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Ench :p What do you care, you're not even christian.

No, that was a joke of course. I just want to say I won't be taking part in this talk anymore because I can't get my thoughts together enough to actually discuss it with people. It just works for me. *shrug*

Why is it that when I was reading the Grand Inquisitor scene in the Bros. Karamazov last night that I could only see B XVI's face?

Rodia wrote:

Ench :p What do you care, you're not even christian.

No, that was a joke of course.

...If things were different in this regard (ie. women werent grossly and hypocritically excluded from spiritual life in the ways they currently are in Catholicism) perhaps Id still be one...
Its the biggest thing that made me break with the Church. I simply won't stand for it. In the course of that break Ive re-examined my beliefs and done a lot of "seeking" and found things that I believe work better for me than Catholicism (even if it was truly for equality)...but you never know what might have been!
...I respect the Catholic faith itself, still draw on parts of it; for better or worse it has pearmeated me when I was young, and thanks to the fact that I had a liberal, free-thinking (what some would call dissentist and heretical Im sure) upbringing, I dont regret that fact one bit...
Jesus and Mary are very cool in my books.
I just have gigantic issues with the "system" of the senior men in Rome who think they HEAR God better than anyone else does.. (insert nauseated smiley)

Also, with regard to the quote, I dont live in Afghanistan either, but that doesnt change the fact that the way women are treated there appals me and Id love to be able to do something about it. So I still care, even if its not "my religious turf" per se...or even not the religious turf that shaped me early in life, in this care.

Ax *sigh*

Heh...I believe them when they say they hear God better. For one thing, they heard his call to come and serve him. Me, I'm not listening hard enough to hear that.

But I said I wouldn't...anymore...argh. Seriously. My last post here.

I just...I don't know. I feel comfortable in my faith...you feel comfortable in yours. Now this isn't an accusation, by no means...but I wonder why all the people who are comfortable in their own faiths want so badly to talk about mine, and all its misgivings. This is an honest question. Why does everyone care so much? Because Catholicism is so huge?

Personally I don't really give a rat's arse what someone else's religion says about women....men...rats and their arses.

Well I do. Because first and foremost, before any religion, I care about human rights, and the freedom and equality of individuals. I gave an answer to your current question earlier in this thread, a few posts ago -

enchantress wrote:

Im all for different opinions, and try to not judge and let everyone coexist peacefully even in disagreement...but where a person's stance calls for hurting a group of people, with not even the mitigating circumstance of some benefit stemming from it, I have to speak up.

Women being barred from priesthood HURTS some of us. It makes us feel unwanted and excluded, and is not fair.

I dont care if you believe the sky is REALLY yellow, and the grass is REALLY purple...such a belief hurts or excludes no one. Not all beliefs need to make logical sense - the mystery of faith is lost then, even to me...but those affecting human rights and putting limits on people that should not be imposed, in my eyes, must be logically justified.
If a religion "xyz" held a tenent that said "no Polish people are allowed to be doctors in Canada" I, as many others I imagine, would have major issues with that. Its unsubstantiated, its hurtful, it yields zero extra benefit to mitigate the hurt.
Even if its not my own religion (though at least Catholicism used to be), my own rights as a woman (or this case a Polish person) are at stake, so I speak up.

I didnt go into a thread about Catholicism where you were just talking about your beliefs and start attacking them
I think I posted something about my beliefs, and then you chimed in saying something like "Ench, I dont think women should be priests" -which is totally fine, youre encouraged to do that and state your opinion, but dont get offended when I defend my position.

...and no, I dont envy Catholicism on the basis of its (declining) but still large numbers.

rodia wrote:

For one thing, they heard his call to come and serve him. Me, I'm not listening hard enough to hear that.

..lets not forget that as things are, even if you heard it, you wouldn't be able to follow it in the same way they did. Thats what this discussion is about in a large part, to me.

I didnt get offended. Thats why i said it wasn't an attack because i know it can sound like one.

Ro, I really really wish you'd stick around and discuss this. I find your perspective very interesting.

A quote from a relative:

Quote:

"I'd like to get to the point where I can be just as mediocre as a man"

Juanita Kreps, Secretary of Commerce for Jimmy Carter

There are some strong women on both sides of my family. My grandmother on my father's side died young at 96. On my mother's side, my grandmother looks like she will make it to at least 99. During the last campaign, the [losing] Democrat Governor had his picture taken with her.

I've always been around women who have seemed as strong or stronger than the men. I have no problem with a woman in any role.


Kushana,

We're lucky Iavas missed that one.

I'm waiting with trepidation for What God Wants tonight.


Why does he keep bringing up the losing Democrats?

yovargas wrote:

Ro, I really really wish you'd stick around and discuss this. I find your perspective very interesting.

First of all I shouldn't have mixed my thoughts about men and women with the priesthood talk. They're two different topics.
Unfortunately this happens often- I mix things up. I can't make it a proper discussion. I'm just not capable! I can't defend it...I can't explain it...all that I can do is get frustrated that people see it as a bad thing when I think it's good, and frustrate people by appearing to be a freak sort of misogynist.

I'm bad at serious discussions that require me to back my opinion up, and defend it. I'm just no good at it at all. This isn't a 'pity me you drove me away' act by the way, just in case someone reads it that way.. I'm telling the truth.

So instead of derailing this into my own personal problems, I'll just back out and hope everyone can just *shrug* at my opinion. Maybe someday when I grow up I'll be able to explain it. Or maybe not. It doesn't matter, everyone figures their world out for themselves.

I care about what the RCC does because it affects politics in my country, which is another way of saying it affects the fate of the planet. No other religious organization has both the centralized authority and the numbers to have such an effect.

In part because of Ratzinger's meddling, we got Bush again.

That alone pretty much condemns him in my eyes.

BTW--if the Holy Spirit is really moving the cardinals, why isn't every papacy decided on one unanimous ballot? Is the HS that incompetent at motivating the truly devoted? Or are that many of the cardinals just not devoted?

Makes sense, Ax.

And I'd say it's the latter. Not easy to listen to God.