b77 whipping boy |
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Joined: Tue 04 Jan , 2005 4:40 pm
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This is the third attempt to have this discussion without it spiraling into off topic insanity. I would have prefered the topic be split, and the off topic stuff removed, but that request has been denied or ignored by all rangers present.
Here are the on topic posts from the second version of the thread, which is somewhere in the bikeracks. Well, actually, I guess only Di's post, and my response were totally on point, but the rest fits and is not hostile, so I have no problem with it here. I imagine it would not have been split off if a ranger had done this.
I would also like to point out that while there is no rule being broken... the open mocking of me in the turf is part of the problem I've noticed below, and is unappreciated.
Holby suggested restarting this thread, with the hope it won't degenerate into pointless bickering. Below is my original post. I have bolded what I consider the meat of the post (although it's here in its entirety) that most people seemed to ignore last time.
There is no point whatsoever to trying to have discussions on this board where people disagree. Minority points of view are attacked, abused, and demeaned to the point that people are uncomfortalbe expressing them.
It should be made clear, thatnot ALL minority points of view are attacked, and not everyone participates in those attacks.
However, it is consistant, which is why I started this thread. To be blunt, I can't post anything without expecting some sort of negative thing being said about me personally. Even if it is JUST ME, I would hope other people would consider this a problem.
ALL attempts to correct this imbalance are met with hostility, anger, and further attacks and demeaning posts.
Even this original post was treated with disdain and "oh, hal's causing trouble again." Is it so wrong to be upset that this continues to happen to me? Is it wrong to want to try to correct that?
The rest of the board is fine. Anything discussing fun stuff, sad stuff, sharing personal life stories, and celebrating good things that happen to friends congregating here are all great and fun.
It would be my suggestion that the symposium be removed permanently from this board, as it is an unmanagable forum for divisiveness and hatred. You want to argue politics or anything else, there are a million other places on the internet to do so.
People seemed to fixate on this, and rather than examine the problem of divisiveness that I was bringing up, claim my idea of removing the symposium was not workable, as most of it is fine. I agree, because most of the time people agree... discussing serious things in one place away from fun stuff makes sense. However, when you bring in people that will not actually discuss ideas, but will only try to "win" an argument, it creates division and hatred. That is what I think needs to go away.
If this board is supposed to be about a bunch of people that like each other's company hanging out and having a good time, it's failing completely.
I cannot even remotely contemplate how people that I have considered friends, have respected, have defended, and have joined together with to form this community, could possibly defend what's going on right now with respect to the abuse, and setting up of presidence for even more extreme abuse.
Fundamentally, what is being argued about right now, is not "how do we all make this place better for anyone that wants to participate." Instead, it is "how nasty can we be and get away with it while pretending to get along with everyone that wants to participate?"
If the board is about mutual respect and everyone getting along... then when some small minority of posters, who have views that are a significant minority, express the sentament that they are being treated badly and unfairly... there should be one response... that response being "how can we help you feel more welcome? How can we make this place a more comfortable place for you to express your minority viewpoint?"
Instead, the only response that is seen is "shut up, and don't give us crap about treating you badly. If you feel uncomfortable, then just ignore the people making you uncomfortable, and don't talk to them, or listen to them, or interact in any threads they might post in that you disagree with." In other words... "your opinion is so far in the minority, that it disrupts the entire board when you express it, so don't."
That's hardly a board built on mutual respect.
It always comes back to this same point for me personally. Since the days when the charter was an issue, when I was accused and convicted of harrassing another poster over stuff I don't even remember... since the board was started to attempt a place not like other places, where you could be yourself, and not fear heavy handed moderation, but also not fear heavy handed personal attacks and abusive rhetoric.
It's all about getting along and having fun... except for those few people who disagree with most of us... we want no part of them, and they only disrupt the rest of us, and any time they bring it up, we will ignore it, and put them down, and shut them up any way we can. If we can't ban them, we'll shun them... put them on ignore, or allow bullies to attack them and do nothing about it. We won't care if they are attacked, but gosh darn it, if they say a word about how we're doing that, we'll accuse them of board wide disruptions, and make sure everyone knows how bad and evil they are for questioning the sanctity of total agreement and the utopia of unanimity of opinion.
The hypocracy of this place disgusts me.
And the realization of that hurts me more deeply than I think any of you can truly understand.
Hal, usually I avoid posting in all threads in which you post. All. If you post in thread I will think twice before I put in one word there again. I did not put you on ignore, but I am tempted to do so and I just ignore you all by myself usually.
So, this is a huge exception and actually even while typing I wonder why I do so.
I admire Holby for giving you the idea of restarting this thread. I have no hope - because you don't want any other opinion, you want people to agree on your way of seeing the world and this board and the problem with.
Now, my way to see the world and this board is very different: yes, this board has a problem: it is you. You are the problem of this bord. Every time something happens with which you happen to disagree, you derail, you whine, you open at leat three threads in different fora and you claim to be the victim. I refuse to be a ranger because of you.
Now, hold this for a personal attack or for one of your famous ad hominem: I don't care! I don't think that you (or also sf, for the record) have any debating problem, but that both of you are unhappy with their lives and have too much time so you spend it here on bullshit and fake arguments, forcing other people (like holby) to play kindergarten. I'm sick of you.
I will not get back into this thread, I do not wish to discuss with you and just kindly ask you not to post too much, and especially not in my threads, because I wish to keep them open.
I'm sorry you feel that way, nin, but as you say, it has nothign to do with this thread, although a good example of what I've been forced to get used to.
Hal, for one second stop and think. Instead of saying "Look at poor me what I have to put up with". Ask yourself instead why someone as basically kind hearted and decent as Nin has given up trying to converse with you.
Do you know ANYONE else that Nin can't get along with?
I posted a big long response and it got eaten.
Ah, well. I will therefore respond to just a few of your points, Hal:
There is no point whatsoever to trying to have discussions on this board where people disagree. Minority points of view are attacked, abused, and demeaned to the point that people are uncomfortalbe expressing them.
If you are in a minority viewpoint, you have a choice: either you defend your minority viewpoint with maturity, without getting defensive about being the minority, or you go somewhere where you are NOT in a minority viewpoint. You have a choice: nobody is holding a gun to your head to post anywhere.
If I am the only Christian posting on a forum where I know my Christian beliefs will be rigorously challenged, I have a choice: either I hold my ground, without becoming all defensive and pissy that I am in a minority, or I leave the kitchen if I can't take the heat.
Good heavens, the Internet is full of communities everywhere that can satisfy our need for online discussion and communication in some way. It's not like the online world only consists of B77 ... there is a multitude of choices out there about how you can spend your online time.
Disagreement is absolutely inevitable at some point on a messageboard. And all messageboards attract some posters who have a combative style. It's not like everyone who argues their viewpoint in a combative manner is automatically your enemy. Vigorous disagreement is not the same as personal attack.
However, it is consistant, which is why I started this thread. To be blunt, I can't post anything without expecting some sort of negative thing being said about me personally. Even if it is JUST ME, I would hope other people would consider this a problem.
It seems to me that the prime problem is your ongoing difficulties with sf. If neither of you are willing to compromise and stop sniping at each other, I fail to see why that should be everybody else's problem. This is a member-moderated board. Nobody else can moderate you or sf except yourselves.
It always comes back to this same point for me personally. Since the days when the charter was an issue, when I was accused and convicted of harrassing another poster over stuff I don't even remember... since the board was started to attempt a place not like other places, where you could be yourself, and not fear heavy handed moderation, but also not fear heavy handed personal attacks and abusive rhetoric.
Well, Hal ... the vicious debacle here of November 2005 convinced me for good that member-moderated boards cannot work when a handful of posters refuse to moderate themselves and indulge in wholesale, vitriolic behaviour. That spiteful chaos drove a ton of posters away, including myself. I've never posted here regularly since that time.
Fortunately, B77 did recover and there is still a nice little online community here.
But I will be very blunt: I prefer traditionally run messageboards, where I know nuisance posters can be banned permanently. I never miss a rude, contentious poster when they've gone. I prefer to spend my online time with friendly people, thank you very much.
Yes, I have known moderators who have abused their powers and made bad decisions. But I also consider posters who refuse to moderate themselves to be equally abusive. As Jnyusa said very wisely here a few days ago, a poster with a keyboard and a permanent grudge is as big a tyrant as a mod with a permanent banning button. I totally agree with her.
I don't have a grudge.
I have a problem that I am attacked when I post. We can go back and forth and hem and haw over what I mean by "attacked."
I don't know what can be done any more. SF will not stop. No one else cares that he won't stop. When he does not stop, other people pile on and say I'M the problem.
There is no way for me to post, becaus SF WILL TRY TO SILENCE ME, and he will have help. If he did nothing, others wouldn't do what he does, because they'd just include me in the conversation, if they don't have me on ignore, of course.
But SF WILL not leave me alone, so maybe it is all a problem between SF and myself. However, it is not a problem with me, because I do not dodge ideas and questions.
I did not want this thread to be about this, I want it to be about the fact that no one does anything, except enable this behavior.
Di, I appreciate your attempts to engage in this discussion, both in the first thread, and in this, I shall try to respond.
I'm not interested in hearing a bunch of people agree with me. I find that nauseating... to see people slap each other on the back all the time, and say, yeah, your right in every post. More of a balance would be nice. But, even being in the minority is fine, even a minority of ONE is fine, if the CONCEPT that this board was founded on, of respecting everyone's point of view, and treating them with respect, is followed, because I have no problem holding my own in a discussion.
What I do have a problem with, is when every idea I put forth, is met with twisting, distortion, and argumetns based at ME, rather than that idea. Why would a post about a percieved abusive atmosphere be met with a string of people saying "oh hals's being hal again, if only he'd shut up or go away, things would be peaceful again..."
The whole idea of discussion of ideas is to expand our own point of view, not to shut down anyone that disagrees. For instance, until this weekend, I did not know that it was a "right" for workers to unionize. I still think THAT is a bad idea, but I didn't know it was a law. So, my understanding is expanded, and I have a whole new area to think about. THAT, is useful, and the info came from SF, not surprisingly.
An interesting side-note that I think people seem to overlook when saying SF and I share the same problems... I have never once claimed SF didn't know what he was talking about with unions. I have never once claimed SF didn't know what he was talking about with schools. EVERY time I make a statement, or state an idea, that SF fundamentally disagrees with, he claims I don't know what I'm talking about, and everyone should ignore me... The difference is, I want SF to use his expertise of unions and schools, to engage in discussions about how those things work, and how they relate to other things. SF just wants me to not state any idea he disagrees with.
The resounding voice from others that don't want to deal with this problem, has been to just IGNORE the person you disagree with.
With all due respect, this is the absolutely wrong way to handle someone who disagrees with you. The only way to solve disagreements, or even peacefully coexist, is to ENGAGE with those people.
Another aside, this is another thing that is extremetly frustrating dealing with SF. I spent most of yesterday where I stated an idea, and he jumped on it, and argued the whole day that I wouldn't state it was a fact or opinion... which he started a thread about today, although I wasn't around to voice my opinion there before it was locked. The point is, he never ONCE engaged in a discussion of the idea he had a problem with. Not once. His only interest was ME.
If we are to engage with people, even people we dislike, respectfully, there would not be this problem. But people don't listen. They don't try and understand (some of they, not everyone) what the other person is saying, they don't try to discuss those IDEAS, they just say "You're wrong, and I'll do everything in my power to make sure everyone KNOWS I think you're wrong, and I will do everything in my power to see that no one else engages in discussing those ideas either."
Most people do not have this problem, because of the point I was trying to make in the first post. They agree. If they agree, there's no point in shutting them down.
Me, being a minority, and one that is disliked by many people here (apparently, from the way I've been talked to recently), I am opened to being a target. And if I am allowed to BE a target, or if anyoen is allowed to be a target, the whole "lets all be happy and have fun mind expanding discussions where we don't fight" concept goes out the door.
Is SF a problem? Sure he is, and that can be proven by the fact that I have virtually no desire to post about unions any more. Oh, I want to say a lot, there's a lot being said in that thread I disagree with, and think is wrong. And I know some people want to engage in discussing those ideas, because when SF isn't around, we get to do some of that. But if he is around, and I post something, then off we go on one of his games, where I'm just trying to stay on topic, and he wants to punish me for stating if something is or isn't a fact or is or isn't an opinion or anything else that is not on the subject I posted.
But is SF the only problem? No, because people let him do that, and that is the problem.
_________________ I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
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