board77

For me too.

Sassafras wrote:

All I was doing was speculating on how Tolkien might have reacted to the passing of grace from Frodo to Sam.

I think he would have thrown a fried egg against his sitting room wall.

I actually rather agree with that. Tolkien made it very clear that it was Frodo's special qualities that earned him Grace, and that Sam did not share those qualities.

Nor do I think that that is what the filmmakers were getting at. I don't see Sam as acting as an instrument of Grace. This is one area that I agree with those who contend that the filmmakers have removed the divine influence from the story and replaced it with a very human intervention.

Voronwe.



It's true that I havn't read all of Letters although I did search the index for Sam so I could get some idea of how Tolkien viewed his participation.
I havn't found much.

On the subject of grace. Wasn't the whole point of divine intervention, the shoring up of Frodo's will, resolve if you like, is so that he could actually get the Ring to Sammath Naur? Does it make a huge difference how that intervention is made manifest?

For example, as Prim says in an earlier post:

Primula_Baggins wrote:

Well, this is a dramatic instance of Sam saving Frodo from the Ring, but in the book Sam does the same in another way, does he not? On Mount Doom he holds Frodo's hand to keep him from reaching for it.
In other places I have the impression that Tolkien considers Sam almost an appendage of Frodo--"Alone he went, with his servant. . . ." Sam's will intervening might be part of the same grace that lets Frodo's own will resist in other places.

I must agree with you on this:

Quote:

Nor do I think that that is what the filmmakers were getting at. I don't see Sam as acting as an instrument of Grace. This is one area that I agree with those who contend that the filmmakers have removed the divine influence from the story and replaced it with a very human intervention.

Other than Gandalf being sent back and the Eagles at the Black Gate,
I can't think of any area of the film where divine intervention was knowingly included.

All I'm asking is whether or not Tolkien could have accepted Sam saving Frodo from claiming the Ring at Osgiliath.

Cerin: Brief, succinct and to the point. But why a fried egg?

Sassy, I love discussing these things with you; you bring such a fresh and interesting perspective to them.

As to the specific question of whether Tolkien would have objected to the specific instance of Sam saving Frodo from putting on the Ring, I think not. But I think that he might have objected to the repeated instances of Sam doing so that are in the film. I think (and I fully admit that I am probably projecting my own feelings here) that he would have agreed with the general criticism of the films that they raise Sam up at Frodo's expense too much. I certainly think so.

But looking at the scene more broadly, I confess to really having no idea how he would have reacted. I am not as sure as some that he would have completely rejected it out of hand simply because of the "we shouldn't even be here" factor. But I am equally unsure that he would responded positively to the sublime visuals. As I have said before, those sublime visuals always affect me in a way completely distinct from the way anything in Tolkien's work affects me. I really have no guide to judge how he would have reacted.

Voronwe_the_Faithful wrote:

But looking at the scene more broadly, I confess to really having no idea how he would have reacted.

That was my point as well, and I think the only sensible reply that can be made to that question.

[quote="Sassafras"]
eborr, you miss the point which is to indulge in an excercise set out by tolkienpurist ...

[quote]

ah but if I stuck to the point, I would not have the opportunity to dis that tedious scene.

eborr wrote:

ah but if I stuck to the point, I would not have the opportunity to dis that tedious scene.

Tedious as in slow moving? Or tedious as in boring?

You might not particualrly care for it, approve of it, but the Nazgul over Osgiliath is anything but boring, dull or slow moving.

Dis away, eborr.
Dis away.

I'm interested in why you feel that way. Beside the fact that it isn't true to Tolkien.

Do the changes work as an adaption?

Hmm. Maybe I should trawl some old TORC TTT threads so you don't have to repeat yourself!

The Tennis Ball Kid wrote:

Alatar wrote:

Ok, now I have a vision of the ghost of Tolkien reading B77.

JRRT: That is sooo not what I meant! Damn these ethereal fingers that cannot type a response.... I really wish I'd thought of that Osgiliath detour for myself!

Alatar

*whistle*

ttbk

You need to add a '2' to the URL to get it to work. I have done so below, but will not ask for the original to be edited, as at some point, TORC will probably go back to the original URL.

*whistle*