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Wow. Tolkienpurist, I wish I had been as wise as you at 19. You don't sound naive at all. Quite the contrary. I suspect your parents are very proud of how you are doing, despite any mistakes.

I second tolkienpurist. I'm 24, but I remember the "break" pretty clearly. You've got this conflict going once you hit adulthood - you still want your parent's approval and yet you want to be your own person as well. And then for whatever reason you stop caring about what your parents think (well you don't want them to be unhappy, but you don't need them to glow over your grades). That, according to my mom, is when you've grown up. Strangely enough, even though I'm theoretically grown up by Mom's definition, whenever I go back to Seattle for a visit, she's still on my neck to get my hair under control in the morning. At least the Colorado sun has cleared up my complexion so I don't have to get it from my dad too. :/

It never would have occurred to me to spray Windex in anyone's face. Not even when I was going through the demon stage all girls go through (~12 - ~15) and certainly not after a family tragedy when I was 17 got me past what was left of my teenage self-absorption. Maybe it's because I know enough chemistry to know how evil Windex is, maybe it's because I've learned to see past myself. Your daughter, The Watcher, needs a good kick in the ass. Nothing like a good ass-kicking to get your head straightened out. Throwing her out of the house was the least you could do.

The Watcher,

I'm sorry I didn't notice this thread earlier. It is difficult to really give advice for this situation, since there are so many different things in play. I can say that my wife and I faced a similar problem years ago. We came to realize that there was actually nothing we could do to fix the child's problems and almost anything we tried to help was twisted into enabling her behavior. Separation, in some cases, is the only answer, if only for preserving your own sanity. Once it has reached the point of physical threats to you and/or your household, I think the only answer is separation.

We have 4 children. 2 are adopted, including the problem child. 3 are wonderful and extremely responsible members of society. 1 isn't. There are a variety of reasons and excuses for her behavior. It started when she was 14 and no amount of assistance, from the many who have tried, has helped. She is legally responsible for herself and we can exercise no control over her behavior. In her wake are a heartbroken mother, an abandoned husband, 2 children separately abandoned, drug addiction, lies, theft, and an endless continuation of this list.

We know from similar experiences of our friends that sometimes these situations are correctable, but in none of these cases does it seem to have been corrected by any action of a parent. It is almost completely under the control of the child and requires their recognition of the condition and their determination to fix it. The child will eventually become aware of the ease of deceiving the parent into thinking these steps have been taken and use them as tool to get the parent to unwittingly enable continuation of their behavior.

On the positive side, we had news yesterday of an important correct decision made by a friend's child who is actually working their way out of their problem.

Our child is 30 and out of rehab for 2 months and not actively improving her condition. We know what is next in her repetitive pattern and can do nothing to stop it.

We wish you the best, we hope your child's problem isn't as severe as our child's. We know you will question your own judgment no matter what you choose to do, don't lose sight of your responsibility to yourself, develop an awareness of what can really be helpful to your child, and we hope you choose not to be a victim.

John and Jan

What Jn and Vision said.
[Disclaimer: I'm sorry I can't be more warm and fuzzy about this.]
Get the restraining order. Just as she had to struggle to get out of the womb, she needs to struggle to get back into your heart. She needs this struggle.

Get help. There are tough love groups out there that can help. There's a terrific 12-step thing out there called Celebrate Recovery, it's not about substance abuse. It's pretty open ended about whatever hurts, habits and hang-ups a person is struggling with. There's no extra points for trying to do this alone.

And you need to recognize the difference between her shit and yours. When I first read your opening post, I thought: it's time to button up your blouse and tell this kid to find another tit to suck. Call it tough love, call it an end to enabling, call it taking care of yourself, (and your child), whatever. It's time. She needs to be out.

You didn't bring things to this point, she did.

I hope you don't mind my bringing the bible into this, but it does say for us to honor our parents, not the other way around. She has made choices about how to handle her problems. Her choices will shape her life. Your choices will shape yours.

I am the mother of 5 adult children, aged 19-28. No saints among them, and more than a couple of sinners, but, bumpity-bump, they're coming along. Course, their father stuck around, and that makes a difference. But still, if it hadn't worked out that way, they'd still be responsible to find a way to honor both of us. That's their problem. That's how it is. I didn't make the rules of this universe, that's just how things work.


The best thing you can do for her right now, is take care of you.

I absolutely agree with all those who say you did the right thing, TW. (Did anyone disagree?) In the long run, you are helping your child by not putting up with that behavior.

I also bear witness to the "difficult child". Rebecca is the sweetest, most easy-going child ever. Never had to teach her table manners, she instinctively picked up on them. Fairness and sharing were her way of life. And then there's her sister. My Lord, I love her dearly, but stubborn. Absolutely. And unable to learn anything except through her own experience. Nothing anyone else warns her of, makes an impression on her. Without my copy of the Silmarillion handy, she reminds me of Feanor. There's a quote about him, something about few chould change his course of action by talking, none by force. That's my Jessica.

But she is an absolute joy to be around-when she wants to be. It's all highs or lows. She is fascinating to talk to-she was just home on Sat. night, we discussed LOTR for hours. (She's finally reading it.) She's either very funny, kind and helpful-or so irritating I can't stand her.

I remember as a teen, she was fond of slamming her door. 11:00 pm, I'm drifting off to sleep. SLAM!! as Jessica goes to brush her teeth. 5 minutes later, she was done...SLAM! Back in her room....SLAM! Forgot something.... We asked her again and again to shut it quietly. Finally, I took her door off the hinges and put it in the basement. A few months later, she earned it back.

Please keep us posted. I hope you clean out the bedroom. Convert it to a workout room, a guest bedroom, a craft or hobby room. Find peace.

Wow I just read this whole thread!!! Thank You all you parents for being so honest. Vision I do not know what to say. TW I will work on figuring it out.


First, I will say I am 25 and I remeber those teenage years. Now I will say in my case my parents stayed together (although they fight like cats and dogs) and had 3 children with no major problems like the ones discussed here. The thought of spraying Windex into either parents face would not even come into our heads becuase you just dont do that. That crosses the line of respect. That was instilled in us very very young. I am even stunned when I see 4 or 5 year olds actually kick their parents in temper tantrums. When I was that age I wouldn't do that!!! The consequences were to horrible to imagine in my little brain. Certain things even when I think of it now, if I ever dared to do them, I would have to run to other side of Canada to escape.

I think the only time we ever had huge problems (none as bad as yours) was when it came to expressing independance. Parents didn't want us to make mistakes and my younger sis an I were coddled. That did not do us any favours. By most peoples standards we were easy children. In fact my mother went so far as brag about us every chance she got and did not realize the pressure that put us under, and how bragging can come of as a means of veiled control, which basically put a lid on our attempts at independance. It even caused my younger sis to throw up on several occasions since she would get stressed out.

Anyway the reason I am relating that to you is during the teen years the teenager is struggling for independance even if it means doing horribly stupid things that can screw up the rest of their lives. I lived in a particularly bad neighbourhood so I saw this sort of thing all the time. Some of the things that teenagers do just boggle my mind even when I was a teenager since I so wholy did not think like most of those around me. Things like what your daughter does, was the norm for my high school and my neighbourhood, except the part about a good job.

It is time for your daughter to leave the house. For me that was the best thing and is I think for most people at that age. It improved my relationship with my parents greatly. Some call it loving your parents from a distance.

From what I saw of the teenagers at that time in their life they think they know everything, and they will be teenagers forever, so no matter what you say TW you will be considered wrong. She needs to go out and make her own mistakes and learn from them and realize that she has to grow up. I think that is the main thing here. Some people reach this realization earlier in their lives, some later. Some never do. I think after a couple of years she may mature and realize how wrong she was at the time. I know many many many people who I did not want to associate myself with, since they were so immature and stupid and so willing to destroy thier lives since they never thought of consequences or looked farther into the future then next weekend. After 2 or 3 years after high school they were extraordinarily mature and realized they were young and stupid back then. Quite a few actually talk to me as friends and relized I knew what the frell I was doing in high school. Also they have taken on major personal responsibilty. So The Watcher there is hope.

I know you are afraid that she might think you don't love her (may not be her immediate thought) or some other stuff, but she needs to be out of that house.

Also although she gets kicked out I do not think you have to cut off all contact, hopefully after while you can have some meaningful discussion and work things out. But what ever you do, no matter what happens do not take her back in if some disaster occurs. Sometimes people will orchestrate a disaster so their parents can take them back. I have seen sooooo many teenagers get pregnant for the stupidest of reasons. I had a neighbour for 10 years try to kick out her son and he was into his 30's. If the situation is really bad a temporary restraining order could be good. Not just for yourself but also for the grandparents so she can't run to them. She may do something stupid. She may not, but that is her choice. You shoud not feel guilty.

As other people have suggested get into support groups TW (and Vision), I have seen so many people feel like they are alone when they do not have to be.

Another thought, I know this could sound really bad but it's better that you kick her out rather then her threaten to leave (or something else) and use that as a means to control you. I have seen that happen. It's your house. You take control of the situation. It is time for her to go.

Wilma, you are a wise young woman.