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Pippin4242 wrote:

Phew, that was close. Knock that back one year and I'd have had to have gone into a sulk at you.

I know. I was careful in picking an age no-one here could be offended by.

So a week ago you'd have said seventeen?

*~Pips~*

I dunno. I can think of 21 year olds that scare me.

Like me

Guru, I think the best way of taking care of them properly is to love them. No better athmosphere than this. And I think your attitude is a pity and reflects our society where everybody think of himself first. I think it's worth spending 100.000 dollars and more on the future. And I am glad that someone was ready to do so for me.

Now, of course it is scary for me that the word "love" does not enter in your reasons to have or to have not children. If you compare them to loans and credit cards....

I don't have the time now to talk about the why and when of my motherhood... but I want to quote something that my son said once (he was aged 5): I love you to the moon and back. I love you all around the earth. I will still love you when I'm grown-up, and I will still love you when you're dead.

One of the joys of parenthood that did begin in my kids' babyhood for me was seeing my even-tempered, rational husband grow into a tender, unselfconsciously adoring father.

I went back to work half-time when our first son was six weeks old. I worked mornings, and my husband elected to do his postdoctoral lab work in the afternoons and far into the evenings so that we would not need to put our son in day care.

So for more than a year and a half, he had sole care of a baby for five hours a day, five days a week. (I know-- ) I think it gave him a confidence in dealing with all our children that has paid off tremendously.

I know he had doubts beforehand, though we'd always planned to have children. Now he can't imagine any other life.

My 3 kids are absolutely the best thing I have ever done. It never occured to me that I wouldn't know what to do, or that I would "break them" or somehow not be able to take care of them. I just reveled in their existence and figured that whatever mistakes I made would work themselves out.

After my horrendously painful divorce, it became clear that the reason I had married the guy in the first place was so that these 3 kids could come into being.

Now they are all almost grown (Adam - 21, Hannah - 18 and Luke - almost 17) and I added another daughter to the mix when I became Charlotte's (16) legal guardian 4 years ago. And I feel like we're a great family - honest and loving with sense of what's important. And we laugh alot together.

(When Hannah was in second grade, she had to make sentences out of her spelling words and one of the words was "unusual." Her sentence read: "My mother is very unusual." I figured I was doing something right. )

Nin wrote:

but I want to quote something that my son said once (he was aged 5): I love you to the moon and back. I love you all around the earth. I will still love you when I'm grown-up, and I will still love you when you're dead.

Nin, awww! I think you put your finger on it. The most wonderful thing about having small kids is the boundless love they give you. Some people keep pets and soak in a dog's unconditional affection, but a child's love is not only unconditional, it is human, intelligent, and fearless.

When Lufu was about 18 months old, I twisted my ankle so that it did not hold any weight at all. I would slide down the stairs on my bum and scoot around in an office chair downstairs. So there I was, doing bump-bump-bump down the steps, and didn't even realize that my chair was in the middle of the living room. But my son, who had only seen me do it once, toddled over to the chair and pushed it right to the bottom of the steps for me.

Prim wrote:

One of the joys of parenthood that did begin in my kids' babyhood for me was seeing my even-tempered, rational husband grow into a tender, unselfconsciously adoring father.

ITA

Frelga, how cute! They really do understand more than they can express.

When my daughter was about that same age, I was trying to get all the kids out the door to rush off somewhere and at the last minute couldn't find my shoes. I was stamping around bemoaning my fate when my daughter tugged at my pantsleg. I looked down--and she was standing there smiling and holding up my missing shoes.

I love kids. Don't have any myself, but as a student teacher and someone around little kids freqently, I hear some funny things. This is somewhat off topic, but as you were talking about things kids say, I wanted to post it.


I'm student teaching in a first grade class. During reading, we read a story about friends and the things friends do like talking, giggling, playing games like those sack races, etc. After finishing, one of the questions I asked was to give me examples of things that friends do together.

One of my girls responded with, "Friends jump in the sack together."

Definitely a moment where I had to try to hold back my laughter.

I find it so hard to fathom not loving kids and all the cute things that they say and do!

Hmm, love...that's a tough one. Maybe I can blame my upbringing for that...love towards my parents doesn't really exist...well, maybe, but not in such terms...And Love is the reason I am in a relationship where children are impossible outside of adoption. I don't Want to want to have kids...because that means losing forever something I treasure. However, my friend, I would be interested to hear a further explenation...since I'm curious. Like I said...familial love is something I'm not exactly familier with.

And about the financial aspect...yep, I'm selfish...I'm a twenty two (almost twenty three)...and my sister still expects me to change my mind...I wouldn't say it's too terrible for me to say that right now I'd rather spend money on myself...and as I mentioned in my second post that I'd rather get to a point where I won't feel bad because I'm not doing a good job providing for a child...I saw too much of that coming up. I don't want my kid feeling embarrassed by me, the way I was about my parents far too often. So I'm willing to live my life for myself, while I finish growing up, and when I'm older, I may bring children into this world when I'm ready.

Pretty much, for right now, I don't have a reason to have children...and plenty of reasons not to.

I guess that's the question I'm really curious about...Before having kids, what are the reasons people want them...I hope Nin comes back 'cause I'm sure she's got one

jewelsong wrote:

My 3 kids are absolutely the best thing I have ever done. It never occured to me that I wouldn't know what to do, or that I would "break them" or somehow not be able to take care of them. I just reveled in their existence and figured that whatever mistakes I made would work themselves out.

After my horrendously painful divorce, it became clear that the reason I had married the guy in the first place was so that these 3 kids could come into being.

Now they are all almost grown (Adam - 21, Hannah - 18 and Luke - almost 17) and I added another daughter to the mix when I became Charlotte's (16) legal guardian 4 years ago. And I feel like we're a great family - honest and loving with sense of what's important. And we laugh alot together.

(When Hannah was in second grade, she had to make sentences out of her spelling words and one of the words was "unusual." Her sentence read: "My mother is very unusual." I figured I was doing something right. )

jewel -

You have said it better than I could. My three children are my pride and joy, even when I no longer see eye to eye with the older two (ages nineteen and sixteen respectively.) For all that has happened in our lives, we have stuck together and we have made it, and I know that if nothing else, that my kids have learned about family, and caring, and that even though bad things happen, we all can move past it.

As far as my youngest, just age eight, when I had him I was never thinking about having more children (he was a true OOPS), but, he has been the one I have most appreciated, occuring as he did eleven years after the first. When you are a young stressed out parent in your mid twenties, you do a good job, but you do not have a true comfort level yet, you do what you think you are supposed to be doing, and often just forget to enjoy the whole process.

My youngest just let me appreciate a kid being a kid, and there was no stress, nor worry, although he has been his own little handful (for example, learning how to unlock doors and let himself outside when he was a mere two, or following the cat one day away from the house for about three blocks...

I cannot imagine my life without any of them. Seriously. For those of you who do not have kids, it is not something that can be explained at all. It is not so much that you feel an obligation, they just "grow on you" in a way that no other person can, even your spouse or parents. They are your little creations, and you always will feel that, no matter what they do.

This thread is a fascinating read, thanks for starting it Areanor.
Its especially interesting to me because well, Ive sort of always been of the persuasion that I didnt want children. And now being almost 23 Im still sort of of that persuasion...

The first thing I think of is the responsibility, like Eru. I still have a lot of my life to live out and do stuff before (if ever) I can seem myself totally focusing on another individual. I think its a huge responsibility and I preffer not to take it lightly, so if it is in my power to decide, I like to keep the baby possibilities far away...

I also shrink away from holding other people's small ones most of the time...

Going to be painfully honest here...

Im not good with little kids. I dont like babies, they frazzle my nerves and I get really agitated and frustrated when they cry endlessly and I cant do anything to stop it (I remember babysitting my baby cousin few years ago and calling my aunt in desperation after he just wouldnt stop crying whatever I did). I have a lot of patience for animals and for seniors (I work with the elderly, some with mental and cognitive and/or physical problems), but somehow I just dont do well with babies. I find puppies and animals more appealing in the "cute" department than babies... always have... maybe that makes me sound cold and bitchy or something

I like older children, 6 years olds or so, when you can reason with them, and talk to them and have them talk to you. They say some of the most amazing things and theres a great joy in teaching them things. I love to witness their minds and hearts developing...

I dont really feel anything that strongly motivates me to have kids any time soon... I also have a sort of phobic view of pregnancies. I dont think I would deal well with that. The amount your body changes, and the fact that another human being is growing inside you just... scares me in some way. I know most people think its beautiful and yes, Im awed by it too, in other people, but I feel no appeal for myself.

I could see myself considering adopting one day if I was well off... I think adoption is a great thing.. and there are so many unwanted children all over the world...

Like Leoba, Im with an older partner who does feel very favourably about the children idea, so this is an issue for us...
I cant predict the future and maybe I will change my views on this... or maybe I wont...there is no telling yet. I do understand how this attitude frustrates and worries my partner... but deciding to have a child cannot be a compromise in someone's favour in my opinion.

Oh... all the love in this thread.

Guru, no I can not really explain that. I was always sure I would have children. I have never questionned that - when, with whom and how much were secondary questions. It has always seemed like an evidence for me. It's human to have children. Being a living human being seems a reason enough for me.

The love that I have for my children is something completely different than the love for my husband. It is not a love chosen or grown... it is like a part of myself. Something very different.

Of course, I also work with children. I tried to do another job, impossible for me. I love teaching. Even with my students, you have some of those key-moments when you feel that you can really create something in a person, make them think, evolve, and that every of those little steps is one which might in the long run make humanity better. I have somewhere behind my cynic heart a deep faith in humanity... and the hope that humanity can change and that every person can make the world beautiful.

What is so fascination about rising children (mine are still small 5 and soon 7), is that you see how a human soul grows, you see the questions arise in their minds, you can build those minds, they can learn... my elder will ask me if a chewing-gum goes into the recycling bin, if zero and ifinite are the same... he will remind me not to take the car, because it breaks the sky....

Children give you something back of the magic of your own childhood, when you could fly with Peter Pan and be a pirate, or dream of being an astronaut and did not know what taxes were....

I see my children grow and they give me faith in humanity. My students do the same sometimes.

Yes, the first years were exhausting. I hate them sometimes, when they ask for the forthieth time for a glass of water, for yet another bed-time story, I call them my orcs... and I know why . But in the end, when nothing remains, they are still there. Having children is not easy. It's not all joy, it's difficult and means lack of sleep, sometimes of initimity, change in your couple, responsibility, boring days, lack of conversation for a few years.... and laughter, happiness, love and love and love.

My family was not a very loving one, maybe my mother, but my parent's marriage was such a disaster, that there was not much space left for love... I have always known that I was not supposed to be born, or as my father put it so distinctly: I was my born, because my mother was too stupid to count. But despite this, for me having children was always an evidence. I never needed a reason.

What a great topic.

I was thirty-six when I had my first child, but had been married for nearly seventeen years. For fifteen of those years, my husband and I barely gave any thought to making babies. I was finishing off my Masters in Education, we bought land and built a house, we worked, we quit our jobs and sold our house, we travelled, we bought a run-down cottage and began to renovate, we got new jobs, we worked more, we travelled more................and then one day, sitting in a little beachside cafe in Mexico, we looked at each other and said, "Well, now what?????"

I can honestly say that I never had any "yearning" to have a baby, and was always quite puzzled with some of my friends and colleagues going on about their "need" and "drive" to procreate. For me, it was a far more practical matter. I was thirty-four, the ticking of the biological clock was getting louder, I knew I was good with kids after a long and varied teaching career, and quite simply I, (along with my husband, of course) was ready for a new adventure (that is honestly how I viewed it, and still do to this day).

When nearly a year had gone by with no "results", we applied for overseas adoption, and after jumping through all the required hoops, we were "okayed" to begin the process of finding two younger siblings in Columbia that could be adopted. It wasn't really important to us to have a "new" baby. As a matter of fact, it seemed more right somehow to take on a couple of little guys that had been orphaned or abandoned. We never actually reached the stage of looking at individual cases, because two weeks after we got the go-ahead to begin the adoption process, I found out I was pregnant.

We had three children, but our second daughter died when she was six weeks old; my greatest sorrow, my most precious, intimate, and intense memories. It is beyond any words to describe that instant of pure and absolute love I felt at the birth of my children, of immediately recognizing their individuality, the miracle of their uniqueness. I had always thought that I would see my kids as extensions of myself and their father, but from the first moment I held them, I realized that they were distinctly and wondrously "themselves".

I think that continues to be my greatest wonder as my daughter and son get older. To see these two unique individuals growing and developing into people so different, and yet so closely connected, to me and my husband. It truly is like being inside a tale that I have never read before: often beyond my ability to foresee a twist in the plot, a surprising development for a character; often so irritating or sad or complex that I just want to put it down for a while and read something "lighter"; always, always compelling enough to draw me back to see what happens next.

Athrabeth wrote:

We had three children, but our second daughter died when she was six weeks old; my greatest sorrow, my most precious, intimate, and intense memories. It is beyond any words to describe that instant of pure and absolute love I felt at the birth of my children, of immediately recognizing their individuality, the miracle of their uniqueness. I had always thought that I would see my kids as extensions of myself and their father, but from the first moment I held them, I realized that they were distinctly and wondrously "themselves".

Athrabeth, you said this perfectly. I feel a love for my children that is indescribably tender and also incredibly fierce. And my deepest sympathy about the death of your second daughter. I can't imagine anything more painful than losing a child.

enchantress wrote:

I like older children, 6 years olds or so, when you can reason with them, and talk to them and have them talk to you. They say some of the most amazing things and theres a great joy in teaching them things. I love to witness their minds and hearts developing...

I dont really feel anything that strongly motivates me to have kids any time soon... I also have a sort of phobic view of pregnancies. I dont think I would deal well with that. The amount your body changes, and the fact that another human being is growing inside you just... scares me in some way. I know most people think its beautiful and yes, Im awed by it too, in other people, but I feel no appeal for myself.

I had an older friend who felt the same way about babies...however, she knew that she could and would enjoy having children once they got past that stage and you could "reason with them and talk to them." She went ahead and had 2 kids and just - well, "got through" the baby years. She raised 2 fine, loving young people who never knew how much their mother suffered during their "poopy diaper years."

I have to say that I loved being pregnant. I was fortunate in having 3 easy pregnancies; I felt well the entire time. My deliveries were not a piece of cake, but once the baby was born, that didn't matter. I breast-fed all 3 of my kids and loved that part of it - easy, natural and pleasurable. And I had no trouble adjusting to it.

Not everyone has a great, burning desire to have a child. Some people just kind of "fall into it" or go ahead because their partner wants it so much. Most people end up liking the kid when it finally comes!

Make no mistake. Having a kid changes everything. Permanently. Forever. I get concerned when I hear some younger mothers talking blithely about "after the baby comes" as if things are somehow going to "go back to normal" and the birth is basically the end of it. Things never "go back to normal."

I totally respect anyone's decision not to have children. However, I also feel that people who don't are missing out on something unexplainably precious.

I'm not really sure how to answer the question honestly. My wife and I decided after a year or two of marriage to just "stop being careful". We didn't actively try, or aim for fertile times etc, we just left it in the lap of the gods. Our first daughter was concieved practically immediately and we were simply thrust into the position of having to get used to the idea, and quick. Both our second and the latest arrival were "accidents"! I often joke that there's an unfair amount of fertiility in our marriage when practically every unprotected act produced a baby, while others find getting pregnant such a struggle. Our kids are 6, 3 and 2 days old

What I was completely unprepared for was not the sleepless nights or the lack of freedom (although that was true also) instead it was the absolute and unconditional love. I love my parents, my brothers and sister, my wife, but not like I love my kids. It's just a completely different kind of love. I would give my life in an instant for my kids. I went cold when I read of Ath's loss. There are simply no words. None. Nobody should endure that loss. I know without doubt that I would be willing to kill or die to protect my kids. Nobody else in my life has ever created that intensity of feeling in me. That's not to say that I don't love my wife. Of course I do, but it's a more rational love, between two equals. My kids have an absolute trust in me that nobody else will ever have. No matter what happens, Dad will make it better, and that is such an awesome responsibility that I have to live up to it. I see in my kids eyes the sort of person I would love to be. I will spend my life trying to be worthy of that trust.

To paraphrase "As Good as it Gets", they make me want to be a better person.

Alatar

For me I suppose the question would have to be rephrased as "why do we decide not to have babies." My partner and I have discussed the possibility of bringing children into our family (most likely through adoption, not procreation), once our lives settled down enough for us to feel like we could make the committment. However, 20 years later it almost seems like we have hurtled into our forties with no real opportunity to reevaluate that as a priority. Between my transition from confused student from Long Island to vagabound Deadhead to reluctant attorney, and her journey from a Harvard-educated government consultant from rural Maine to vagabound Deadhead to high-powered environmental planner and watershed restoration specialist, on top of an increasingly deep dedication to learning, teaching and performing a dying art (particularly on her part), there literally has not been time.

I would never say never, but the likelihood grows ever smaller (she is 3 years older then I am). And yes, that does make me a little sad, particularly when I read the beautiful things that people have had to say here. But we all have different roles to play in this wide, whacky world we live in.

Voronwe_the_Faithful wrote:

. However, 20 years later it almost seems like we have hurtled into our forties with no real opportunity to reevaluate that as a priority....I would never say never...

Heh. Don't say "never." My best friend from childhood, literally the "boy next door" is my age. He reached his late 40s unmarried and childless. His two siblings (for various reasons) were never going to have children and his parents had basically resigned themselves to never having grandchildren. And it was all good...

2 years ago, my friend's long-time girlfriend discovers that, in spite of diligent use of birth control, she is preggers. She was 48 years old at the time. It was her first pregnancy and the doctors didn't know what to tell her; they don't even have statistics for first pregnancy past the age of 45. After numerous tests, which all were inconclusive, they decide to go ahead with the pregnancy. They now have a perfect and beautiful little boy who looks exactly like my friend. Both were a bit shell-shocked (and a little bemused) at becoming parents so unexpectedly and so late in life, but they are handling with aplomb and good humor. And my friends parents? Who were perfectly fine with not having grandchildren? They are ecstatic. You'd think they invented grandchildren.

You just never know what life will bring...or how.

Personally, I'm scared stiff of having children. People look at me weird when I say that, because I'm married and apparently the only reason to get married is to have kids. But I'm truly terrified.

I'm even scared of other people's children. Babies seem to have a "cry around this person" radar for me, because they all do. I'm not good meeting any sort of new person, but kids are worst - I prefer adults any day. I helped in a class of third graders for the whole year, and it took me two months to warm up to them. Several of them did get quite attached for a while, but it took time.

I've got a bad history with my own parents, so that's probably part of it. My greatest fear is to be like them, and if I have kids, it would be easier to be like them. Yet, I hear that I would be missing so much, and it almost seems a duty to have children. I'm just not sure what to do. Right now I just want to spend time with my husband - that's why I married him, after all.

Is there something wrong with me?