board77

Wait, wait . . . .



There.

Aww crap.. can't I just go one night without having to get sappy?

*gives in*

Good lord guys. I thought from the advancement of pages that Wilko had shown up to explain what the hell was going on.

I note that his permissions have indeed been changed, so that now only the Turf and Invites are restricted.

Berhael wrote:

After we're finished with the arbitration process and this particular problem, I'm going to ask the admins to de-admin me and I'm going to disappear from the boards for some time. My health is suffering from all this messageboard-related crap and I really, really need to stand back from all this before it makes me even more sick.

I know very much what you mean Berhael. It’s been running me down too over the past 6 months. I have to be very strict about my online time and very rarely log on after the evening meal. It’s the only way I can ensure sleep. And even so, my brain has been spinning round these past few nights.

Lidless wrote:

We have one rule here - respect one another. He has shown nothing but distain for this rule, as evidenced by his actions and threats.

I agree with this point, [real name deleted]. Respect has been a key to this place from the beginning. Ideally that respect should extend to everyone, be they a member here or not though. The fact that there are posts in the Turf that some of us may be ashamed off illustrates that we all have some way to go to meet our own standards.

Ethel wrote:

If this were an open board, this wouldn't even be an issue. There would be other problems, of course, ones which we are trying to find solutions for in the Jury Room.

Gimli wrote:

I doubt it will happen V. If you havent noticed.. nobody wants to discuss it because the longer they avoid it, the longer it stays closed....

Prim is right, that this thread, in the midst of many heated posts, is not the right place to ask that question. We have said over and over that the overall goal is to open eventually and I certainly stand by that. But I don’t want to see us open as a knee-jerk reaction to prove a point. We do it when we’re ready for our own reasons, not in response to the crap that kicks off with fortnightly regularity. TORC has ruled B77 too long.


Please, I beg you. Can we stop exacerbating our stresses with sniping at one another and concentrate on sorting things out in a calm manner?

Ranger edit, 07 Nov 05

Quote:

The fact that there are posts in the Turf that some of us may be ashamed off illustrates that we all have some way to go to meet our own standards.

*calmly asks* Are you sure about that? Personally I don't regret expressing my honest anger/disappointment with events or people at any time. Don't we all bitch about things (in private!) to some degree or another?

I have more or less read the entire thread.... (and how do you want me to read the jury room with all this going on???)

For Wilko: I would give him full access back, with the explicit remark to read this thread and to answer our concerns in it. We want to be solid? Let's face adversity in dignity...

Ethel i'm fully with you - and maby, only maybe my explanation can give you some hope... I voted stay close in the last poll, because I want this board to work, to function and to become my home. Yet, I struggle every day with its closed nature.... and I think that the closed nature and the invite process mean as much harm as protection, if not more... I don't feel comfortable with it. But to open we need a structure. Once it is done, I want the boards open. Absolutely. And I think many want, although I also think this is not the right place to discuss, I really want you to know it - because I understand someone needs to be assured about it, because I would need it so much and find it so hard to invest time on this board without being sure of its future.

All this said, I should better head to the convention.

When I logged on this morning I was hoping to find a post by Wilko, but instead I read post after post of people with hurt feelings, confused people, disillusioned people. It made me sad beyond words.
To balance that I must also say there were a few posts e.g. by Primula and Jny that made me smile again…. a little bit.

We need to hear from Wilko! Not quarrel amongst ourselves. The last time I see him having posted is on the 16Mar.

And you know, the longer I think about it the clearer it becomes. Where does this really all centre around? [non-member screen names deleted]This is not going to go away for as long as there is no communication between them and those of us caught up somehow in it all. I know Berhael tried her utmost and for that I'm forever grateful to you and you have my highest respect. Yet from the way I read/understand your post, it seems it was pretty much a one-way conversation with accusations flying and you trying your very best to diffuse the situation. That's not real communication however. It's a beginning yes, and for you Berhael having had the stamina and care to enter into this is I pull my hat off to you .

But friends, let's face it, unless both [non-member screen names deleted]are willing to discuss all this openly and can be allowed to do so in a manner that is comfortable to all involved we're not really going to go anywhere with this problem. How can this take place? Well, I think you can see where I'm heading with this though I'm not going to spell it out. I have no right to impose anything on those directly affected in this whole and complicated issue. I'm but an 'outsider'.

I want nothing better than one day being able to throw the doors open Ethel. I think I've said so many, many times. But only once we have a better structure in place. Doing so now would be suicide. Hence I'm pouring all my energy into the constitutional panel and can only urge *anyone* to do so as well, be it the panel members through investing their energy and thought into it or be it the membership at large to read up and input via PM. Above all though, patience please. Rome was not built in a single day and not by only a handful of people.

And now I'll shut up

Ranger edit, 08 Nov 05

______________
Resident witch

I've always assumed that the boards would open up once we have a structure sorted out and given it a few months to see how it works.
Our first estimates for opening were between autumn 2005/early 2006, which I think is reasonable.

Eru wrote:

truehobbit wrote:

Excuse me? What second chance? What had gone wrong the first time? I don't even understand where you're coming from, here. Where's that judgemental tone coming from?

Have you forgotten the whole fracas over him threatening to go to the TORC admins when he found out people had edited Farawen's parody into one of their old posts? This recent threat is his second threat.

I agree with Imp on this:

Imp wrote:

I've read here of the first 'threat' he made to alert TORC mods/admins that some buried posts had been changed in an inappropriate ways.

I consider that a completely upfront declaration of what he felt was the honourable thing do to if those posts were not edited out - and when an alternative course of action was suggested to him that he felt was possible (ie he edited them out himself, I believe?) he took it. Letting those posts stand must have felt like a dishonourable thing to do to him, something he could not stand aside for without seeming to condone it.

I feel he is being ascribed the worst motives without evidence.

The problem about the edited posts wasn't handled in the best way, the tone was less polite than it should have been, but wilko agreed that he had been upset and could have been more polite and he has apologised.

On the problem at hand, I also agree with Imp and Ber - from all we know, people here have copied and pasted stuff before, which has disappointed us, but has never caused us to take any action. So now someone tells us beforehand of intending to copy and paste, rather than just doing it in secret, we feel so much more threatened? Would be prefer being lied to, then?

Just one more word on my contested T[non-member screen name deleted]-comment (seems like I haven't been speaking English once again): the comparison of course stemmed from the fact that people called for a ban when there was no offense to warrant it, just because they were upset at the time. That's the [non-member screen name deleted]-like thing to do.
Jny is of course right that all the admin reactions, and the fact that most people here got back to cool reason withing hours, is quite different from the situation on TORC, but I had thought that I had never implied any other similarity than the one stated above.
And, Eru, I thought it was obvious that the reason I'm pleased to see others make the same connection is only because it shows I'm not totally unnatural in thinking that way.
It would really be helpful if people didn't post in anger so much. I know that includes me, I've often been guilty of that, so maybe I shouldn't be the one to ask us all to be more reasonable, but I really think most of the mess here stems from people not reading carefully enough and replying on a gut reaction.

Edited to add:

Imp wrote:

except for Ber who is the only one informed enough to speak on this. (Or was Truehobbit also privy to some of the discussion?)

No, I wasn't there for any of the discussion. Ber only told me the next day what I mentioned in my post, and I said maybe I should try talking to wilko, too. I did try to bring the subject up, but as I said, I totally suck at real-life dialogue, I just can't formulate thoughts when I have to say them out loud at the same time. I basically just tried to say that, IMO, letting [non-member screen name deleted] see what we are saying would only hurt all parties and solve no problems at all.

Ranger edit, 08 Nov 05

I too want these boards open at some point. It's critical for its survival.

However, its a closed board right now people have been posting as such. It is this openness which has helped the board grow and provide the foundation for it. Members have been invited who can help develop the board and built on that foundation.

Whilst this is a closed board, it should be treated as that - closed.

wilko has done anything but that so far. He hasn't treated it as closed, he has shown no interest in helping to move it forward. All he has done is to stomp his feet and putting his personal relationship with [non-member screen name deleted] ahead of the other 130 posters here.

When someone is invited here, it is not a right - it is a gift that comes with responsibility. He doesn't have that responsibility. So far, he doesn't understand what B77 is about. Not one whit.

Remember we were sent a reminder email about whether we wanted to edit our home addresses? It's the same going from a closed board to an open one. People will be asked to check their posts to see if they want to edit anything out. This of course presumes that what is written here so far is confidential. It is.

Ranger edit, 08 Nov 05

Well...I can't say I can be honestly outraged at Wilko's behaviour...because [non-member screen name deleted] has been dragged through the mud a lot on this board. Wilko was hurt. He didn't choose the best way to act on it but that's life. He could have said "I don't want to post on here because people are saying rude things about my friend, and no one seems to mind." But he wanted to act in a different way- one of many. All are explained by his anger. Not all are okay for board77.

I don't see anything wrong with the steps that were taken...because Wilko hasn't been banned without a chance to appeal, explain, talk to us...that's the difference...I think many of us still see a ban like it is at TORC- an action that you have no influence on. But here, it's not hidden or final or anything like that. Leoba did well to restrict his access- she saw a very serious threat and a problem. But she didn't make a final decision- we're all talking, and Wilko can, too. This is the best part of b77- because a poster can always count on their rights to speak up being respected, they don't have to panic when an admin takes action, even when it's a ban. No one can get mislaid or forgotten with our system.

So yes, we have to discuss whether Wilko needs to be banned, or his viewing rights restricted. But until he shows up and starts talking to us, we can't do much more than put it to a vote.


As to opening the board. I don't think it's the minority who wants this. I want it to be open. I don't know most of the people who post here now! It's as good as open. See, when I have an IM convo with someone I might give in to emotions and call a third person bad names, step away from the rational cause of my anger and just indulge in saying nasty things. I can't say I've never done it here- yeah, I have. I tried not to but I'm only human.
However.
I think it's very important that we establish a clear rule about insulting people. We know the difference between saying 'This person did me wrong' and saying 'This person is a fat cow'. Yes, it's nice to have a place where we can say whatever we like, but b77 is not a gathering of people who all share the exact same opinions. [non-member screen name deleted] isn't here- if you say nasty things about her, it doesn't hurt her. But it does hurt Wilko. And not just Wilko.
B77 is not a chat window. It was never meant to be. So while we discuss how to deal with a person who threatens to reveal things said about their friend, let's also try and look at the root of the problem. We claim to be mature and strive towards honesty and good will, and yet we indulge in berating people we don't like. Let's be the better board, not just in procedure but also in how we behave.

What did you guys say about the moot? Well, there is also a 'persona non grata' atmosphere here at board77. I want that gone. A simple disagreement with someone's presence is enough- there is no need to make it a part of the board that can't be left out of the description.

Ranger edit, 08 Nov 05

The thing is, I totally understand where Wilko's coming from. [non-member screen name deleted] is his friend, he feels she's under attack from/treated unfairly by/hurt by/misunderstood by b77, and he wants to stand by her. He thinks he helps her by divulge to her what's being said about her on this messageboard, and when he told Ber he'd pass on info to [non-member screen name deleted] it was his loyalty speaking.

We should have considered this when we were discussing his invite. As it is, we've obviously made a mistake in inviting him at this point in time and we shall have to deal with it.

I agree with those who say that his actions so far don't warrant a ban. BUT. I also consider his threat to pass on info a serious violation of the Guidelines of Conduct.

I believe we should ask him if he's interested in being part of the community that b77 is at this point, if he's willing to abide by the rules and avail himself of the advantages and disadvantages that come with posting on b77 as it is now, as opposed to just being here to collect info for people who are not members of this messageboard.

If he says no I believe we can all agree he shouldn't be here.

But that's not our choice to make. Let him decide.

Ranger edit, 08 Nov 05

And let me also add that I'm a bit puzzled as to why so many of you are worried that this board will remain a closed board forever. I've been taking for granted that we would open up as soon as we're ready to deal with um, all the negative energy out there?

Farawen wrote:

We should have considered this when we were discussing his invite. As it is, we've obviously made a mistake in inviting him at this point in time and we shall have to deal with it.

I think our bigger mistake was to just go at it like this place would never grow past people we knew would let us rant.

We need to clean up.

Rodia wrote:

Farawen wrote:

We should have considered this when we were discussing his invite. As it is, we've obviously made a mistake in inviting him at this point in time and we shall have to deal with it.

I think our bigger mistake was to just go at it like this place would never grow past people we knew would let us rant.

We need to clean up.

Didn't mean what you thought I meant, Ro. I think it's vital that we invite people who disagree with us. But I also think we should have considered the fact that Wilko's friendship with [non-member screen name deleted] and the loyalty he obviously feels towards her is not something he is willing to put aside for the sake of b77, like others we've invited have been able to.

Ranger edit, 08 Nov 05

Forgot to add:

to Berhael. That was a hell of a thing you did.

Alandriel wrote:

We need to hear from Wilko! Not quarrel amongst ourselves. The last time I see him having posted is on the 16Mar.

Personally, I will be surprised if he comes back.

Farawen wrote:

And let me also add that I'm a bit puzzled as to why so many of you are worried that this board will remain a closed board forever. I've been taking for granted that we would open up as soon as we're ready to deal with um, all the negative energy out there?

That's what I thought too. However, it keeps coming up as a topic in the constitution threads, and there are people participating in them who are opposed to ever opening this board.



Okay, this thread is the wrong place for this discussion. So are the constitution threads. What's the right place?

Farawen wrote:

And let me also add that I'm a bit puzzled as to why so many of you are worried that this board will remain a closed board forever. I've been taking for granted that we would open up as soon as we're ready to deal with um, all the negative energy out there?

I totally agree with Farawen here. I have, and quite vocally, been against opening up the board NOW (tm). But I am firmly of the belief that it will open, when it is ready too.

I hate to point out that the reactions and events if this weekend show that we are not there yet.

When we move to B77.com, we can think about it, and all that was written here on B77 can be locked up for our own personal access until such time as it ceases to be.


I also have to point out that this continious bickering and snapping is going to only be good news from our detractores.

I can only assume that there is (at least) sombody out there now who is snickering to himself over this.

I for one refuse to let myself be drawn into loosing more friends over this. I hope I am not in the minority.

And Ber as much as you need.

That's me your hugging, Din. Wait till I'm finished dammit before it's your turn.

Hugging Ber can be quite addictive.

Having just come back from the moot myself yesterday, I can vouch that although generally enjoyable, the issues surrounding b77 and [non-member screen names deleted] did have an impact on the atmosphere of the moot at times. I think that credit to Ber should be given for flying up to Glasgow with the aim of sorting out the issues surrounding the board and attempting to get her friendship with [non-member screen name deleted] back on track. Credit should also be given to both [non-member screen name deleted] and Ber for taking time on Saturday to go through all the issues at length and try to make things clear, even if the final result was not what either of them would have wanted in regards to being friends again.

I also talked to [non-member screen name deleted] on Saturday night, at length, about it all, and it was made clear to me how genuinely upset she was at both some of the comments that have been made, but also the principle of having comments made about her and her boyfriend that she cannot see and, even more importantly, does not have access to and therefore is denied the right of reply (my words and emphasis, not hers) that those of us invited to this board take for granted

Having finally caught up on most of what precipitated all of this, and what the exact situation is as it stands... I have to agree with [non-member screen name deleted] that maintaining friendships with those on the board that have access to negative comments about her and the [non-member screen name deleted] that she cannot access or respond to, is difficult, no matter how much (in the case of Ber for example) she wants their relationship to be maintained as it has always been. Whatever your thoughts about [non-member screens name deleted], or both together, the fact is that they do come as a package, and any slight on one is going to be perceived as a slight on the other, as many of us who have been in a close relationship would understand. Therefore we cannot think of having one of them here without the other, as those like Ber have understood and have paid the price for trying to resolve the dilemma by trying to (with tactfulness as the intention) pass over it in silence.

Now I know, having finally read the corresponding threads, that a great majority of posters when discussing [non-member screen name deleted] have been very positive about her, but the point is that without transparency, without the right of reply, the fact that most posters have a positive view of [non-member screen name deleted] is beside the point, because until such time as this board becomes an open board or at the very least a read-only board where comments made anywhere other than in mod forums is open for view, then things like this will only continue to happen and get out of hand. We will all respond with varying degrees of sensitivity if we pitched into a similar situations involving ourselves, but one thing is for certain is that none of us would like the circumstances of knowing that some negative things had been said about us, at a site we cannot get an invite to, which has numerous members who we consider to be our friends and who we want to continue to have an open, friendly relationship with in the future. Having this closed aspect of the board is going to lead to distorting the relationships between those who are on the board and those who are not, that is human nature whether we like it or not. I do understand and respect those who have put forth reasons for why they want the board to remain closed for the foreseeable future, but I don’t think that this situation can truly be resolved until such time as the board becomes open and people can at least access what is being said about them and form their own opinions and at least express their response either directly via the board or through emails or IM to board members.

Lidless made the point that such a courtesy was not extended to him in the mods forum at TORC, but I think that a general case can be made for why moderators require an exemption so that they have the room to consider the merits of particular cases and weigh up which alternative courses of action should be taken. At least that is how it is meant to work, and I’m well aware that in practice mods that have formed strong links with particular posters (or particular grudges) are likely to be biased. But I think you have to give the benefit of the doubt to those selected as mods to do their job as fairly and within the spirit of the rules as much as possible. If you are unhappy with those selected as mods, how mods are generally elected, or how you have been treated in any particular case, then of course you are free to leave and set up your own board where the modding establishment can be set up in a manner you see fit, as Lidless and others have indeed done with this board.

Having said all of that, I do think that, over the longer term, the argument for protecting the privacy of conservations by general posters in the general forums do not hold up, or can be applied to the arguments that underpin why mod forums should be closed. I am not a mod, nor involved in modding issues, so I do not see why any potentially negative comments I made about anyone not currently here should be protected from them, even if that protection was not really the intent of closing the board in the first place. I would respectfully argue that the side effect of closing the board is greater than the ‘illness’ it was trying to cure. I think it has put people like Ber into a very difficult situation which she could not win either way, and I think it is a trend that could reoccur with the same results in the future.

Therefore I am going to politely ask the administrators here if they could do me a service by temporarily suspending my account until such time as the general board here becomes open and accessible to everyone in at least a read-only format.

After that I would be very happy to be a part of this community again, if you will still have me. :-)

Ranger edit, 08 Nov 05

By the way, I should add that I lost my blimmin mobile on the flight home from Glasgow and am in the process of trying to retrieve it, so I am only on email and IM until such time as I can sort that out.

I will also add that I am going to send [non-member screen name deleted] a copy of the post I just made minus the part relating to Lidless as that was a comment made that he made on this board which he should reserve the right to approve her to see while we are still in this situation of a closed board. I know that whoever is feeding her knowledge of our posts will possibly do so with the post I just wrote, but I would like my own words to be read as they are written, and then people are free to make of them what they will, her, and everyone else here included.

Ranger edit, 08 Nov 05

Dindraug wrote:

I hate to point out that the reactions and events if this weekend show that we are not there yet.

The events of this weekend would not have happened if this were not a closed board.


I'm afraid I need to take a break from this place too. I will, however, continue to work on constitutional matters in the hope that once governance issues are resolved, this place can be opened.

It's clear no one can provide me with any assurances that that will happen until the constitutional matters are settled.