board77

Well, since we're all talking about religion anyway...

Genesis 1:27 wrote:

And Elohim created Adam in His Image, in the Image of God He created him; male and female He created them...

One thing that has plagued me about Western religion in its traditional firms is the overwhelmingly male conception of God.

(Anecdotally: this caused great confusion for me as a toddler being taught the Lord's Prayer by my parents. After repeating the words, "Our Father, who art in heaven," I stopped to ask my parents, "Why are we praying to Dad and not Mom? And how come he's in heaven, when he's also right here?")

Although I have since figured out that the three major monotheistic religions of the world are not, in fact, praying to my father, a hint of that question still remains in my thoughts today. If we are "made in God's image", something that refers to male and female alike, then why does Western society conceive of God as predominantly or solely male in its thoughts and words?

OK, full stop. Do me a favor. Pause right now, make one statement you consider to be true about God, whether from a religious, agnostic, or atheist perspective. But, refer to God as She, rather than He. We're still talking about the same God in every other respect: Western, monotheist, Judeo-Christian, whatever. Does using "She" not instantly modulate your conception of God to some degree? Perhaps I am alone, but it very much does for me.

This is not some sort of feminist advocacy that we start praying to a "female God". Such a conception would, in my view, be no more accurate than a "male God". I have always thought that if there is a single God who created us in God's image, then, using our human senses, the most complete conception of God that we could develop would account for this one God as both male and female. After all, if we are all children created in God's image, then *who* God is must reflect all of us, regardless of our gender or gender identity, right?

Forgive me, but I must again point to Judaism. In Judaism, the Shekinah, the Divine Presence, is female, which goes some distance towards representing the male and the female expressions of the Divine. However, traditional forms of Judaism retain a primary focus on Divinity as male.

I'd be interested to hear everyone's thoughts, of course.

- TP

I've got some really bad news about God - she's black.

TheLidlessEyes wrote:

I've got some really bad news about God - she's black.

And her maternal grandmother was Chinese.

Personally, I think the world began going to hell in a handbasket when the nasty old Sky Father killed the Earth Mother. They could have just got married, but oh, no, he had to be the only one. No room for anyone else.

As if.

tolkienpurist wrote:

Does using "She" not instantly modulate your conception of God to some degree?

- TP

Yes it does. But only in good ways.

My personal opinion is that if there is a God, whatever it is is ultimately beyond our comprehension. I’ve always had problems with the notion of being created “in God’s image”, but since I find most people to be beyond my comprehension as well, the conflict is not that great.



edited to please satch

Personally I think "In the image of God" is a mental thing rather than physical.

one thing I am certain of, though... if people think it matters, then they're missing the point entirely.

As for God being Male or Female... I would guess neither. When he/she became human, though, he/she was Male

I agree with what tinwe said (I didn't have the ability to actually make the post myself ... and now that I'm actually bothering to post, you missed out a "be" in your last sentence. )

It's easier for people to speak to God as a person rather than something which created all existence that we know. Whether we address God as a male or female probably doesn't make a lot of difference in the scale of things. Whatever floats your boat, I guess.

In my mainstream Lutheran church, we avoid using pronouns for God. Not for Jesus--he actually was a man, after all--but we use circumlocutions such as "ask God for God's mercy" rather than "ask God for his mercy."

I would think it was silly, but times when I've heard services or sung hymns with the old male conceits such as "Man and his ways" and "sons of God" and "God the Father of us all," which is what I grew up with, I'm truly struck by how . . . sidelined it makes me feel. As if the whole service is aimed at people other than me. Inclusive language is not a stupid PC thing; it really does make a difference.

In my synagogue, they alternate being he and she when referring to God. I love it.

Eisler, Riane, The Chalice and the Blade (San Francisco, CA: Harper and Row, 1987) ISBN: 0-06-250289-1 (ppbk)

Wonderful book, though much of the theory is controversial. Required reading for my students.

Summary: God had a gender reassignment between 3000 and 2800 BCE as a result of southern Europe being invaded by migrating pastoralists from the steppes.

We do the book in my class because it also challenges a lot of accepted economic theory about the development of western civ - such as the inevitability of city empires with a warrior caste, the appearance of property as such, the role of weapons in the development of technology, etc.

Jn

Some years ago there was a new museum being built in Ottawa, the capital city of Canada.

It was to be called "The Museum of Mankind". When some people objected, the response was, "Well, mankind means both men and women!"

"OK," was the response to that, "then call it the Museum of Womankind, and let Womankind mean both men and women."

It was called "The Museum of Civilization".

Thus with the concept of God. The word God seems to mean Male, as a feminine deity is referred to as a Goddess, like a Waitress, or Actress.

If someone says God to me, I am pretty sure that person means a Male deity. Almost certain, almost certainly.

Prim - I think you put it best, regarding inclusive language. And it's true everywhere, not just religion. For example, I take major issue with statutes that use masculine pronouns when their intent is gender-neutral. (Insert some guys jumping up and waving their "you're being PC" flag here.) PC or not, I find it downright insulting that it's ok to include women by implication under masculine pronouns -- until and unless guys are ok with "she" being used to refer to males and females, inclusive. When it all goes one direction, it does sideline the group(s) not included.

But that point aside, back to God:

Jn - that sounds wonderful. Is your synagogue affiliated, and if so, with what denomination? In my experience, gender-neutral language is very much the norm in Reform and Reconstructionist synagogues, but with Conservative synagogues, it's luck of the draw. We do not speak of the Orthodox

satch (and halplm) - referring to the Divine as one gender or another isn't the most pressing problem humankind is facing right now, definitely Still, if religion, spirituality, faith are important -- and to many people, they are -- then the way we envision God is of some importance. In referring to "God the Father", "Our Father, who art in heaven", "Glory be to the Father", "He created all things", and more, one does develop a gendered notion of who God is. Here's why I think it matters:

(1) When we think of God in all-male terms, we give Him a male nature, characterizing it as Divine. When we fail to acknowledge God in female terms, we do not elevate the corresponding female nature to the same level - for no valid reason that I can see. I know this had an effect on me from the time I was a young child, and I'm sure that it affects the way many young boys and girls see the world.
(2) "God the Father", and in Christian traditions, "God the Son" together give us a purely male conception of God. Whether or not we were actually created "in God's image" (and I do realize this is metaphorical, not literal) - if there is a Creator God, both male and female came from this God - and a "Father/Son" conception entirely ignores the female that came from God. Yes, I know that Jesus was born a man; I wasn't objecting to using male pronouns to refer to Jesus

tinwe - ITA.

Lidless and vison - I'm sure some people who consider themselves religious would say you'd committed blasphemy BTW, in case anyone hadn't heard, Jesus was a lily-white Caucasian. Why must humankind be so narcissistic?

EDIT because people responded after I started posting:

Anthriel - see above for why I have a major problem with "man" generically indicating man and woman. I will cease to have a problem when "woman" generically indicates man and woman, and not until then. vison also puts it well.

Also, I don't think that referring to God as "he" or "she" refers to a "sexual identity" at all; it's just that there are attributes commonly considered "male" or "female", and when we refer to God as one or the other, for many, it will evoke that set of attributes.

Oh, and as for the Genesis quote, that was taken from a Torah, not a Bible; makes a big difference in translation sometimes

- TP

Ah, well put.

The word man obviously DOES make a big difference, and I will think about that some more on my own time.

Back to making dinner...

TP - nominally Conservative, so it was the luck of the draw. But I should probably put them on a cusp, because the choir does 'special performances' about once every two months and there are musical instruments involved. These are relegated to the Friday night service, because people would object if instruments were played on Saturday. It's not logical, it's culture-in-transition. The service is in Hebrew, which would be atypical of a Reform service, I think. I've only been to one, and it was all in English.

And I've only been to one orthodox-orthodox service in all my life, in Israel on Yom Kippur because there was nothing else to pick from. If having the women stand in a separate room is not enough to make you run screaming in the opposite direction ....

But I don't see a whole lot of difference between modern American orthodox and Conservative beyond the smecha of the Rabbi ... or perhaps that's also the luck of the draw. I did belong to an orthodox synagogue for awhile where the women were integrated and people drove to the service, etc. Membership was more a matter of liking the rabbi than a matter of observance.

Jn

Men and women were often segregated in Christian churches, in the past. And in some they are to this very day.

There are a lot of Mennonites in my neighbourhood. Not the kind of Old Order Mennonites also called Amish, but the kind known as Haldeman Mennonites. They are plain dressers, but not so plain as the Amish. The Haldeman Mennonites have electric lights and automobiles. Car dealerships here bring in special order sedans and pickups for them, dark colours, and no radios or ashtrays, they cost a little more. Men sit in one part of the church, women in the other. They sing beautiful harmony, but even in their very conservative churches "bands" are making inroads. They keep themselves to themselves, but we've had Haldeman neighbours for years and kinder and better people you would never meet. They "mission" in Guatemala and Mexico, and there are now a few Haldemen men married to women from those countries. They maintain a loose and friendly affiliation with the less conservative Mennonites. But even the really liberal Mennonites aren't supposed to dance!! I don't get it. I just don't get it.

There are a lot of Mennonites near where I live--grass-seed farmers, mostly. A Mennonite woman writes a periodic column in the local paper. They strike me as solid, grounded people who do derive plenty of pleasure from life--just from simpler things.

What I'm trying to say is, I don't think they see their lifestyle as one of sacrifice and deprivation. Our newspaper columnist clearly considers her life extraordinarily rich. She writes wisely about farm life and family life and living with teenagers (apparently Mennonite teenagers are still teenagers) and is funny and compassionate and, frankly, reminds me very strongly of you, vison.

My memory is that the Holy Spirit, a member of the Trinity along with God the Father and God the Son, has been considered to be feminine since the time of Solomon. I also remember some supposed links to Diana. I haven't researched this myself. This sounds like a question for Kushana.

In my part of the world, God is most definately male. This doesn't seem to trouble people because, generally speaking, we don't bother with God much. Instead, when we go to church (Greek Orthodox) or pray or communicate with the divine in any sense, we address Panayia - the Virgin Mary. The Orthodox belief is that Panayia is not a goddess and is never treated as such by the people. However, she is seen as the mediator between God the Father and people the children. And, as everyone knows from experience, when a child wants a favour from a loving but stern father it is always a good move to approach him through an all loving mother.

Id. - There could be something there in what you say about the Holy Spirit. In the service of the Epiphania (Epiphany?) the Holy Spirit is said to descend in the shape of a peristera i.e. a female dove. And one of the gifts that it brings to people is sophia i.e. wisdom - a quality that has always been considered a female one in the Greek world.

Vison - The Greek Orthodox Church still practices gender segregation during the service. Of course no one will shout at me or disapprove of my action if I cannot find a seat at the women's section and go and sit down at the men's. There is also an elevated section at the back of the church for women only. That's the best place to sit because it has the best view. And you can talk as much as you like without having the priest frown at you.

Andri wrote:

There is also an elevated section at the back of the church for women only. That's the best place to sit because it has the best view. And you can talk as much as you like without having the priest frown at you.

This is what drives me crazy about gender-segregated services where the men are the only ones leading prayers! I have been to such Orthodox (Jewish) services, with separate seating, and the women's section continually talks. I'd be there to pray, and they'd be sitting around and talking about Shabbat dinner and the kids. Why they couldn't be courteous and go outside, I don't know, but being able to talk is not a perk of gender-segregated seating as far as I'm concerned...it's an inconvenience to those who want to talk outside of services and pray within. /rant

- TP

The nature of god, whether it be male or female, is really not an issue in my life. It's an interesting topic for discussion, but it means nothing on a personal level.

I am always interested in people, interested in what they do and why they do it. I'm not really concerned with the doings of Wizards and Kings and Elven Lords; if I lived in Middle Earth I'd be a Hobbit. Gossip, that's my cup of tea.

History is usually the tale of the Great Doings. But the history I care about is the history of Mrs. Smith, who gets dinner for Mr. Smith every day, who washes clothes and sweeps floors and worries about little Billy Smith's cough. Mrs. Farmer, who stooks the corn while so heavily pregnant she can scarcely bend over to pick up the sheaves. Mrs. Tailor, who goes blind sewing on the seams of dresses for the rich lady of the village.

Those women, and all their sisters, have been left out of the books, and worse (worse for them, at any rate), they were left out of god's reckoning, too. Women, in our "culture" have been designated as sisters and daughters of Eve, Eve who heard the serpent's tempting and ate the apple and caused the Fall. Eve, that vessel of sin, helpless before the lusts of her body, that body made to lure men into sin. "The woman made me do it," Adam said. We despise Adam, we women, but he's supposed to be our master. Women knew/know that Adam is "the weaker vessel", but god set Adam to rule us, we are to Adam what Adam is supposed to be to god.

Mary, the mother of Jesus, is the feminine face of the church, as far as I'm concerned. A virgin, miraculously impregnated by the will of god. I think I understand that Mary herself was born of an "immaculate conception", that she was conceived without sin?

So even the feminine face of the church is horrible to me! Mary was not a woman, she was a child, a virgin child, she had not yet given in to the vile lusts of her weak female body. She was that unreal construct, The Virgin Madonna, and all other women are the other thing: The Whore. And Mary is supposed to make women think they are important to the church? Certainly women are important: since it's our fault that men lust after us and our sin-filled bodies, we have to bear the consequences, forever.

What would Adam have done without Eve? Adam would still be wandering like a loon around Eden, lonely maybe, but sinless. He'd chat with his Creator now and again, and then mooch off to pet the bunnies and the kitties. He'd eat the banquet laid before him, drink the water in the fountains, sleep like a baby. He'd BE a baby.

It's such an absurdity, and yet, centuries full of wise and thoughtful men have built this little Legoland, and have been pissed off at The Woman for spoiling it all.