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Also known on TORC as the Guy Gavriel Kay swooning thread.
I know this is a repeat from TORC, but Enchie, Amarie, Aggie, Sunsilver and I were basically the only ones discussing it over there, so I thought I would repost it here and see if I could get some more views
If you haven't read GGK, please, still comment. In the previous incarnation of this thread, he was the common passion among those discussing.
I'm sure there are other authors out there who bring out the same passion in other people - its the views on reading as a sensual experience that I would really like to hear
This started out as a discussion of one book in particular, but it evolved into a question that I had.
About a half an hour ago I finished a book called Ventus, by Karl Schroeder. I would say that the first word I said when I finished the book, was wow, but that would be untrue. I breathed the word - thats the only way to describe it. I could not say it outloud. Since then, I have been sitting, running through the book again and again in my head.
You know that incredible feeling you get when you finish a phenomenal book? Where you can't breath, and you feel almost as if your heart has stopped, and you just want to read the book again - right away, no break, just read it again. Soak it in. Realize whats going on in a way that you couldn't the first time.
This book gave me that.
Though I love to read, and I probably read four or five books a week, it is not often that I stumble across a treasure like this. With Guy Gavriel Kay, yes. Michelle West, yes. George R. R. Martin, yes. I have never had it happen with a sci-fi book before though. Only fantasy. (With the exception of Sheri S. Tepper, but I don't know if she fits into either genre). Though, I don't know if Ventus could be considered purely sci-fi as well. Though all the "magical" things that occur within it can be attributed to (nano) technology, there is a deep sense of fantasy within it as well.
I am in awe. I am inspired. I am even drawn to tears by the beauty of this book. I lost myself within it, no longer in this world, but in another, so well written, it very well could exist.
Read it. Read it read it read it!!!! Even if you are not a sci-fi fan (god knows, I usually am not), just read it. You will definitely not be disappointed.
I quoted one of the lines from this book in the cyberpunk thread, and I quote part of it again now, for it is all the more true after finishing the book...
"To read is to make love to the world"
I think perhaps, that instead, to read is to have a world make love to you. If that makes any sense. Either way, thats what I feel that this book has done to me. Its as if, in its beauty, this book (and others I have read) has become a lover. Unfamiliar now, but with each reread, destined to become more beautiful and more known. Though the intricasies of each of book I read become more known as I reread them, in the truly great books, there is always more to know, more to recognize. Each incredible book I read is like a lover. Different books by the same authors merely create a different mental caress. While I am discovering the depths of these books, I am also loosing myself in them. Saying goodbye to my identity, all the while discovering things about myself through the words that I did not know. Different enjoyments, different pains.
One of the best authors for doing this is Guy Gavriel Kay. Half quoting Enchie here, reading a new book by Kay is like experiencing a new caress from a long time lover. When I am done with his books, I cannot even breath a word. I am stunned, in awe, and completely overwhelmed... for hours, if not days. Though I do not have quite that depth of feeling with this book, it is close.
Right now, I am shaking, flushed, excited and exhausted, and despite all of my talking, the only word running through my head is "wow". I want to read it again, but slower. I want to revel in the depths of it, finding details I had not noticed before. Truly breath in each page, trace over certain lines. I am lost.
Does anyone else get this feeling after reading an incredible book? As though the book has made love to you... Do you see reading as a sensual experience?
Beautiful Estelly.
I have one word to reiterate: Kay.
For it is he and his writing that taught me about this quality of the written medium.
Now that I think back, I think it was a mixture of things, but I am certainly forever indebted to Kay...especially finding Kay at a particularly emotional time in my life... whatever negative things I can say about that time, the new awareness of literature that came after has been a gift...
Not to undermine the Professor here, but with LoTR, or the Sil, I did not get a feeling like this. That in itself is not a detraction from the novels. Tolkien's work is glorious... there, I feel (Especially the Sil) as if Im beholding some grand and sublime epic. Something overwhelming and almost Divine, but something that commands a type of respect almost attributed to things religious. The art is there, the language is beautiful, but it is more the language of a marvelous, larger-than-life tale... hard to explain... it is almost (I apoligize here if anyone finds this blasphemous, it is not meant at all in such a way) as if Tolkien's strong Christianity and inherent Christian morality translates itself into the feel of the book. Whereas I have high respect for the Faith of Christianity, it has a rather solemn great splendor to it... something that makes one behold things in awe.
Kay is more...Pagan?(I dont know what GGK's personal faith is, what Im saying here is the way I perceive the writing and the way it speaks to me.) For lack of a better word I will here use that which defines my chosen path...a path that is very powerful but in a more tangible and inclusive way of things human than Christianity. A sensual way of gripping you... and no Im not merely referring to Kay's expertly, deeply and extremely tastefully written scenes of sexual passion (which arealways meant to show or elucidate some greater depth...of characters, or setting, or theme...) as opposed to Tolkien's virtually complete avoidance of the subject... though that is a part of it...
Whereas reading The Professor is almost like a powerful, traditional Christmas Eve with close family (this is a huge thing for Polish people... I have nothing else non-ethnic to compare it to...), reading Kay is like having a luxurious feast of an assortment of fine vintage wines, the most savoury naturally aged cheeses, and small crackers with bits of gold caviar....
Oh dear, I hope I wont get the Philosophy people on my back for this, jumping between religion, physical passion and gluttony
Not my intention at all... just being clumsy with the explanations and trying to use any metaphor that makes sense to me...
~enchantress
I think your allusion to wine is perfect Enchie. Even to food, yes. There is something very sensual about food. Reading Kay is rather like drinking fine wine, or eating a piece of the most delicate chocolate. You hold it in your mouth, close your eyes and loose yourself within the taste of it. You can shut out everything else, and experience that one sensation, only, it isn't just one sensation. Like some books, there are layers upon layers of delicate differences, that if you slow down, you can percieve. Kay has the ability to bring you so fully within his world, that when his books end, you are left stunned, breathless, and unable to come back.
Pagan, yes, if only because his books are so earthy. Its like the difference between Earth and heaven when you look at Kays books as compared to Tolkien. Kay is that taste of wine on your tongue, the feel of the breeze lifting your air, or water running over your body. He is physical - touch and taste. Very much a lover. Tolkien is music whispering in your ear, a beautiful sunset. As much as you are awed by it, and amazed by its incredible beauty, you can never immerse yourself in it, or discover even the beginnings of its depths. The closest you can come is singing, playing an instrument, painting, or photography. It is beautiful at a distance, but no matter what angle you come at it from, or how hard you try to get close, you never will.
Neither one is better than the other. They can't be. Both are beautiful sensations, without which, your spirit would slowly wither.
Perhaps this is why some people are able to compare Kay to Tolkien. They are two completely opposite masters of the written word.
It is telling though, my way of recovering from the book I finished this evening. First I tried playing my piano, but the melody I sought would not come to me (I improvise - don't actually know how to play anything except that which I write, improvise or Beethoven). Then I went outside and watched the stars. Both only created frustration. I wanted to feel, not see or hear. I ended up going skinny dipping off my dock, then coming back in, and pouring myself a glass of wine. Both actions, very physical and, for me, very sensual.
Aaah, brilliant. Trust it to my fellow GGKers to start a thread like this.
I'm quite a voracious reader. I eat the same way I read. Fast and far from savoring it. It's only recently, however, that I've really learned to appreciate how amazing GOOD food can taste in your mouth, as does a good book captivates you. I've always known that my favorite books have nothing to do with whether or not they're classics or even solely for the story alone. I remember reading Beagle's The Last Unicorn, and despite the simplicity of the story, I felt magic in his work. THAT is what a great fantasy work should have.
Estel, I love what you say about Kay being earthy. He is that, in a sense. I feel that especially in StS (the Pagan world vs. the "Christian" world). He's been called melodramatic quite a few times, but that doesn't detract from his empathy and insight on human frailty, love and sex. Sex especially. Depending on the characters involved and the story, it's a dance, an art, a song. With StS, Kay makes me want to be an artist, to look at the world through the eyes of an artist. To see the world through its myriad of colors and ever shifting light and dark.
From each author's work emanates a sort of feeling. I read Le Guin's Wizard of Earthsea last year, and for weeks after that, I was fascinated by the beauty and the power of what we take for granted. Our names. To have a name, your true name, be yours because it's who you are and not because it was assigned to you.
Marillier's Daughter of the Forest is more about longing and sadness, transcience and fluidity. Beautiful work. Then again, I'm partial to Celtic literature.
Someday, we really should get together, sit by the fire and discuss Kay.
I just love how this is a Kay-centered gathering... lol
Says something about his work doesnt it?
Books for me, like love, are a risky busines... and Im very reluctant in both. For me it is difficult to start a book... Im very choosy in what I pick up, I need good recommendations...
To me, a measure of transference of trust is inherent in letting an author take you on a journey. In life in general I abhor change and find it difficult... and that is probably why I find it hard sometimes to "let go" and release that first apprehension I always have at the beginning of starting something. I need the author to be capable, skilled enough to be trusted so that I dont get the very unpleasant feeling of dissatisfaction at the end of a book. Kay has more than earned that level of trust with me. Furthermore, he has gotten me addicted to his exquisite liteary caresses
Once such a trust is established, it illustrates one of the wonderful things inherent to literature. The sensuality is always there, once trust is mutually established; there are no let downs and disappointments. A well-loved book is an eternal lover that will stay with you forever; something that isnt always true of the real lovers of this world...
Kay by the fire!!!!! Hell yesssss!!!!!!!
Amarie - I know what you are talking about when it comes to being a voracious reader. When I first discovered truly well written books, I would either stay up until I finished a book, or until the sun rose. It was nothing to read a book, perhaps two, in a day (this is also the point when I needed glasses). College really messed that up. I still read more than anyone I knew (basically cause no one read books for fun), but I had to get through my books in a hurry. Its only since I've graduated, that I've learned to slow down, and to enjoy a book. Still, when I am reading an author like Kay, or a book like Ventus, I loose myself. I cannot put the book down till I am finished.
*******spoilers******* in the following discussion
I was reading through these posts this morning, and one thought struck me. We've been discussing the sensuality of reading, especially of Kay. How earthy he is, compared to Tolkien. And what really stood out to me was that, Tolkien seems to be music and sight, while Kay seems to be touch and taste. Yet, look at the titles of Kays books. The Fionavar Tapestry. The Sarantine Mosaic. A Song for Arbonne. The look at the subject of Tigana - a sorcerer who takes away all memory of a country. The sound of the name of the country cannot be heard by anyway, yet, one of the most powerful aspects of the story is music. In all of these books, Kay is discussing the very UNearthy aspects which we attribute to Tolkien. The "heavenly" aspects. Sound, sight - music, art.
Perhaps what makes Kay so earthy, so physical - what makes his works our lovers when we read - is that he takes the heavenly, he takes the intricate layers of a sunset, of a Beethoven symphony, and he brings us into them. With his words, we are given the ability to feel colors, and to taste sound. The spiritual world around us us made physical so that we can experience it. So that we can, in essence, make love to it. Just as the physical act of making love can bring a person to a spiritual level, so can certain works bring the spiritual to a physical level.
Isn't that the point of art? Whether words on a page, or a perfect chef made dinner, a physical to spiritual experience. A painting on a wall, or the perfect notes of a single voice echoing song, bringing the spiritual to a physical level. So maybe its not just books that make you feel like the world has made love to you. And perhaps its that spiritual to physical experience, that gives that sexy feeling.
In Tolkiens defense though, he does achieve this feeling as well. I must say, the fist time I read the quote that I have in my sig, I got the feeling that Kay gives me. I all out cried, and ever since then, Elbereth has been my favorite of all Tolkiens characters. For me, she embodies Grace.
On a side note, the melody that I was looking for on the piano last night came to me today. It was worth the wait, and I have succeeded in beginning to write a new song. Taking the ecstasy I felt last night when I finished that book, and giving it a voice.
Can I join this conversation and sit by the virtual fire to talk about ... oh yeah, GKK... please? *pouts* SO okay I didn't make it to getting the book I wanted to join the reading group and the reason is that while digging amongst my boxes of books I found StS... not even cracked open !!!!! WHAT a sin.
Estel, like Enchie and Amarie ((HUGS)) I am an FT fan all the way, tho read Arbonne... not up to Kays standards I think, but I did enjoy it. Fionavar is my name in other lives on different role plays and gaming modules...More people probably know me as Fiona than Rwhen.
Kay moved me...touched my soft under belly and tickled me, made me drop my jaw in shock at a sensitive subject matter, which hurt me. My feelings were involved as well as my brain. I knew I could touch Fionavar and I wanted to. Can't you "feel" the life in Pendaran? Can't you "smell" Avia? "Hear" the rush of the eltor as they swept through the plains.. "Taste" the bitter cold of Starkahd. "See" the beauty, the pureness of the Lios Alfar or the Pariako?
So much of sensuality is using all the senses..getting involved with your whole body, not just your mind. Like you said Amarie, similar to food...savory, sweet, bitter or sour. Each calls to mind an emotion with it.
Will reply with more later... wonderful thread, Estel...((HUGS))
Wow....
It's been awhile since I read 'Tapestry', but I do in fact recognize the feelings you are talking about here. At first I was reading pretty much all I could by Tolkien, and suddenly my mom arrived with "Fionavar Tapestry". So, at first I was kinda sceptical, but my mom was so enormously enthusiastic about the books (kinda like you all are here...), so, overwhelmed as I was I started reading. And I have to agree. With Tolkien I was amazed with everything, but with GGK, it was like I was there. Like it were my friends taking the journey. I got goosebumps, I cried at certain points (Kevin's sacrifice and Diarmuids' duel primarily). Kay writes in a very emotionally involving way, that just pulls you write in. It's not like a movie, which you just watch. It's like you are actually part of it all.
---SPOILERY---
Rhwen youre completely right with Kay involving the senses on a fundamental level. Infusing his work with smells, tastes, sounds, sights and palpable textures... This is also true of the darker and bloodier side of things. He is not afraid to shock, but he doesnt do it (like so many of the prolific ones of the pulp fantasy fiction genre...)for shock value. He is not afraid to tell it like it is, with gore and destruction in order to bring us to the all too human queasiness and the feeling of being physically appaled. With Kay you feel the droplets of water on your skin when Eilathen spins for Kim, but you also smell the nauseating scent of scorched flesh and hear the haunting eerie song outside the Paraiko's cave-prisons... There is weight and substance to what Kay dishes out on both those fronts... ultimatelly, its just sort of like tweaking opposing ends of the same, deep heartstrings...
"Tigana" sounds quite intriguing to me. I've got something with alternate histories. It's just a sense of familiarity, combined with a new mystical flavour that pulls me right in. But I will look in the library, and see whether they have that. I'm not holding my breath though. They might have it in Dutch, but no way I'm reading translations...
"He is not afraid to shock, but he doesnt do it (like so many of the prolific ones of the pulp fantasy fiction genre...)for shock value. He is not afraid to tell it like it is, with gore and destruction in order to bring us to the all too human queasiness and the feeling of being physically appaled."
I gotta agree. When Kay writes something thatwould turn your stomach, if you were part of the story, it will in fact do just that. The feelings you combine with the characters are very intense. I felt myself hating that dwarf and awed by how Tabor took his curse. The final battle was an emotional masterpiece. It had so many moments, which gave me goosebumps. Ah well...
((HUGS)) everyone.
Btw, I'm not going to swoon over Kay. I'm just going to show my respect. Swooning's not for men..,
I just finished reading Tigana yesterday. I am now officially a GGK fan! I guess I am officially swOOning!
He writes with such fluidity and I was just carried away in the river of his words. GGK really captured the nuances of emotion, thought and action, those little things that are so important for entering into another world so completely. He surprised me often but in such satisfying ways.
I'm not sure how to describe it but I left Tigana feeling strangely complete. A feeling that everything was in the right place, the way it was meant to be. GGK gives meaning to all the pain and joy. He managed to capture the bitter-sweetness of life.
Yes, his words are ethereal and earthy at the same time. He lets you feel the soil itself and then the warmth, the life, the rhythm that beats under it. He describes music and singing in a way that makes you feel you can hear it, and more than that, feel it ripple through your soul. Such great joy and such deep sadness. GGK makes you live, breathe and love the world he creates. A rare talent and a rare experience.
Onwards to the FT series!
Thank you all for introducing me to GGK. Sometimes a swOOning thread can be quite inspirational!
Another Kay fan checking in here! For me, it's still Fionavar, though I have to disagree with those of you who said Arbonne wasn't as good. I felt that way about Tigana. I couldn't stand to have the heroine fall in love with the man who destroyed her world. It was too much like a romance novel. I disliked it so much I gave away my copy! (Yeah, I know, SACRELIGE!!)
What I loved about Arbonne: {SPOILER WARNING!!!)
the sadness of Bertran's love affair, the emptiness of his life, flitting from affair to affair. All the delicious little funny moments...King Daufridi singing back to en Bertran the song Bertran composed about him, complete with the line "craven Daufridi"... Blaise and Rudy both falling for the charms of the treacherous Lucianna Delonghi...Rudy asking en Bertran for employment, saying he would work for the same wage as Blaise, then finding out Blaise is working for free. And that wonderful, climactic scene, in the final battle, when Urte de Miraval and his troops joins the fight, coming to the aid of Bertran and his troops.
I'm a lover of music. Maybe that's why this book was so special to me. Look again at the final paragraph: "But songs were not only for those whou could perform them with artistry...And so Luth lifted his voice without shame, feeling a deep richness a glory in the night as he galloped his horse down the road...under the risen moons and the stars of Arbonne."
There is more after that, and I've left out some of the shorter posts and off topic posts. No more cutting and pasting though - that's enough for one night
So, anyone else want to join the discussion? People read books that engender the same feelings?
This is a discussion where the more people who respond, the better [/quote]
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