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The secret to liking Harry Potter and the Fifth Fiasco

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peeg
Post subject: The secret to liking Harry Potter and the Fifth Fiasco
Posted: Sun 20 Feb , 2005 5:07 am
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You have to read it twice.

No, i'm serious here. I know most fans felt really cheated when the read the fifth book the first time; i mean, what's up with the ridiculous prophecy? And Harry's raging hormones? And that Umbridge woman......

But last week i decided to go where no true HP fan has gone before and brave the fifth fiasco again. It wasn't as bad as i thought it'd be. Some chapters still really irked me, i still think Sirius's death was pointless and THAT DAMN PROPHECY RUINED IT!!

But it wasn't bad. Didn't even come close to it's predecessors, but in the end it was still a HP book.

And now that the sixth book (Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince) is coming out soon, it's about time we had a thread on the topic :mrgreen: Yea, i know some folks here don't like the series (*cough*Alandriel*cough*) so don't kill me for being a Mary Sue for the wrong books. ;)

There's currently a very interesting discussion on the same topic going on here (continued from the old Order of the Pheonix spoiler thread) I'd highly recommend it :) (WARNING: It links to that place ;) )

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Sun 20 Feb , 2005 7:28 am
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The fifth--fiasco?

So some people don't like the fifth book? I guess I'm not in the loop, then--I quite liked it, as did all my kids and everyone else I know who's read it.

I'll have to follow the links to see what we all missed. ;)


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peeg
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Posted: Sun 20 Feb , 2005 11:07 am
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That's funny, Prim, cause everyone i know who read it didn't like it much :LMAO: ;) Oh, well, i guess it just depends on the person.

That link i posted doesn't actually lead to a discussion on the faults of the fifth book, but is more a general analysis of the HP books.

So tell me, what was it about OotP that made you like it?

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Berhael
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Posted: Sun 20 Feb , 2005 1:33 pm
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Ohh peeg... you gave me the perfect excuse to re-read it, before the release of the sixth. :D

I'm a HP fan, by the way. :) I love the characters, and find the situations and plots very entertaining; maybe I'm not very demanding, or maybe they just remind me of my favourite childhood Enid Blyton books. :D But I think that they're excellent reading for children and young adults, better than most childrens' series: the characters grow up and evolve, for one thing, and that is quite unique.


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Dindraug
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Posted: Sun 20 Feb , 2005 3:50 pm
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I have to say I re-read the fouth and fifth books recently and I was much more inpressed than the first reading. Maybe it has just mellowed, or I was hyped out when it first came out (or RL was hectic :Q ). But reading again, and you start to like it.

That Umbridge woman, I still don't fully believe in her and think that her presence and behavious will be explained in books six and seven, and the Ministry of Magic is not quite right. The organisation I work in could so easily be the MoM. We have odd little departments, are based on Civil Service but are not, have close ties to Goverment, but are not etc, and represent a slightly different world. I compaire it daily, like when I find out about our convelesent homes or specialist shops ;)

And I know when things happen withing the church that are big news (like woman Bishops or gay priests) everybody is discussing them openly, and sides are taken. I would have loved to see more of that than the clandestine Death Eaters. But it sort of worked.

I know there are problems with book 5. The death of Sirius and the whole last 100 pages were really shoddy. They did nothing for the metaplot, or so it feels. sirius died because it had been anounced that somenbody would..... I think form what I have read the same trick is played in book 6. I just hope she has the guts to kill say Lucious Malfoy, or Draco.

In the first three books she took risks, but now it does feel a little like formulaic fantasy. I have great hopes for book six, but like five I do think it is better on second read, and after the hype has died down ;)

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Nienor SharkAttack
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Posted: Sun 20 Feb , 2005 7:38 pm
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Dindraug wrote:
I have great hopes for book six, but like five I do think it is better on second read, and after the hype has died down ;)
Oh yes, save me from the hype! Sorry, but I can't stand it! (...spoke the Tolkienist...). I'm going into hiding when book six comes out - and I'm really looking forward to it; the book, I mean.

I thought book five was great. A bit too much hormones, yes, and no, Sirius shouldn't have died, but it was very entertaining. And I liked ("liked") Umbridge.

I wonder who's going to die this time...

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Nin
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Posted: Mon 21 Feb , 2005 10:17 am
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I reread it this summer and liked it much better - I think the main reason was also being out of the hype and not expecting a breathtaking idea any more when turning the pages.

I wait eagerly for the sixth.

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Jaeniver
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Posted: Mon 21 Feb , 2005 1:01 pm
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you guys made me want to log off and reread it again.

I did quite like the first reading though read it in about four days :blackeye: and cried when Sirius died *sniff* i disliked harry's raging hormone and that Umbridge woman. both annoyed me to no end! i have never seen any adolescent behave like harry does :roll: he's worse then a woman with mood swings!

anyway, lets see what the next one brings. :)

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Dindraug
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Posted: Mon 21 Feb , 2005 1:16 pm
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Quote:
i disliked harry's raging hormone
Thats where it fell flat to me. It was just so unrealistic. Not the events, but the emotions and thinking behind it. One thing that bugs me with writers is when they cannot write the other genders, but try to. Mostly it fails, sometimes it is outright embarrising.

JK, unfortunatley, has no grasp on how the teenage boy's mind works. Lets face it most of them don't, but at least they wouldn't do that insipid crap. It was just wrong, and destracting :(
Quote:
and that Umbridge woman
...was my ex boss. Remember the balrog, with the cough. It was her, to a tea, I swear. Funny as anything with hindsite ;)

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Rodia
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Posted: Mon 21 Feb , 2005 1:48 pm
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I wanted to take a red biro at the first two chapters and correct the grammar. In fact I think I did. (only I used a pencil.)

The rest was cool. I haven't been able to follow the story precisely anyway.... :P Some day I'll read it over again from the start.

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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Mon 21 Feb , 2005 4:00 pm
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Sorry to answer late! I liked a lot of the things that have already been mentioned, but I mostly enjoy the increasing darkness of the storyline. The death of Sirius--I think we may not have heard the last of him anyway, but I thought it was a good, merciless plot development and raised Harry's stakes in the story even higher.

Umbridge is a frighteningly accurate portrayal of bureaucratic power monkeys I have known, crossed with the most hideous of teachers--in other words, a precise depiction of some members of university academia.

Harry's adolescent-boy dramatics are obviously the result of observation from the outside rather than the inside, Rowling being female, but they worked for me because I'm an outside observer, too, and I have two sons almost exactly Harry's age. To me the observation seemed pretty sharp.

The books are long, and could have been edited to be much leaner, but even though I'm an editor myself, I find that I enjoy the length. I have the same feeling I do reading a Dickens novel, or any other long but well-sustained story. There's a leisurely pleasure to knowing that there's time for everything to be given its due and for interesting digressions into side plots. It's more of a "weekend" or "holiday" feeling, compared to the driven Monday-morning let's-get-through-this feeling of a lot of modern fiction.


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Guruthostirn
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Posted: Mon 21 Feb , 2005 6:08 pm
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I never really saw how other people didn't enjoy the fifth book. For some reason, Harry's "hormone rages" never really registered with me...they just seemed natural. 'Course, I'm only about 7 years older than the fellow so things are a bit closer for me.

I must admit, the last part of the book is my favorite bit of the whole series. I LIKE action...other than that this book has most of my favorite scenes, such as the fireworks, big D's departure, and Gred and Feorge taking off.

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Jaeniver
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Posted: Mon 21 Feb , 2005 7:07 pm
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Ok so you guys made me pick up that book again and read it. got to the point harry just finished his trial. still like the book. :mrgreen:
Dindraug wrote:
Quote:
i disliked harry's raging hormone
Thats where it fell flat to me. It was just so unrealistic. Not the events, but the emotions and thinking behind it.
yep very right. like at the beginning when harry finally gets into the Order and starts to shout at hermione and Ron. Give them a break! they swore secrecy and they're your friends!!

Quote:
JK, unfortunatley, has no grasp on how the teenage boy's mind works. Lets face it most of them don't, but at least they wouldn't do that insipid crap. It was just wrong, and destracting :(
I could have told her that and i'm no guy ;)
Quote:
and that Umbridge woman
...was my ex boss. Remember the balrog, with the cough. It was her, to a tea, I swear. Funny as anything with hindsite ;)[/quote]

LMAO i remember ;) :LMAO: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: can't read the book now without thinking about that now

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halplm
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Posted: Mon 21 Feb , 2005 7:31 pm
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Hi guys, I'm a big HP fan too!

First time I read OOtP, I read it from about 4 in the afternoon to about 4 in the morning, all the way through, in one sitting.

That was crazy. I then proceeded to read it again over the next couple of weeks, and have read it again since, maybe a couple of times... I have the audio of it on my ipod, and I fly a lot...

At first, I didn't like it as much, but I do like it now, and I've done a lot of thinking why.

First, I really didn't like how Dumbledore turned out. He screwed up, and he screwed up bad, which he wasn't supposed to. However, he is human, and this made him more human. However, I think it was a series of events that was too easily avoided by common sense (ie not keeping Sirius holed up in a place he hated). I am hoping, however, that it plays out better.

Second, I REALLY didn't like the whole Grawp angle. It felt totally out of place and added nothing to THIS book, although I get the feeling it will add more later. If it doesn't, it will simply be the biggest failure of the series. Also, it took us away from the Quidditch match that I'd been looking forward to since they won the cup in book 3. Talk about a let down....

Third... Umbridge. I've said it before and I'll say it again... Umbridge is the most evil character so far. Sure Voldemort kills people and all that, but Umbridge tries to stifle them and squeeze them into souless compartments of nothing, to be cogs in a machine that does nothign but exist.... I hate her. I didn't like the book because of her. However, now that I've had the time to digest her as a character, I think she's perfect. That a character in a book could get that much emotion out of me is amazing... Even thinking about it now makes me angry. Since then, I've noticed little bits of Umbridge all over the place. Any time someone is closeminded, arrogant, mean, or whatever... So. Evil.

Fourth... I absolutely loved Fred and George in this book. Need I say more?

Fifth... Harry's Hormones. I think it was too much. I think it was JK Rowling trying to make sure that even 8 year olds new he was overreacting all the time simply because he was a teenager. HOWEVER, I can remember feeling the same way, particularly when confronted by a High School teacher much like Umbridge.... And NO ONE likes being kept in the dark, so I can understand his outbursts early in the book. It WAS over the top, but it wasn't that far off in the end.

Sixth... I think when all is said and done, this book will seem more like a prequel of the story in the last two books. It tied up a lot of loose ends from the first half of the series, and set up the conflict in the final two books. However, it felt like it was stretchign too hard to bridge that gap. The whole Cho mess was annoying, but needed to be done.... etc...

Seventh... Sirius dying... Necessary I think, for what JKR is going to do with Harry's character, but still annoying. It could have been accomplished differently, but I think it was a checkbox in the story she's had written in her head for years... I just hope those checkboxes don't ruin the story in the end.[/code]

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peeg
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Posted: Tue 22 Feb , 2005 7:29 am
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Woooo, there's more HP fans in here than i thought! Tolkien does not rule all after all.....not that i have anything against the guy. :LMAO: :mrgreen:

Now let's see.....the thing that irked me most: Sirius's death.
halplm wrote:
Necessary I think, for what JKR is going to do with Harry's character, but still annoying.
I can't at all see what was necessary about it. All it did was serve to make Harry more angry and volatile than he was before it. And it wasn't just the fact that he died that was all wrong: it was the way in which she wrote it. It seemed so detatched, something quite at odds with the passionate and lively character Sirius was. And it was much too soon after Cedric's death.....like she's going on a killing rampage :(
Prim wrote:
I liked a lot of the things that have already been mentioned, but I mostly enjoy the increasing darkness of the storyline. The death of Sirius--I think we may not have heard the last of him anyway
Well, the increasing darkness of the plot was definetly good, and expected, though i got the impression that she could have written it more skillfully, judging from her previous works. Also, i agree with you that we haven't heard the last of Sirius....something about what Luna said to Harry near the end of OotP, about the whispers behind the veil....and that mirror Sirius gave him still has some part to play, i think.

Umbridge pissed me off to no end when i read the book the first time around, but reading it again i realise, like Halplm, that she was perfect for the book. Not only that, but i think she was the most interesting new character. But i can't disagree that the end she came to was extremely satisfying..... :mrgreen:

Fred and George were "DA BOMB" in OotP.....the best and most dramatic exit from Hogwarts ever. I really hope their part in the next two books isn't dimished.

Oh yea, and some questions for which i'd love to hear your opinions:

1) What is Snape's role/relationship concerning Harry, The Order and Harry's parents? (i'm convinced he's the one who tipped off Dumbledore about the fact that Voldemort was after them.....but they died in the end anyway :scratch Intruging)

2) Percy. What are his real intentions? Now that the truth's out, what's he planning to do? (some people are convinced he's going to become a Death Eater, but i disagree. On the other hand, it's sort of hard to believe that a large wizarding family like the Weasley's could all turn out so good.....and Percy's extremely power-hungry, according to Ron)

3) Is Dumbledore the Half-Blood Prince? (based on TheWagner's theories, which are really quite ingenious:
TheWagner wrote:
The HP series is constructed almost like a fugue with a general mirror. We have discussed before how each story is about a something that serves as a b-theme in another story. Another thing that I think has been mention is that the vestiges of a symmetry are arising. P/SS begins with Harry surviving and Voldemort nearly dying; VII probably will end in a similar way (with the fate worse than death awaiting Voldemort and Harry's survival possibly being spiritual rather than physical). GoF, the mid-point, had Voldemort return to life (opposite of the beginning and [probably] ending), and Harry almost dying. Story 3 has Harry finding a link to his past and family and Story 5 has him losing it. Story 2 has Harry learning about his enemy’s past and motivations; thus, I think that Story 6 might have us learn about his mentor’s past and motivations.


4) A possible Harry/Luna romance ( :LMAO: I think it's ridiculous :LMAO: )

5) Portraits and the wizards that inhabit them, somthing that GREATLY fascinates me:
I wrote:
Is having a portrait of yourself a little like being a ghost? Only when you become a ghost you choose it willingly and consciously, but you can hardly choose whether someone's going to paint a portrait of you after you die (unless you expressly tell them not to) And what part of a wizard/witch would be preserved in a portrait? isn't that a bit like cheating death, because you're still taking an interest in the affairs of the living? Or isn't a portrait a part of the actual person but an imprint left of them after they've died? Therefore the person in the portrait is a shadow of who they were when they were alive and something completely separate from the actual person, unlike ghosts. Portraits would act like the person they were but never age, change, or develop physically or mentally in any way. Pictures with more detail and effort put into them would act and sound more like the person painted, whereas those that don't have as much detail and effort in them (like chocolate frog cards) would only look like the person.


Oh yea, the last two quotes i've put in are from the Harry Potter Discussion thread on TORC.

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Mummpizz
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Posted: Tue 22 Feb , 2005 1:56 pm
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Heehee, that's one point why I like being a non-native speaker: you may always read good books twice - in the original and the translation. And with Harry Potter (HP sounds too much like Hewlett Packard to me) Carlsen always picks the best translators.

:) :) :)

But also, I'm glad when Vol. 7 is out and Harry finally gets killed by Voldemort.

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Nienor SharkAttack
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Posted: Tue 22 Feb , 2005 5:35 pm
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Mummpizz wrote:
But also, I'm glad when Vol. 7 is out and Harry finally gets killed by Voldemort.
...

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Mummpizz
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Posted: Tue 22 Feb , 2005 5:39 pm
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Nienor SharkAttack wrote:
...
The prophecy said that one must kill the other. Ergo.

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Dindraug
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Posted: Tue 22 Feb , 2005 6:32 pm
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Mummpizz wrote:
Nienor SharkAttack wrote:
...
The prophecy said that one must kill the other. Ergo.
Or is it that one becomes the other, Harry becomes Voldermort and goes back intime to kill his own parents :Q It is a self fulfilling fantasy

:help:

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Mummpizz
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Posted: Tue 22 Feb , 2005 8:24 pm
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Living up to your "Evil Minion" status, eh, Din? ;)

I like that idea, though. Explains the "K." in Joanne K. Rowling - just like in Philip K. Dick.
If it were a K. like in Ursula K. LeGuin, Harry would turn into a dragon, gobble Voldemort up, and then fly away into the skies to appear as a text-like cirrus cloud floating over the skies of Britain, written in a language nobody but Dumbledore could read, but he would remain silent - no, I prefer the Philip K. Dick solution.

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