane pilot has to be
registered and licensed, so that they can be held accountable if
something goes wrong.

They said that lawyers and judges and politicians take similar risks of
attacks on themselves and their families by criminal elements, but they
don't wear masks to do their work.

They wouldn't let Spidey's testimony be entered into the official
record unless he provided his name and testified under oath...which is
standard protocol for the senate. Despite this, they were willing to
listen to what he had to say, and made the offer to take his testimony
officially if he were willing to abide by the law.

Each of those is a reasoned, rational position. How is this setting up
an obvious bad guy or wrong side? Throughout this issue and the one
preceding it, it's Tony and Peter who get basically shut down when they
can't really counter the valid points made by the senate committee.

To your latter point...you handily omit the fact that when Tony lied to
Peter, it was in service to trying to *prevent* the registration
act...meaning that at this moment, Tony was functioning in the
anti-registration side of things. So he lied in the interest of
advancing that cause. If that lie makes the side he's advancing the
"wrong" side, then by your own definition the anti-registration side is
wrong, not the pro.

You are conflating right and wrong with lawful and unlawful, and they
are two very different things. Yes, Peter feels strongly about this
issue...but feeling strongly about something doesn't make you right
(any more than it makes you right in the way you chose to characterize
this story, however strong your feelings about it might be). There are
all kinds of laws about which I strongly disagree...but they are the
law, and there are many who do feel they are right.

Right and wrong are moral, personal interpretations of what's going
on...the law is how society deals with those issues. You cannot
confuse the two.

Some feel gun registration is good, some think it's wrong; some are
pro-abortion, some are anti-abortion; some are for superhero
registration, some are against it. Each side can muster compelling
arguments on their behalf.

And all of them think that they are right.

And that was the job of the story, to make sure that both sides were
presented as honestly as possible, with each having legitimate reasons
for believing what they believe, not because they want to take over the
planet or advance some evil cause.

Speaking as the guy who read this, you can say otherwise,and believe
you are right.

As the guy who wrote this...I say you are wrong.

Difference is...I was there when the writing happened. You were not.

So I think the benefit is slightly on my side....

jms


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Nienor SharkAttack
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Posted: Fri 16 Jun , 2006 1:32 pm
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I just hope the film makers don't jump on this idea. They're fond enough of taking off Spidey's mask as it is. :neutral:

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halplm
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Posted: Fri 16 Jun , 2006 2:58 pm
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The problem with the current group of Marvel writers is that they're trying to create real world type stories in comic books. It's a trend that's been going on for a long time. There aren't just "good guys" any more, they're "real people" meaning they make all kinds of mistakes, to the wrong thing sometimes, and don't maintain their own character.

This is all done to make things seem more "real." The same is true of this whole Civil War story. Obviously, if superpowered people lived in the real world, there would be all kinds of laws and registrations, and whatever the government wanted to maintain order.

But this is COMIC BOOKS. For 70 years, heros have lived in a world where they operate outside the law. Sure, they have to deal with it, because they're mostly vigilantes, but part of the struggle with the heroes was balancing their "work" with their "life."

Peter Parker has been the ultimate representation of this. He views his responsabilites as Spiderman as not only something he's good at, but something he HAS to do, as he has great power, and therefor great responsability. He's also often seen as one of the most "real" characters. he has real life problems that he's always having to deal with. He has to deal with an unfair press, rent, college, a day job. He's not Bruce Wayne with infinite resources, or the Fantastic Four with Government assistance.

He's just a guy that got bit by a spider and does good things.

But back to my point. In the past, comic writers dealt with real life issues through allegory and creative stories. They didn't ask themselves... well, if this happened in the "real world" how would people react... becaust that's a stupid question... it's not the real world.

The current era of Marvel comics has all the writers asking themselves "if this happened in the real world... in today's climate (ie post 9/11), how would people react?" Well, it results in a whole lot of stories that make some sense if you ask yourself that question, but make NO sense with respect to the characters that have been around for 40 or 50 years...

They're trying to provide new ideas and new concepts to old characters... but they're using the crutch of "real world" scenarios to pull readers in, when in the past, writers would tell their own world's stories and leave it to the reader to make the connections to real world situations.

Couple of quick examples... The X-men dealt with Mutant-hatred throughout the civil rights era and beyond. They also dealt with the "Legacy Virus" throughout the era where HIV and AIDS were unknown and misunderstood. You can explore predjudice and fear without having your characters exist in the "real world."

It's fantasy.

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TheMary
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Posted: Fri 16 Jun , 2006 8:55 pm
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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To me Civil War was clearly Marvel's answer to DC's Infinite Crisis. Marvel had to one up DC hence Civil War and Spider-man's new revelation to the world.

What shocks me is that Spidey is on Iron Man's side, I thought for sure he'd be on Captain America's and it makes me sad. Spider-man is by far my favortie Marvel super hero so I hope this new twist Marvel has come up with doesn't really screw Spidey over.

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TWT
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Posted: Mon 19 Jun , 2006 4:20 pm
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I liked it back when comic books didn't try to be real...


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RELStuart
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Posted: Sat 12 Aug , 2006 12:30 am
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I haven't followed this story arc yet. But I am certianly interested in what is going on. Obviously they are bringing in what the x-men have dealt with the anti-mutant sentiment. It makes some sense when you look at it from that frame of mind.

I am glad they kept Cap on the side against the registration. To me with his bckground it makes a lot of sense. The idea itself of registration reminds me of what the Nazi's did to the Jews. Though the arguments for this can be clothed with much logic even if not being right.

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Dawnnamira
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Posted: Sat 12 Aug , 2006 2:22 am
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I agree with Liddy and a few others.

Comic books are STORIES, hence they should not try to be real. When they try to be real you get convoluted stories and messed-up lives.

In real life and the comic world! :p

That's all I have to say.

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TheMary
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Posted: Sat 12 Aug , 2006 3:29 am
I took the stars from my eyes, and then I made a map, And knew that somehow I could find my way back; Then I heard your heart beating, you were in the darkness too - So I stayed in the darkness with you
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I think they have to keep the comic world a tad bit real so that the story doesn't become too Days of our Lives. And what's real life in the comic book world? Comic books are only as real as your imagination will let them become.

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Lay down
Your sweet and weary head
Night is falling
You’ve come to journey's end
Sleep now
And dream of the ones who came before
They are calling
From across the distant shore

Why do you weep?
What are these tears upon your face?
Soon you will see
All of your fears will pass away
Safe in my arms
You're only sleeping


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