board77

Hi, Teremia! *waves* Can it really be that we and all those lovely other B77ers met in London just under a month ago??? Can’t believe it!!

That quote by George Fox is beautiful.

Here are my reasons for belief …

I am convinced that Jesus is the Messiah of Israel and the Saviour of the World, and I believe that the prophecies in the Hebrew Bible point towards Him.

If I wasn’t a Christian, I think I would still believe in God. Our world at least would seem to point to some kind of intelligent design behind the whole shebang, and I would always believe, I think, that humanity has a spiritual dimension.

If I wasn’t an evangelical Christian, I might well be involved in New Age spirituality, some of which I find attractive (although I am wary of the occult side). I do understand the concerns that New Agers have about issues like the environment and women’s spirituality, and I wish that the Church would address these concerns in an intelligent way.

But, the bedrock of my faith is the Holy Trinity.

I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God and I try to live my life by biblical principles: cultures change but the principles are timeless (it IS important to understand cultural contexts though – much trouble in church history has come about because of people seizing on certain texts and interpreting them out of context and then, even worse, building dubious doctrines on them – e.g. the Dutch Reformed Church’s abominable justification for apartheid in South Africa).

The Bible is a very dangerous book when read in the wrong spirit.

Which is why I believe in the Holy Spirit, the third member of the Trinity; the presence of Jesus in the world, who draws us to Him and enables us to actually be like Him. If we let Him.

I do read the Bible every day – well, most days anyway. I find it a deeply inspiring, beautiful, powerful book and God speaks to me through it. (Is there stuff in the Bible I find problematic? Sure there is. Which is why reading Scripture in context is so important).

I don’t take absolutely everything in the Bible literally - e.g. I don’t think it is necessary for a Christian to believe in a literal six day Creation and there are plenty of evangelicals in the UK who have no problem with evolution, although they would also say they believe God was behind the whole process.

I do believe in the miracles of Jesus … and a whole lotta other stuff which to me is just part and parcel of orthodox mainstream Christianity.

Are doctrines like the Incarnation and the Resurrection huge gnats to swallow? Yup. They are outrageous, in one sense. God become a man? God descending to a human womb and being born like one of us? Get out of town.

But, I believe it. And it is a wonderful story of redemption. What other God would care so much as to come so close to His own?

Do I sometimes have doubts? Yes. Actually I don’t believe there is one thinking Christian on this planet who has NEVER had doubts. Doubts can be a very healthy thing for faith. (Bitterness is another matter – bitterness is a soul-killer).

Which is why I love the Book of Psalms – unlike modern evangelicals, the Hebrew psalmists weren’t inhibited about voicing their doubts or even their anger at the God of Abraham, Isaac and Joseph in the face of injustice and suffering.

I made a commitment to follow Christ when I was 14. My life has been chequered since –whose hasn’t? It helps me immeasurably to know that there is no darkness I face as a human being that Jesus has not faced, and understood, and experienced – and ultimately conquered. Darkness will not have the last word: Light will.

So prayer is a great source of inner strength for me – in times of doubt, darkness, fear, and just plain bewilderment at perplexity and pain it helps me to believe that there is a loving God who is with His people, including me, in all situations. Prayer makes a difference. It doesn’t always change the circumstances but it does help us cope with them.

I’m not always a grateful Christian. I can be as pissy as the next person. I have often ignored God – to my sorrow. Yeah, it’s perfectly possible to attend church faithfully and go through the outward motions and still be far from God inside. Ignoring Him has never done me much good. Since I believe He is the source of all harmony, beauty and joy, it’s crazy for me to do so.

Jean Vanier, the founder of the L’Arche Community, said: ‘There are two ways of being crazy: the world’s way or God’s way.’ I try to choose God’s way of being crazy.

This is the ‘true truth’ that carries me through my life.

Teremia, why did you go to the seder? Was it merely a social occasion to you? Would you have had the same purpose and attitude in attending a ritual of another religion?

Quote:

It may seem rather odd to be scrupulous about, say, not eating legumes or grains during Passover while not believing in God, but in my experience there's quite a subset of Jews doing just that at this time of year.

I'd say it's more than odd. It's seems bizarre to me. Why obey the commandments of a God you don't believe in? It makes no sense (to me).

Quote:

And here I fit in pretty well, since I pray all the time, though I don't seem able to believe in the addressee of prayer.

Can you explain what you mean by 'I pray'? Do you pray audibly, or in your thoughts? You say you don't believe in the addressee of prayer. Does this mean that your prayers are in the nature of wishful thinking? Or if your prayers ARE directed toward some entity or other, then I would say you do believe in that entity, even if you consciously think you don't.

Dear Di -- a month ago almost, yes! And meeting you in RL was the highlight of my trip to London!

I am very moved by your "credo." I appreciate and care about many of the elements of Christianity that you mention. When you came to believe these things -- beyond merely appreciating them or finding them "familiar" -- how did that work? I guess that's my question. On occasion, I have very fervently wished to be able to believe certain things are true (variants of Frelga's vision of God picking us up in His arms and comforting us and offering us snacks!), but have never been able to do so, despite going at times very far in the direction of Trying Hard.


Cerin, I find I can pray without (alas) believing in the literal function of prayer. The wishful thinking would be that there would be something listening. But this never feels like more than wishful thinking to me. I don't think wishing something were true is the same as believing something is true: honestly, if that were the case, then I would (again) be wandering the hills of Oz, or fervently looking forward to future wandering there. But in my heart of hearts, I find grief that these things are not true, mixed with longing that that were not the case.

(I also long for my mother still to be alive. Yet I know she is not. My fervent wish to have her back does not translate into belief that I can actually have her back. And I speak to her in my mind also! [Especially on beautiful days -- I remember how Laura Ingalls used to be her blind sister's eyes, and I try to see the loveliness of the world on my mother's behalf.] So you see, prayer is not a smoking gun for my actually really believing in God. It is perhaps a smoking gun for my actually wishing I could believe in God, which I readily admit.)

I was at the seder because I married into a Jewish family and have many friends who are either Jewish or "mixed-up" . Oh, and also because we were invited by our friends to go! But probably the invitation comes partly because our family, like theirs, is half-Jewish, half-other.

This thread has actually turned into a discussion to which I don't feel I can contribute anymore. But, I just want to answer Sidonzo's question at the beginning of the thread, about how we define a fanatic; I've been thinking about this since I first read her post, but simply haven't had time to come up with an answer earlier.

To me, a fanatic is a "my way, or no way" person. One of their primary goals in life, if not THE primary goal, is to convert everybody else to their pattern of thinking, be it about religious beliefs (including atheism), politics, veganism, or Balrog wings - even by force, if the others don't understand by any other means what and how they should think/act/believe.

So, living according to what you feel is right doesn't make you a fanatic, as long as you accept that, not everybody feels that the same is right for them, and don't try to force your ideas on others.

I'm stepping out of this hornet's nest now.

Rowanberry--

That's a pretty good definition from my point of view. I would add that modern fanaticism also necessarily cheapens a religious belief, turning it into a brand name, essentially, which must be bought to the exclusion of all other competing brands. (mummpizz tuned me into this).

Rowanberry,

What you’ve described is what I consider to be fundamentalism, although in modern usage the terms are almost interchangeable, especially when used in reference to religion. Fanaticism can be innocuous, however. I myself have been a Led Zeppelin fanatic (which, believe me, is much more intense than being a mere fan) since I was about twelve years old, but I don’t care if anyone else likes them or not. A fundamentalist ideology, on the other hand, is one that believes that its inevitable trancendency makes it necessary to squash any other competing ideology that stands in its way.

Led Zeppelin? tinwe, I figured you for a Pink Floyd man.

I, myself, like Billy Idol.............................

Oh, that Whiplash Smile.

Rowanberry,

Yes.

tinwe_linto,

Your post clearly demostrates that you misunderstand your role in this world. It is not up to you to decide to whom your allegiance belongs. It has been revealed to me that you must give up your errant ways and start listening to the true rock of the ages. Give up those licentious erotic devils, abandon that false stairway to heaven, wipe that lemon juice off your leg and start listening to Pink Floyd. Your soul is in danger.

My definition of fanatic:

Someone who is not capable of questioning their own belief.

Cerin, I am one of those people who keeps kosher without actually believing in the religious portrayal of God. The reason is simple and not at all bizarre. For me, observance is way of disciplining myself and reminding myself that I myself am not the creator of this world, nor its center nor its purpose. I have ritualized my values, and chosen to do that with the ritual followed by some of my ancestors. I'm against unbridled materialism, undisciplined self-centeredness, thoughtless consumption of whatever pleases me regardless of the consequences to others, and kashrut is my way of elevating my use of the world to mindful, disciplined use with a spiritual vector.

I do not see that belief in God is in any way necessary for moral behavior, and sometimes a great impediment to it. Sanctification is, to my thinking, much more a matter of attitude and habit than a matter of belief in God.

Jn

Idylle,

Me? Me? Jeez, Vison listens to Billy Idol for pete’s sake.

Wait a second.

Idol. Idylle. Is there something going on here?

Actually, I do like Pink Floyd very much. I have fond memories of them from my youth, or I would if I could remember those parts of my youth. But fanatic? No. Led Zeppelin? Yes. Absolutely.

Jnyusa wrote:

My definition of fanatic:

Someone who is not capable of questioning their own belief.
Jn

Yep, that pretty much describes it. I have bootleg Zeppelin albums that are so poorly recorded you can hardly stand to listen to them, but to me they are treasures. Without question.

My apologies for osgiliating this fine thread. Carry on.

And why shouldn't Vison listen to Billy Idol?

I actually DO like Billy Idol, tinwe, but I admit that remark was just made to plague you.

I bought a new CD the other day, an album I had on tape: The Source, by Osama Kitajima. How I love it. I'm going to wear it out, I think.

And my son finally returned my Seldom Scene CD, "Baptizing". Hallelujah.

Vison,

You never cease to amaze me. I think we could make a mixed marriage work. Billy Idol and Led Zeppelin are totally incompatible. And the Seldom Scene! Oh, I could just swoon.

Jnyusa,

St. Benedict would be pleased.


tinwe_linto,

I've been listening to an LZ set and a collection of PF for 2 weeks, to my wife's distraction. However, PF is much more of a religious experience to me (keeping this topical).


vison,

Billy Idol. Should this help me to understand you?