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The Watcher,

Tough Love is your only option. I speak from experience here.
I lived through the nightmare teenage years. I loved my daughter, I did not like her. She had three abortions, stole from me, refused to attend school, associated with skinheads and was arrested numerous times, mostly for drunk and disorderly, shop-lifting and breaking curfew. The last time I went to bail her out, a dectective stopped me and said, "leave her in overnight. If you don't she will never learn to associate her actions with consequences. You are not doing her any favours by comming to her rescue time after time."

I listened. I suffered huge pangs of guilt. What did I do wrong? (pretty much everything, really) How could I leave my only child in a cold and barren jail cell with godknows who else? Hard as it was I left here there.
She was seventeen.

When I finally picked her up the next morning, I told her in no uncertain terms that if she didn't change, she was out of the house the morning of her eighteenth birthday.

The courts forced her to attend N.A. meetings. I forced her to get a job and pay rent. She slowly came around but it was touch and go for a while.
She left on her own at nineteen.

Now she lives in Oregon and has a child of her own. Our relationship is better for the distance between us. ( We are too similar in temperament).

I hope that you can eventually mend your relationship with your child also, but it will never happen unless and until you take a stand.
I'm a firm believer that blood has nothing to do with it. I wouldn't put up with such behaviour from a stranger OR a friend. And neither should you.

There will be some guilt but you need to repeat the litany that she needs to experience the consequence of her actions otherwise nothing can be learned and you will continue to be victimized.

My heart goes out to you. I know how difficult it is.

Vison, I ache for you and for your son and for his children. I think in this case you did better than you think by following your heart rather than your head. You can revoke the bond later if necessary.

What pain you must have felt over the years about your son's addiction. And even though it's the best thing, it can't be easy to watch your child sign away any part in his own children's lives.

You, too, will be in my thoughts.

vison, What a terrible, painful situation this must be for you.

The one bright spot I can see in your very sad story is that your son signed over his children to you voluntarily. Maybe, at some level, he understands that this is the best thing for them...maybe he knows that he can never get straight but he has enough wits about him to do the right thing for his kids. And he must feel that you will bring them up right and true. And you will.

You are in in prayers. And so are your grandkids.

I don't know how to even begin responding to stories like these, but it sure puts the little kerfluffle I'm going through in perspective.

Vison and Sass,

to both of you, too.

The sleepless nights we spend over our children ... there's nothing else to compare with this.

The thing that is so aggravating about it is that for all the loose talk about family values we find floating around in society, there is no one, NO ONE who will stand by you and offer you more than platitudes (when they're not talking behind your back) in situations like this.

There's simply no one right answer for every relationship, and our children are who they are from the moment they're born. We can encourage certain qualities and discourage others (and it takes decades of subtle influence to do that) but we can't CHANGE them. All we can do is be authentic ourselves in our relationship with them.

Jn

for everyone.

TW, as someone who was a teenager not so long ago, kicking her out of the house seems like exactly the right thing to do. It will be painful in the shortterm for both of you, but in the long run it is much more likely to bring some peace to both of your lives.

If I believed in prayer, I would pray for all of you.

I can’t add anything to this, but I feel I would be remiss not to offer hugs to some of the finest women and mothers I have had the privilege to know.

:hug::hug::hug::hug:

The hardest part of it is the fear that if I had only been a better mother none of this would have happened. I say we did our best, and we did, but there are things I'd do over if I could.

Yet a 40 year old man has to be responsible for his own life, doesn't he? He lived a straight life for quite awhile and I hope he can do it again.

Vison,

There's probably not a person on earth who wouldn't do some things over again if they could. But something as serious as addiction ... no one but the addict can be responsible for that, or be responsible for overcoming their addiction.

People do overcome addictions ... the one downside of this that I've observed (though maybe it is heartening if more realism allows one to accept smaller gains as major progress) - the one downside I've observed is that when a person overcomes a serious addiction, staying clean occupies most if not all of their emotional energy for pretty much the rest of their life. It is truly disabling ... no one bounces back and goes on with their life as if it hadn't happened.

Jn

Vison, I think it is a universal trait of mothers to feel that they must carry some of the blame if something goes wrong with their children. What if I had done this or that differently? Would they have turned out "better"?

That's a pretty natural feeling, since mothers do have so much influence and since we have to make so many choices in so many gray areas. It's easy to look back and see mistakes.

Even when it's obvious that the problem is grounded in choices made by our children, we wonder what we did wrong. Even when it's obvious the problem is grounded in the child's physical makeup, we wonder what we did wrong. My son recently developed bipolar disorder. It's a physical disease, not the result of bad mothering. My intellect knows and accepts that. But when I see him ride the wild roller coaster of emotion, I can't help thinking that somehow I failed to give him stability.

I am trying to come to terms with the thought that my husband and I did the best we knew how. And if there were mistakes, there were mistakes. Now we just try again to do the best we know how. That's all we can do.

And that's all you can do, too.

Heartbreak seems to be a very real risk of having children.

I was the "good child" where my brother was a problem. Partied, he was kicked out of the house when he was 17 or so, and then got arrested for dealing cocaine in his early 20s. But he straightened up his life, has been married for 11 years, owns a house, responsible job.

I see this with my 4 year old at her daycare. My 4 year old is pretty easy really, her teachers say she has a "strong sense of order and rules". But there's a class mate, 4 year old Harry, who is just a terror. He can't follow rules, he's disruptive, the other children won't play with him, and he bites. I look at that and I just know some children are born difficult. Maybe he would be better if his parents knew how to deal with him better, but at the root of it is a child who was born with extra difficulties. And I think, "there but for the grace of god (and genetics) go I"

I have also seen with my daughter that firm and clear consequences that she doesn't like really does work best. My husband for a time tried to "cajole" her out of her piques, and that only made them worse. My approach, which was matter of fact time-outs and taking things away from her, seemed to work better. Not that a situation with a 4 year old can compare to a situation with adult children, but my experience does seem to confirm that what is needed is tough love, and letting them live with the consequences of their actions.

Best of luck to all of us.

vison, I can only glimpse what you're going through. My cousin, in his mid 40s, is a cocaine addict and has not only severed ties with his family, including his daughter, but sold his half of the parental house he owned with his sister, after their mother, my aunt, died a couple of years ago, to finance his addiction.

I am not responsible for this, and the situation affects me very tangentially, which is why I say I can only glimpse what you're going through, but at least I think I understand it a bit. And I'm in awe of your fortitude.

You are amazing people. I'm humbled and full of admiration.

Well, the truth is, I don't know any other way to go along.

"Shit happens," that's my motto.

And when shit happens, you deal with it. Believe me, I wish I could just pull a blanket over my head and ignore it all. It isn't fortitude, it's just plain pigheadedness and an inability to give up. Even when I should.

Yes, having children is giving your heart and your life away. There is no joy like it, and no pain like it. Does the joy outweigh the pain? Today, today I have a hard time answering that. Only I think of the little boys I just took to school, their sweet faces like sunshine, and I think, well, they are worth ANY pain.

And after a long phone conversation I just found out that signing this stupid bond is not quite as simple as I was led to believe. In order to do it I have to produce the title to our land, the paid property tax receipt from last year, the assessment notice, and my husband has to sign too. Not a simple process. And not going to happen. It isn't an issue of the money, per se, I could just put up $5,000 cash, but the court won't take cash in this case. He already made the cash bail, this is over and above that, this is one of those old holdovers from long ago, where you had to have a surety from some "person of property".

Or, his lawyer could get Crown to accept me as "named surety", which is the way I'll go. Only it won't happen in five minutes so it doesn't look like anyone's getting out of jail today.

Now I'm mad all over again. He might truly have thought it was as simple as me toddling into the courthouse to sign a paper, or, more likely he might have known what a big deal it is. And being the way he is he'll think I should be running around like a madwoman doing this so he can get out.

Someone above said that some kids are born difficult and that's the case here. He was always a hard one to deal with, and it took many, many years before we would really accept in our hearts that he was just born that way. I don't quite understand and probably never will understand how someone can be born with an inability to follow the ordinary rules of human society, but there you are. Maybe not inability, but born with a conviction that he doesn't have to follow the rules. He CAN, he just doesn't. No conscience.

Sorry for derailing this thread. But maybe it isn't so derailed, I don't know.

I hope TheWatcher had a good night's sleep and is feeling calmer and less stressed today. Godalmighty, stress will KILL you.

How can I hope to advise you Vison when you have such a wise and kind head on your shoulders. All I can do is look on with mingled sympathy and respect. Do what you believe to be right and jump through whatever bloody hoops get put in front of you. When you can, share some of the joy of your grandchildren with us.

TheWatcher, I also agree that now, the only possibility is to make your daughter understand that, either she plays by the rules, or she's out of the house. And, as Jn said, there probably is some deeper problem behind her behaviour that she has to solve so, you must make her face and solve it. I know it's easier said than done.

Vison and Sassafras, I take my hat off for you. Your stories really help one to put normal teenage crankiness and rebellion into perspective.

And, to all of you who have children: Encourage them to leave home and get on their own as soon as they grow up. Myself, I lived with my parents for all too long, was finally almost at open war with my mother, and as I finally left, I wanted to have as little as possible to do with my parents for a long time.

I have no sensible words to offer, only . My son is only 6 and even though he is an easy child I am already noticing some tendencies in our relationship that could complicate our lives later on. Can I help him work them out before they become big problems? As ellienor said, there but for the grace of God go I.

Drive-by wave to Ellie Mom-To-Be! Hi Ellie

Vison, my heart goes out to you, it really does. I have an aunt who is raising her grandchildren, for much the same reason as you. My mother went to stay with her for a few months several years ago when she had back surgery. I know how hard it can be. Like you said, you deal with it. You do what you can and hope for the best, or at least something better. I know that’s what you are doing and you have my sympathy and respect.

You know what they say. Parenthood is not for sissies.

My own problems have been relatively minor, although my foster daughter certainly has given me a run for my money! But there have been problems enough - although nothing like what TheWatcher and vison are experiencing.

Sometimes I think all you can do is hang on for dear life and pray you get to the end of the ride in one piece.

But the rewards are sweet...

hmmm, I`m 24 and lurking in...and still living at home btw

I had huge issues with my parents during my teenage years...there was shouting, yelling, awful silences...and times I thought about moving to my grandma`s but I decided in my ultimate teenage wisdom that gradnparents would probably hassle even more..

somehow, don`t ask me how, we got through it...and now it`s working like a charm...

watcher, if I was acting like that towards my parents I would kick myself out ten times over....that`s absolutely unexcusable behaviour from "the child"
it comes down to some plain and simple RESPECT for another human being, no matter what is the relation between you
your level of tolerance is certainly much higher than mine would be...but I guess until I get my own little *love children* I won`t go there

Lots of very, very good responses from parents. As a resident 19 year old myself (:oops: too young), I, too, have some thoughts. Since I'm just a kid myself, I know this is going to sound naive, so...sorry about that

The Watcher - I'm so, so sorry that you are dealing with this. I think that when we children reach the 18-21 age range, growing pains can hit their worst. We're "adults", in the law's eyes, and frequently in our own estimation, but in so many other ways, we're still children. We have the capacity to make such horrendous mistakes, all while thinking that we're fully justified. What can be bad is that we suddenly have full legal independence to make those mistakes as well.

At this time, parents step in frequently, wanting to help us and to guide us, wanting to parent us as they have for the past eighteen to twenty-one years. Yet, this transition to full adulthood that we're beginning, it more often than not requires tough love from parents. Sometimes, the greatest love you can show your child - and yourself - is to call on them to stand on their own two feet and to be an adult, as you have done your best to teach them to be.

I see that you expect that those of us who are younger would argue the other side. Based on my own experience, I'm not inclined to. Because I was away at school when I turned 18, my split with my parents didn't involve anyone being kicked out (and no one thought to use Windex!), but the split did occur nonetheless. My parents wanted to see one level of responsibility from me; I wanted to "be an adult" and "make my own decisions", which predictably weren't as good as the ones my parents wanted to see me making. Their ultimatum to me was to comply exactly with their rules, or drop out of law school, since they wouldn't pay my tuition otherwise. I disliked both of those choices and elected instead to take out student loans to cover the cost of education, to the tune of $50K per year for two years. My parents agreed to back off, saying that I was an adult, and it was my money (or lack thereof, should we say?) and my life, and I needed to make my own mistakes. Which was true. And I did (make some significant mistakes)...but it resulted in me: (1) taking responsibility for my life; (2) trying to act more like an adult; (3) reaching a place of mutual respect and understanding with my parents. If they had tried to baby me or pamper me, yes, there'd have been a couple of mistakes that would have gone unmade, but I wouldn't have grown and matured from them - which is a necessary part of this stage in life IMO.

We need to learn to fend for ourselves, and we need to learn to accept the consequences of our actions. We need our parents to encourage us to do this, and to support us when we are doing it well - but to have them there as too much of a fail-safe discourages us from standing up and trying our best to be adults. I know your child's situation is different than mine; all people's experiences are going to differ. I still believe that calling on her to grow up and become the adult she is supposed to be, by which I mean the "tough love" that others have advocated, is the best thing that you can do for her.

- TP