board77

I have been following this for the last few years, only to see which side can make claims for their positions, and, to be honest, aside from rhetoric and bad science of the worst sorts from both sides, really cannot take a firm position on this, but, I know where I tend to lean.

Canadian Seal Hunt

In all fairness, I also offer this link:

Seals and Sealing in Canada

and this link:

Canada Shrugs Off Boycott Threats Over Seal Hunt

So, I would like to ask those here to post your opinions. I will admit that I find the position of the Canadian government puzzling at best, since from what I understand, the major threat of a seal overpopulation would be the already low cod populations, but, since the facts stated by the Canadian official fisheries website seems to leave this in somewhat arguable dispute, I wonder just what the worldwide demand for sealskin and sealflesh exactly is. I also want to know why clubbing is the preferred method of "harvesting" the seals, if such an overpopulation exists. Sort of like shooting chickens in the henhouse, if you ask me. Nothing sportmanlike or humane about it, even with the claims that this is a needed livelihood for those on the Northern Atlantic seaboard, who are in peril of a below subsistance livelihood otherwise.

I am skeptical, and I personally find it barbaric. The seals that are killed are more than likely the whelps, or the newly weaned young who lack the escape skills of their elders. A seal pup changes color from white to dark in less than a month.

Like I have said earlier in other threads, if the people doing the harvesting had anything invested in the seals to begin with, maybe I would feel differently, they would have sheltered the seals, helped raise and nourish them, kept them protected and free from predators. They would have been raised, and the outcome would have been controlled and done most carefully. There would be a needed market for the commodity, it would be in demand, and it would be priced accordingly.

Is this the case here? The persons with these licenses invade the breeding/resting grounds and start the killing. There is nothing even remotely humane or thoughtful about the whole process. This is just wholesale slaughter in my mind.

Maybe the more important thing to focus efforts on is why the cod population has dwindled. It does not seem to be due to seals.

Anyway, thoughts?

edit for atrocious spelling

The "whitecoats" are not taken. They haven't been for years. The seals that are killed are shot, not clubbed. It was only the very young whitecoats that were ever clubbed, and that's not done any more, despite the doctored films that keep turning up. At a meeting in Newfoundland in 1988 I met two of the men who had aided the film makers and they had a lot of most interesting stories to tell. And whatever they might have thought of Brigitte Bardot as a "sex symbol" they had a very different opinion of her afterwards, because of how she behaved on the ice.

It's a hard thing for the Newfoundlanders to be branded as barbaric thugs. I don't think anyone "from away" has any idea of how poor these people are, to say they live in one of the world's richest countries. The Rock is a harsh land, and they have to be tough to survive. But they aren't barbarians or thugs, they are the finest people you'll ever meet.

I know somewhat of these matters. There is a market for sealskin, and for the meat, but the seals would be killed anyway, even if the fur and meat was unsaleable, in an attempt to protect the Cod.

The Northern Cod is more or less extinct. Any chance of its recovery depends on the few fish remaining, in the hope that they will breed enough to rescue the species. Although I am not a firm believer in DFO and everything they say, the truth is, the Cod is likely not going to recover despite the seal hunt. There is a critical mass, and many scientists think the cod has fallen below the numbers required.

Of course it is human overfishing that killed the Cod. Some of those fishermen were Canadian, many were American, but most were European, fishing just off our 200 mile limit.

The Northern Cod was once the largest "biomass" that ever lived in the oceans. No doubt if Man had not interfered, beginning in the 1400's, the seals and the cod would have kept to their natural balance. However, Man did interfere, particularly Spanish, Portugese, and Russian "man". The days of the factory ship were fatal to the cod and to the Newfoundlanders who could no longer fish in their old way. It's a mess, and the fisheries department messed up very badly, and man, do they have hard words for DFO in Newfoundland.

I have a hard time being objective about this. I love Newfoundland and the people who live there. They are wonderful people. They live in a very hard place, with little work. There is no industry to speak of. The land is all rock. Now that the cod is gone, they are suffering terrible hardship. Maybe the offshore oil will save them, I don't know, but it's tough, I can tell you that.

Well, it probably won't surprise you that I'm more on the side of the hunters on this one.

Quote:

Before sealers can qualify for a professional licence, they must obtain an assistant licence and work under the supervision of a professional sealer for two years.

Seal hunting methods have been studied and approved by the Royal Commission on Seals and Sealing. The Commission found that the methods used in hunting seals compare favourably to those used to dispatch any other wild or domestic animal. These methods are designed to kill the animal quickly, thus minimizing pain and psychological distress.

Personally, I couldn't imagine beating an animal to death, and I have to wonder if there are more humane ways out there to kill these seals. It is appalling and sad and horrific to watch. (I can remember the very first term paper I ever wrote, way back in the 6th grade, was about clubbing baby harp seals to death and how horrible it was! )

However, as I understand the situation now, most of the hunters are Inuits and other Native Americans, right? As such, this is part of their culture and livelihood, and I respect not only their right to harvest the seals but also their methods.

Also, perhaps I'm being naive, but I trust the biologists and the Canadian wildlife management people to do their jobs. IOW, I trust them to use good science and good wildlife management skills to ensure that (a) seal populations remain healthy and sizable, (b) fish populations remain healthy and sizable, (c) hunting is well-regulated and well-monitored, etc.

Would I want to participate? Never, unless I was stranded up there somewhere and needed some seal meat to survive. Do I think it should be outlawed? No, not unless there is another, reasonable, cost-effective method of culling the herd that also, somehow, takes into account the traditions and culture of the Native Americans.


Lally

This didn't happen too often in Manwe so perhaps this is a moment of occasion (;)) but I agree fully with what Lalaith said.

*The seals are not clubbed to death nowadays, they are shot.*

And when they were, it was as quick and humane as most methods of killing. Whitecoat pups had very fragile skulls and it was not hard to crush them.

Why did they club and not shoot them, in the old days? Well, the men who went sealing were too poor to waste bullets if a club would do, that's why.

A book worth reading is "Death on the Ice" by Cassie Brown. It is one account of the great sealing ship disaster of 1914. Riveting reading.

yovargas wrote:

This didn't happen too often in Manwe so perhaps this is a moment of occasion (;)) but I agree fully with what Lalaith said.

You’re not going to start hugging each other, are you?

Ah, go ahead. I won’t tell anybody.


TW, I’m afraid I can’t really glean enough information from the sites you linked to to understand what the problem is (and the second and third link seem to be identical). I vaguely remember something about the clubbing issue from a few years ago, but don’t remember too much about it. I gather from what Vison posted that there is an issue of depleted fisheries involved, and the economic struggles of the Newfoundlanders, but the government site seems to imply that there is an overpopulation of the seals. If that is the case, I would ask what problems are caused by this overpopulation. According to Vison it doesn’t really seem to have anything to do with the cod - that problem seems to be the result of human intervention in the over-fishing of the cod. One more example of man not considering the implications of his actions. But if this is being used as an excuse for the indiscriminate killing of these animals, without any other good reason for it, then I will say that it is a tragedy, and barbaric to boot. I certainly can sympathize with the Newfoundland people for the loss of their industry, which doesn’t seem to be entirely, if at all, their fault, but I can’t condone compounding one tragedy with another. I imagine, however, that the situation is more complicated than that.

This sounds vaguely similar to a problem we are having here with the local deer population. The number of deer has increased dramatically as their natural predators (wolves, bear, etc.) have been eliminated, and hunting has been outlawed in areas close to residential developments. As the deer are being squeezed out of their habitat by suburban sprawl, they are becoming quite a nuisance. It has become common to hear about deer being spooked out of the woods and ransacking people’s homes. It’s a very real problem, but what do you do? I know some property rights advocates, and people who think suburban development is a good thing, will flame me for this, but I think that there should be limits on development and that the natural habitats of these animals should be preserved. I also think the natural predators should be reintroduced, even if it means some hardship for some people.

The seal population exploded when the seal hunt was completely stopped for a few years.

My problem if the sites quoted seemed to be sort of the same, most of them were way too histrionic to quote in good conscience. I will keep looking for more balanced views, but, I am still puzzled about this, truly.

Harvesting the seals does not seem to have any long term impact upon the depleted cod industry, which is supposedly the reason that the seal harvest exists. Am I wrong here? I really do not know.

What economic gain is there in the seal industry? From what I understand, the US and most European nations will not buy the products, which leaves me at a loss for how this helps the people involved in the harvesting. What is the market? Is it just food and pelts for those involved?

And, the final stupid question, which I suppose I already know the answer to, but WHY on earth are these people staying there if the economic situation is so dire? I watched a Canadian real life series about a recreation of the life of cod fishermen during the 1930's, I forget what it was called, but, it even sucked given today's interference. If it is this bad, what are these people going to do ten or twenty years from now? It is not as if killing the seals is going to make any difference to the economy in the long run. So, are they merely hanging onto a pipe dream?

I really am puzzled here, and as I said, I really have no firm opinions, I truly just do not "get it."

There is a strong market for seal fur. It goes mostly to China, Korea, and Russia. The meat is used for pet food, and human food, too. Fertilizer.

The seals are eating the cod and the thought is that if the seal population is reduced it will help the cod recover.

Most young people do leave Newfoundand. It's the way things are. There is nothing there, unless the oil thing pans out.

Tinwe wrote:

I also think the natural predators should be reintroduced, even if it means some hardship for some people.

I prefer to be the predator, thank you. We have a deer overpopulation problem where I live, and we personally help cull the deer herd every year. We took 4 (or was it 5?) deer just last year.

You would have to introduce an enormous number of 'natural' predators to affect the number of deer out there, which would be detrimental to pets, livestock and small children. Not acceptable. The humans can keep the deer population in check, with enough hunting.

Killing the seals to help the fish population restart sounds logical to me, as long as the meat and fur isn't wasted, or the seal population isn't falling too low.

MariaHobbit wrote:

Tinwe wrote:

I also think the natural predators should be reintroduced, even if it means some hardship for some people.

I prefer to be the predator, thank you. We have a deer overpopulation problem where I live, and we personally help cull the deer herd every year. We took 4 (or was it 5?) deer just last year.

You would have to introduce an enormous number of 'natural' predators to affect the number of deer out there, which would be detrimental to pets, livestock and small children. Not acceptable. The humans can keep the deer population in check, with enough hunting.

Killing the seals to help the fish population restart sounds logical to me, as long as the meat and fur isn't wasted, or the seal population isn't falling too low.

There have been programs to reintroduce wolves to the coastal and mountain regions of North Carolina which, like other such programs, have met with fierce resistance by some. I think these are good efforts but I don’t really hold any illusions about such a thing having an impact on the deer population. Unfortunately hunting isn’t really an option this close to suburban areas. The consequences of that could be much worse than natural predators, in my opinion, although I don’t think anybody around here would feel comfortable knowing there are bears roaming around (even though there are, occasionally). But the real problem is simply the loss of habitat to suburban sprawl, and the only solution to that is to limit growth. I believe England has a good approach to this, drawing growth boundaries around urban areas and compensating land owners outside the boundary through transferable development rights. That idea has been tried here, but the greedy developers object even to that. They don’t want anything to interfere with their ability to rape the landscape.

As for the seals, from what Vison has said, it doesn’t sound like the seals are the cause of the cod problem - that was the result of overfishing, although the problem may now be such that the seals are a threat. But still, it sounds as though this is a case of trying to right one wrong with another. And a futile attempt, at that. Why doesn’t the government intervene? Can I assume that there is political pressure to stay out of it, because of the economic hardships of the Newfoundlanders? I just don’t have enough information to know, but I can’t say that “hunting is the answer” without some justifiable reason to do so.

The government has intervened. That's why there's a seal hunt.

The sealing was stopped for some years, due to foreign protesters. But the seal population exploded coincidentally with the collapse of the cod.

The seal hunt is directly "operated" or sanctioned by the Canadian government through the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, and by the Newfoundland government.

There is no shortage of seals. They are very numerous and the population can easily bear culling. Since this provides employment for men who would otherwise be unemployed and living on welfare ALL the time, it seems like a good idea to me.

In Canada there has been a conscious decision to intervene to allow people to stay in their native place if possible. There have been myriad government programs to enable Newfoundlanders and residents of the Maritimes to stay where they want to stay, in their home place. It has a cost, of course.

But so does the American system, which is no system. People go where they hope to find work and of course, they very often don't and thus you have this huge unemployed, underemployed, unemployable and often homeless population which has no direct cost to the state. But the cost is huge in every way, just the same.

I think our system is better, myself, being more humane. However there is no denying that there is a huge unemployed population in Newfoundland and the Maritimes. They are pinning all their hopes on the Hibernia oil fields, which rival Saudi Arabia from what I hear.

In the meantime, the men of Newfoundland go out on the ice seal hunting as their forefathers did for many years. It is cold, dangerous, dirty work. They are called barbarians and thugs by people sitting in warm apartment buildings in foreign cities, eating fruit grown by peons earning starvation wages, drinking coffee grown by huge corporations, wearing clothes made by children in sweatshops.

It all depends on your point of view, sometimes.

Exactly, vison.



Tinwe, I know that around here they have special bow hunts. Bowhunting allows for a greater degree of safety when hunting in heavily populated areas. Either that, or they hire sharpshooters. I know they also increase (or decrease) the number of deer you're allowed to take during the season.

Given that, I think a better answer than attempting to reintroduce top predators would be to do some positive PR for hunting, to work to increase the number of hunters, and to simply go ahead and have these special types of controlled hunts (despite public pressure to do otherwise).

Honestly, most people just don't understand the need for hunting when it comes to wildlife management. All they can think about is how cute Bambi is and all that. What they need to realize is that one does not have to personally like hunting to understand that it is necessary, particularly since we, as humans, have extirpated the predators in most places.

Do I like hunting? No. Have I ever hunted and killed something? No. But I really respect my husband and everyone else I know who does hunt; they are doing us a great service, working to control the deer population and other wildlife populations. As well, they are working to keep those populations healthy--something that really resonates with me, being the closet tree-hugger I am.

I agree, though, that something needs to be done to curtail urban sprawl and land development. I do not know what the answers are, but it is so frustrating to see forests razed in less than a day for that newest strip mall (with 10 more stores we don't really need or want!) and fields plowed flat for the latest housing development.

Quote:

This didn't happen too often in Manwe so perhaps this is a moment of occasion () but I agree fully with what Lalaith said.

Really???

Seriously, this does call for something special.



How's that?


Lally

Thanks Vison. I think I understand things little better now. I still don’t get the reference to Brigitte Bardot, although I can guess. I imagine these protesters are well intentioned, but ignorance of the facts is a sorry excuse for branding anyone a barbarian and distortion of the facts is something that should never be condoned. I wonder, is anyone trying to set the record straight on this, or do people simply refuse to listen? I can see how it would be a hard sell. After all, who would want to see cute little seals being killed by big mean hunters?

Lally,
North Carolina has a very successful program to reintroduce red wolves to the environment, and from what I understand there is little evidence to suggest that they are threat to pets or livestock and no evidence that they are a threat to humans. There have been many vocal opponents to the program, but a recent court case reaffirmed the wolves status as a protected species.

I am not opposed to hunting per se, and I agree that many hunters deserve our respect, but like anything else, I don’t think the generalizations apply to everyone. Some hunters, and some hunting practices, are barbaric, in my opinion. There is a tradition among some hunters here, on the first day of deer hunting season, they drive up to the mountains with their dogs, set up elaborate camps, send the dogs into the woods to flush out the deer, sit back in their lounge chairs, get drunk and wait for the deer to be chased into the camps and then they just blow them away. It is barbaric, and it gives all hunters a bad name. A shame, really, since, as you say, many hunters provide a valuable service.

As for development and loss of habitat, well, conservationists seem to be fighting a losing battle there. Developers carry enormous political clout, and around here they pretty much get whatever they want. And there is really very little opposition to them. Those strip malls you see going up are only following the suburban housing developments they serve, and people just love their suburban houses. Unfortunately, this is a situation where things are going to have to get a lot worse before anyone cares enough to do anything about it. And by then it will probably be too late. How sad.

If you eat what you kill, then hunting is fine. And there is an argument for some trophy hunting, in that the hunter has to pay HUGE sums of money to (mostly) native guides in order to get his trophy. But I think it's a bizarre thing, myself.

There is no way that "nature" is ever going to have its "natural" balance any more, not as long as there are human beings on this planet. So we are forced to try to manage things and we haven't got that perfected yet.

vison wrote:

If you eat what you kill, then hunting is fine.

Is that really all there is to it? Would you condone the type of “hunting” I described above - a bunch of drunk yahoos sitting in lounge chairs waiting to blow away Bambi? Maybe it’s overly sentimental of me, and I confess to being a city dweller, but it just doesn’t seem too sporting to me. Does the manner of the hunt make any difference, or is it just the end result that matters?

vison wrote:

There is no way that "nature" is ever going to have its "natural" balance any more, not as long as there are human beings on this planet. So we are forced to try to manage things and we haven't got that perfected yet.

I agree with this, but it doesn’t hurt to strive for “natural balance”, even if such a thing is ultimately an illusion. Things happen in nature for a reason, and its usually a pretty good reason, so I think it behooves us to pay attention to what those things are. How we manage things should at least try to be as “natural” as possible, if that makes any sense.

Well, tinwe, when I say "hunting" I don't mean drunks in arm chairs. I mean guys like my Dad, who used to go out into the bush with his gun, a couple of bullets, and a dog. And not always the dog, either. He only took two or three bullets, the idea was, if you needed more you didn't know what you were doing. And bullets were expensive.

The thing you describe isn't hunting. It's .. like shooting fish in a barrel, I guess. I honestly don't think the guys who live in the bush, like the people who live in Alaska or Yukon or Northern Saskatchewan or wherever, "hunt" like that.

The armchair thing seems more like, oh, I don't know, let's say, Texas? I read about one of those "game farms" in Texas, although they may have them somewhere else, too. Maybe in Ontario. All the bad things in Canada happen in Ontario. It's a well-known fact.

This just in:


Writer Fabricated Boston Globe Story on Seal Hunt

29 minutes ago

By Greg Frost

BOSTON (Reuters) - A Boston Globe freelance writer fabricated large chunks of a story published this week, the newspaper said on Friday in the latest incident to embarrass the U.S. media.



The Globe, which is owned by The New York Times Co., said it stopped using writer Barbara Stewart because of a story that ran on Wednesday about a seal hunt off Newfoundland -- a hunt, it turns out, that had not taken place.


The Halifax, Nova Scotia-datelined article described in graphic detail how the seal hunt began on Tuesday, with water turning red as hunters on some 300 boats shot harp seal cubs "by the hundreds."


The problem, however, was that the hunt did not begin on Tuesday; it was delayed by bad weather and was scheduled to start on Friday, weather permitting, the Globe said in an editor's note.


Stewart could not immediately be reached for comment.


The newspaper, which first learned of the problem when the Canadian government called to complain, said in an editor's note it should not have published the story and should have insisted on attribution for details because the writer was not reporting from the scene.


"Details included the number of hunters, a description of the scene, and the approximate age of the cubs. The author's failure to accurately report the status of the hunt and her fabrication of details at the scene are clear violations of the Globe's journalistic standards," the paper said.


'NEVER ASSUME'


Globe Foreign Editor James Smith said that the newspaper knew Stewart was not at the seal hunt and was doing her reporting from Halifax.


"What she told us -- and we did check during the day -- was that she had confirmed with one of the fishermen in the story that it was going ahead," Smith said, adding that in retrospect the paper should have worked harder to clarify this.


"The point is, never assume," he told Reuters.


He added that Globe staffers have since reviewed two other stories Stewart wrote for the paper, but found no inaccuracies or other problems with them.


Canada is extremely sensitive about the hunt, during which hundreds of thousands of seals are beaten to death or shot for their pelts every year. U.S. activists, who says the seals are killed inhumanely, are urging consumers to shun Canadian seafood until the hunt is stopped.


Canadian Fisheries Minister Geoff Regan said his officials had called the paper to point out the error.


"We've been trying to get the facts out about the seal harvest, the fact that the herd is very healthy ... that in 98 percent of cases it (the hunt) is done in a humane way," he told Reuters in a telephone interview.


Officials with the newspaper were not immediately available for further comment.


U.S. media organizations have been hit with a series of high-profile cases involving plagiarism or fabrication.


In 2003, The New York Times' top two editors, Howell Raines and Gerald Boyd, left the paper after it was disclosed that reporter Jayson Blair had fabricated and plagiarized material.

CBS News, The Washington Post, NBC News, CNN, the New Republic magazine and USA Today have also been caught up in celebrated flaps over inaccurate reporting.

(additional reporting by David Ljunggren in Ottawa)

And remember, fellow B77's, that the cute little whitecoats are NOT killed in this hunt. They have not been for some years now. And the seals that are killed are SHOT, not clubbed.

Even the corrected story got a lot wrong. Just shows ta go ya, don't it?










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