board77

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Has anyone been able to listen to the DVD-Audio disc yet?

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I was pretty impressed, though some parts sounded different to the film?

The Tennis Ball Kid wrote:

So...it's been a couple weeks, what do you all think?

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Ok gang,

I’m just back in town now. I’ll dig into questions tonight in earnest, but for now a quick—and yes, important!—update. A couple of key people had to be away this week on personal business, so while there won’t yet be an official statement in the press, Howard just called to ask me to let you know that…

The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers – The Complete Recordings will be available in late October, 2006.

So spread the word. You’ve got less than three months to wait now!

Back later,

-Doug

Doug Adams wrote:

Hi everyone,

Let’s take a long overdue look at some of these questions, shall we?

>>>The first 30 seconds of ROTK are really just referencing a new type of hobbit music for Sméagol and Déagol. But really, as in Two Towers, these opening bars are more setting style and mood.

Ah! Good to know. But why does this theme return a couple of times then?>>>

Gkgyver, could you possibly provide a specific instance so I can answer more directly?

>>>And what do we learn from this? Doug better be careful about his comments or he'll ultimately cause a war.>>>

Yeah, I’m slowly starting to get this!

>>>By the way, I've always wanted to ask you if you know anything about Shore's differences with PJ on Kong?>>>

I’m going to gave to go with the standard, “No comment,â€

Doug Adams wrote:

Hi everyone,

Responses have been slow lately because I’m knee-deep in Annotated Score materials right now. And I mean that pretty darn literally… Nearly every square inch of desk space, floor space and bulletin board real estate in my office is currently covered with CDs, DVDs, post-its, emails, music dictionaries, orchestration texts, Tolkien’s novel, spreadsheets, texts, staff paper, iPods, headphones, minidisks… and there’s probably a Taco Bell wrapper and a beer bottle or two under the bottom layers. I try to call it the “detritus of endeavor,” but it probably looks more like someone dropped a Staples on my house from a great distance.

With that said, I’m going to try to answer a handful of questions here tonight… but I’ll be doing somewhat a hyper-efficient answer-a-thon. Short and sweet is the name of the game tonight, so please no one be offended with curt answers, ok? And if I miss yours, please let me know and I’ll get you on the next round.

>>>Any reaction to having a cd (incl. with the book) of illustrating the commentary, or would that so delay and complicate matters as to be beyond reason? Again, I am thinking of Deryck Cooke's famous commentary on Wagner's Ring, which is of course an audio commentary with illustrations on the leitmotivs in Der Ring. So it might be just the themes, helpful for those not up to reading musical notation, or even some live on tape Doug Adams insights.....>>>

We’ve talked a bit about including bonus material with the book, and it’s certainly not out of the question. Book talks will heat up soon, I think. I know I have a number of calls to return on it, and these will all be addressed as soon as TTT is put to bed… although the window between TTT and ROTK looks to be pretty small!

>>>Now, that ROTK theme I mentioned can distinctly be heard a couple of times:
first over the title sequence, then over Frodo's line "The days are growing darker" (or around that time), then when Frodo and Sam pass the statue of the fallen king ("these lands were once part of the kingdom of Gondor") and finally after the argument at the pool, when Frodo grabs Gollum's hand (this could be just my perception though).>>>

Interesting insights. Let me see if I can shed some light.

Film’s opening:

Bb Dd F Dd Eb Bb Bb C

“The days are growing darker…”

C Eb G Ab Bb C D

“These lands were once a part of the Kingdom of Gondor…”

F Ab C Bb

They’re not all exactly the same motive as you can see, but they are all are based on arpeggiated minor triads. In a sense, they could potentially be related to the Pity of Gollum theme… especially in the second’s case… But they could also just be minor triads, which certainly are all over the score without any leitmotivic repercussions.

So which will be the final verdict? Time will tell!

>>>Oh, about the rubber knub! Are you aware that you indirectly told us there will be a DVD in the set, just like in FOTR's?>>>

Yep, I’m quite aware!

>>>Well, I have a strong desire for one in particular but, thinking it was a capella, I was a bit crestfallen. I just went and listened to a clip and realized that 'music' does sort of creep in at the end.>>>

>>>I do think it is interesting that there is such a change from the FOTR set, which contained every song heard in the film, even those that the music didn't conform to (Bilbo singing "The Road Goes Ever On" as he leaves Bag End). Was this a specific decision?>>>

I’ll say one more thing about the cast performance, then I’ll probably let it drop until the press release gives it away. There was no conscious effort on this release to move away from cast performances, it just worked out that way. The cast performances that weren’t used just didn’t work in context with the score. They were too short, came out of nowhere, went nowhere, and plopped in the middle of an hour of orchestral / choral music, felt uncomfortably out of place. Yes, they were tried, yes I heard them, and no, they didn’t really work. The one that remains fits in quite beautifully with its surroundings, is quite musical in its own right, and feels part of an organic whole.

It’s really quite lovely, and I think it’ll hit the spot for all of you. It did for me, anyway.

>>>Mr.Adams, that must've taken some time...thanks for answering so many questions. It's great to know that TTT:CR's price will be somewhere around what FOTR:CR's is. And thanks for replying about the colour concern too. I can't wait to see how TTT:CR tops FOTR:CRs design. As a designer (software...mind you), I didn't think that was possible - which is not necessarily a bad thing, because I'm *only* 22 and have a lot to learn anyway.>>>

Seeing as I’m fewer than 10 years older than you, I’ll have to politely request you remove the “Mr.” from my name! I once joked with Shore that I was upset that Emiliana Torrini was younger than me, and he started laughing. “Get used to it! Just wait until the cops start calling you ‘sir!’”

>>>If only for the excellent performance of Sissel during the solo's (wich I think are much better than on the soundtracks).>>>

Just as an FYI, I don’t think Sissel has performed the symphony for a while now. Kaitlyn Lusk has been doing the honors for some time. And her proud father is always front and center at the performances cheering her on. Very nice fellow.

>>>1) Does this edition fit on 3 CD, or we'll have another extra CD?>>>

I can’t say yet, but the citizens of this board have done a good job figuring the math on this.

>>>2) Are the mock ups of the packaging you have seen similar to these photoshoped images from this spanish blog?>>>

Ah that cursed Spanish blog! Actually, they did a very nice job with it. I’m sure you’ll see some mock-ups before the set is released. Design isn’t done yet, however. Everything is still being tweaked right now. In fact, they’ve just requested a slightly new shade of… uh, the color the cover is… to compare with the current edition. Whew, that was a close one.

>>>QUESTIONS FOR DOUG ADAMS: Will the End Credits music on the CR be like the OST or the film? On track 12 of TTT: OST, there's a choral part that comes in (during the warg attack) and it isn't there in the film. Instead, there is the hardinger fiddle. Will the CR have (all of) the choral part at a "reasonable" volume? (I absolutely love that choral part!!! It has such a beautiful, ethereal quality to it.) Thank you, Doug.>>>

Like the FOTR set, the TTT end credits will not include the DVD fan scroll music since that music is already on the set in its proper place. No point in making people pay twice for the same music, right? As for the Warg piece, you will hear it as Shore originally composed it. There’s quite a bit of tracking in that section of the film… even including some music from the first film.

>>>The pics on that link up there look great...I'm inclined to believe those aren't fake for atleast one reason. When I asked Doug whether the discs would be blue, his answer was an indirect "No". And I'm not complaining. The pics do show that though everything (physical packaging included) is the same, the discs retain their cream colour.

Of course, with Photoshop, I could've made those pics from off FOTR:CR (why does the THE TWO TOWERS text look a strange shade of yellow to me?? Maybe its just the cones in my eyes)

But Gandalf looks GREAT!!!>>>

Just repeating here to soothe my weary mind… these pics are fake. Any pics you will see of the set right now are fake. Even if you break into Warner Brothers and steal the current designs, you won’t see what will be available in October, because the design is not yet done.

By the way, please don’t break into Warner Brothers. People tend to frown upon things like that.

Oh, and yes, I know no one claimed these pics were real in the first place. I think things quickly got misconstrued on our multilingual board here, however.

>>>Question for Doug Adams:
Is that Ugluk or Lurtz? :-)>>>

It’s Uglúk, of course. And don’t forget the accent on the “u,” you’ll need it to properly type the track titles in a few months.

>>>Hi I live in Australia and I've got a question for Doug or anyone else who might know. Will the TTT CR be released in Australia? The FOTR CR wasn't released here and I had to get it sent in from the US which took 2 months. I'm wondering if it'll be the same with TTT CR. Thanks>>>

Honestly, I don’t know, simply because that’s not anywhere near my end of things. I do know, however, that there’s going to be an effort to have a greater number of units physically available in stores this time out, so people don’t have order off the Internet almost exclusively. I don’t know if this extends to international outlets, but let’s keep our fingers crossed.

>>>I've always wondered why none of the TTT sets figured Saruman outside/inside them. I mean, he's the driving force behind the invasion of Westfold and this was his war and his defeat. And he was the Head of the White Council, even if he did stray from his path So was just wondering...>>>

It’s all a matter of what high res pictures New Line has on hand, and what looks the most dynamic. In the case of covers, obviously the image has to be something iconic and representative of film’s story as a whole.

>>>Maybe he's allowed to spread news only after the press release.However on the last post he said that more news will come as soon as there's more time.Or another way of saying ...as soon as the "big bosses" allow to.>>>

>>>I wanted to know whether Mr.Shore recorded complete songs or just parts of them, particularly the Rivendell version of A Elbereth Gilthoniel - of which we hear only the first and last two lines when the Fellowship is in RIvendell, Namarie and The Song of Luthien (Elven version - just two lines again??).>>>

What you hear is what there is, for the most part. The songs were all written as part of the score, not as freestanding pieces which were arranged into the full piece. So nothing is being left out. However, the texts *were*in fact written this way, so the Annotated Score material will always list the entire choral text, even if not everything was set to music in the long run.

>>>Or maybe the "big bosses" found out that he leaked the release date. Will we ever see him again?>>>

Howard Shore called and asked me to please announce that people could expect a late October release. I’m relatively sure I was in the clear on that one. 

>>>I came back from my 7-day vacation expecting to find a press release and everyone counting down the seconds until TTT. Oh, well. I guess I didn't miss anything when I was gone.>>>

>>>Well at least we know month of release...October 2006.>>>

Sorry guys, the press release will come out when it comes out, I guess. I’m not a part of that loop, and as I’ve said before, I know some people had to take care of personal issues, so that clearly takes precedence. But hey, look at it this way… I said late October. CDs always come out on Tuesdays. There are five Tuesday’s in October. So if you take your early October, mid October and late October Tuesdays, you’re not going to have to work too hard to guess pretty close to the right date.

>>>Now, now, all you hasty hobbits... hoom hommmm!
Let's take this as a sign that Doug is soooo busy putting finishing touches on his liner notes and score annotations for that IMPENDING deadline (ahem!) that he just can't spare a moment to quiet all this orcish racket! ;-)
Or that like Bilbo he needs a little peace and quiet without all us S[o]B's hanging on the bell all day, so he can finish up and live happily ever after, to the end of his days.......>>>

I’m still more in the Hunched Over the Table, Quill in Hand mode, I think. Happily ever after is still a bit off!

See you next time!

-Doug

Doug Adams wrote:

Hi everyone,

I do believe I owe you a round of answers and updates. Can’t say I’ve got an overwhelming amount of news to report, but here goes:

>>>I'm quite confident (knowing absolutely nothing, obviously) that we'll have ROTK by the end of 2007.>>>

This is indeed true. ROTK’s release window is already tentatively set.

>>>By the way, I don't think I like the prospect of having a track that includes "Uglùk".
But I got used to "The Fighting Uruk- Hai" too, so maybe it won't be that bad.>>>

There are more TTT tracks than FOTR tracks, so the names can be slightly more specific. Oh, and Uglúk’s accent needs to point the other way!

>>>Hey *Doug* (I think I'm missing something...oh, its the Mr. ) thanks for the answers. Still a bit curious though. You said that "the image has to be something iconic and representative of film’s story as a whole". True. But wouldn't that image of Saruman defeated by Gandalf be great? The one from ROTK:EE, when his staff is broken and he has those tears in his dark eyes? Sorry for playing the pest.>>>

Oh, I didn’t mean to suggest that Saruman wasn’t used because he wasn’t iconic, I was just explaining the thought behind the cover shots that *were* used. You’ll just have to wait to see who or what makes the covers this time out.

>>>there is also the big chance that this release will be like last time with FOTR being pushed back from november to december, therefore TTT might get put back into november.>>>

The elements that precipitated the FOTR delay are not in any way attached to TTT.

>>>ALSO FOR DOUG - NOT THAT THIS MIGHT BE A BIG ISSUE BUT WHATS UP WITH HOWARD SHORES SITE, THATS BEEN IN THE LAUNCHING PEROID FOR CLOSE TO A YEAR NOW>>>

I’m afraid I don’t have any info on this. Dan Goldwasser and Warm Butter are behind the Howard Shore site… with Shore’s own crew supervising in the wings. I’m sure the site will launch when they feel the time is right, but even that is a presumption on my part. I’m not in that world.

>>>although the window between TTT and ROTK looks to be pretty small!<<<

>>>You sure got us talking on this little blurb, Doug!>>>

As the best I can do is offer a blurb now and then, I try to choose them carefully!

>>>I can't wait to hear the Warg scene as Shore scored it, it will be interesting to play it as the movie rolls on this scene...>>>

Homemade isolated TTT scores will offer a very enlightening look into this film’s process, I think. You’ll be amazed at how many little bits here and there were altered in some way. I’m working my way through the Annotated Score material now, and I think that for Disc One alone I’ve created nearly 10 “Unused Concept” boxes.

>>>Hmmmm, what will the track title be, "Ugluk Adds to the Menu">>>

>>>*One of the track titles has the word "Ugluk" in it.>>>

Darn it, what have you guys got against that accent over the “u”!?

>>>For Mr. Adams, our great hero... ....About the End Credit question I had...I wasn't talking about the Fan Club Credits, but the End Credits. I know that the FC Credits music will not be on the CR, of course, but I was asking about the section of tracked music during the End Credits. It's something like this:

OST(trk 19)
Gollum's Song
Eowyn's Theme
Rohan Theme & End

FILM
Gollum's Song
(tracked from TT)
Eowyn's Theme
Seduction of the Ring Theme
Forth Eorlingas-Beginning
Diminishment of the Elves Theme(FOTR trkd)
Rivendell Theme
Evenstar
('regular')
Rohan Theme & End>>>

Well, let’s just say that the OST version was cut down and the Film version had some tracked in bits. You’ll hear what Shore originally wrote, which exists somewhere in between.

>>>Also, about the Wolves of Isengard "cue" , in the film it has the Isengard theme before going silent with the smack of the 2 forces. Is that Isengard rendition from FOTR or original??? (I'm thinking of the 2nd use of the theme in FOTR, during the Pass of Caradhras...hmmmm...)>>>

There are a large number of changes in this composition, so I’ll just say, without being too specific, you *will* hear the Isengard theme. I’ll be freer with details another time.

>>>I don't know if this has been discussed in this thread yet (and apologies if it has been), but I don't know why Reprise went with a different color scheme than what New Line established for the entire rest of the Trilogy merchandising: green for FOTR, rust for TTT, and blue for ROTK. This is especially odd considering that both Reprise and New Line are TimeWarner subsidiaries.>>>

You know, this was honestly all decided before I was in the fold, so I don’t know where the color decisions came from. In fact, the only color story I ever heard while the project was ongoing was that they considered making ROTK gold. Now, I don’t know if that was the DVD or the CD… but, I did overhear the discussion.

>>>Except that line by Doug about the window between TTT:CR and ROTK:CR being small. Sounds interesting. I think that would be because there's just so much music in ROTK as compared to FOTR and TTT. Also, couple that with the work that needs to be done on the Book, if they're planning on a simultaneous release (alongwith a "rarities disc" huh??) and a year seems a pretty short time to get so much done.>>>

You’re pretty close with all this. Overlapping projects and release dates will keep everyone quite busy for the coming months.

>>>I don't get it.How could the reason for the small window between TTT and ROTK be the fact that there's more work on ROTK:CR?Shouldn't be the contrary?Anyway,if Mr. Adams said that the window will be small,then there's a good reason to be happy.And i am.>>>

“Small window” here refers to a very brief pause in the process… meaning that ROTK is going to be so enormous that everyone’s going to move almost immediately from TTT to early ROTK work. No one’s going to be resting between projects for long!

>>>I own all the soundtracks of the Lord of the Rings films and I love them. It's mind blowing to think how Howard Shore could compose such beautiful music.
Last year I had purchased the complete score of the FOTR. I was somewhat dissappointed with the packaging. Why is it so flimsy? Mine tore at the sides. Why did they have to use cheap cardboard?>>>

Sorry you’ve had trouble, Pierre. I don’t think the boxed set is designed to be a portable product, more of a shelf item. I’m guessing I’ve open and closed my copy about as many times as anyone, checking and rechecking things here and there, and it still looks brand new. But I’m sure if I started taking it on the road with me… well I know how *I* feel if I’m on the road too long!

>>>My one wish is to perhaps see released on DVD film footage of Howard Shore conducting the LPO during the recording sessions. Interviews, etc. Something like behind the scenes footage and something similar to what we saw on the DVD that came with the ROTK soundtrack. Any hopes/chances of seeing such a DVD released in the future?>>>

Maybe. The publishers are definitely interested in including some sort of multimedia content with the book.

>>>P.S.: Did anyone notice this http://derhobbit-film.de/indexengl.shtml ?I wonder if(if it's true) Mr. Howard Shore will come back to Middle-earth to compose the music for The Hobbit?>>>

The Hobbit, should it actually materialize, is probably a good number of years away. That said, I know that Shore has expressed an interest…

>>>I doubt Howard Shore ever wrote exclusive credits material, let alone record it.

Howard wrote the gorgeous Bilbo's Song for the ROTK fan credits, that's appropriate because it marks a sad goodbye to the fans. And I'm quite happy with that.>>>

Yes, he wrote that beautiful, beautiful theme… it’s the absolutely final variation on the Shire material and it could turn a stone-hearted cynic into a poet. I remember getting a call from London during the ROTK DVD recording sessions. They had a few questions for me regarding fan scroll music, and mentioned at the time, “Oh, Howard wrote one more song for the boys.” I was shocked, because he wasn’t in the practice of writing new pieces for the credits. “He just felt like he should.” How great is that?

Other than the songs, Shore didn’t write any new “material” for the credits in terms of new themes, but many the arrangements are unique to the credits. I particularly love the setting of the Rohan Fanfare that ends TTT’s credits.

>>>I think a more pertinent question would be: what is the release date for The Hobbit: The Complete Recordings?>>>

I’m sending my Starbucks tab to your house…

>>>I'm really eager to have a look at the design. If they really outdid Fellowship, that thing must definitely be something.>>>

You’ll definitely recognize it as FOTR’s progeny. But, I think it’s even more sophisticated in the details.

>>>DOUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHERE ARE YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU??????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Surely you're not busy on a Saturday?!>>>

I was! And I will be again this weekend.

>>>MORE NEWS IS NEEDED, ITS ALMOST GOING TO BE 2 MONTHS UNTIL THE TTT IS DUE AND STILL THERE IS NOTHING ABSOLUTELY OFFICIAL EXCEPT A SUPPOSED RELEASE TIME>>>

Well, if makes you feel any better, I’m listening to the complete edit of TTT as I’m typing this.

Ok, that probably didn’t make you feel much better. Sorry!

Everything is moving ahead. I’ve been very hard at work on the Annotated Score. As I mentioned above, there’s an enormous amount to discuss in this one.

The latest draft of the liners just came in from Warners this afternoon, so after a quick trip to the gym, I’ll spend the rest of my night proofing it. From a very cursory scan, it looks like most of the layout issues have been resolved, so things are very, very close.

>>>I say we buy the man a beer! Three cheers for Doug!!!

Actually, we should buy him a six pack of his favorite kind!>>>

Well, since this is Tolkien, shouldn’t that be nine beers? In fact, we’ll talk about that a bit in the liners… nine, that is, not beer. Beer won’t even be mentioned until the final example of Dwarf music is heard in ROTK.

On second thought, let’s keep away from the beer for right now. I seem to have enough trouble keeping on the subject as is!

>>>'nother question for ya, Doug: I know Howard "pays homage" to Wagner at the very end of ROTK, but does he "pay homage" to Rosenman(animated LOTR score, I'm sure you know that )??? Thanks a bunch!>>>

Wagner’s is really the only homage Shore’s placed in the score. But what a moment, eh?

>>>I rewatched the scoring featurette on the TTT extended DVD.
Now this one's for Doug: PJ says that there are actually just 10 or 11 minutes of old themes in TTT, but surely he must be mistaken? Or does he just count the clear, obvious statements?>>>

To be perfectly honest, I think this was a bit of spin. There was a big fuss regarding the Oscars and Shore’s Two Towers score. Basically, there was a ruling that came out of the music division that year that disqualified sequel scores because it said they often relied on past music, and because people were already familiar with the music, it would give these scores an unfair advantage with the voters. So off the bat, Two Towers was disqualified. Of course, as we know, that’s nonsense. Shore’s score includes references to past themes, but it doesn’t repeat *any* large scale passages verbatim. The score is an entirely new composition, and in fact one of its great strengths is its continued development of established thematic material mixed with entirely new thematic material, all set in entirely new compositions.

Anyway, Shore stated his case and was asked to write a paper to the Academy explaining and clarifying his position. Much of the LOTR crew got behind this and really pushed to make sure people understood that TTT was an entirely new score. (Unfortunately, the buzz about TTT being disqualified was a bit much to overcome, and Shore’s score never was nominated anyway.) Jackson was still very much in this mindset when TTT’s DVD material was being prepared, and since he is not a trained musician (though he has great instincts), he was enthusiastically praising Shore’s originality, though perhaps not in the most musically accurate way.

>>>Then, on the same documentary, we hear a fragment of an alternate version of Sawise The Brave. Any chance of hearing the full piece on the CR? Also, in the same "alternate version" vein, as Mr. Brouceck (can't remember his first name) tells us that Howard Shore is incredibly busy as a composer because he orchestrates and conducts, we see Howard conducting an alternate version of the scene in which Merry tells Pippin there won't be a Shire anymore. It has a richer orchestration with gentle horns.
If I'm not mistaken, the film version of this "cue" is tracked into the "It's the one place we're trying to get to" scene. Or the other way around.>>>

Good question here. (Mr. Broucek is Paul Broucek, by the way, New Line’s Executive In Charge of Music for the LOTR films and a big part of the reason that Shore was able to express himself the way he was. Broucek has been an absolutely tireless supporter of these scores, and of the Music of LOTR book as well.)

Anyway, in the case of the alternate Samwise the Brave piece, this was an entirely different composition that wasn’t used in the final film. You’ll have to wait a bit to see what happens with this recording (sorry, no hints on this one yet!), but when you listen to your TTT:CR set, you’ll hear the film version in the appropriate spot.

If music was trimmed or a small section tracked in the final film, you’ll hear the appropriate measures restored to the way Shore wrote them. If there’s a completely alternate composition, you’ll hear the composition with which you’re familiar in the sequence.

In the case of the Merry scene, this was not an alternate composition, just an alternate couple of measures that were investigated, then abandoned. Neither Shore not Jackson were completely satisfied, and so these few measures were rewritten until both men were happy. This was all part of the process, however. Sometimes two beats were rewritten. Sometimes a composition would be performed both with a solo instrument included, and with that instrument excluded. Sometimes Shore would conduct the orchestra to elicit a slightly different dynamic in the performance. These types of things will not be heard—for now—because they’re really part of the sketchpad of the LOTR scores. You may hear some of this one day, so that you can hear how the shape of a five minute composition was altered when three measures at 2:37 seconds were tweaked over the course of 15 takes. But there are terabytes of this stuff, and someone would need to go through it all and find which examples are actually interesting and illustrative of some point before it could go before an audience. After all, you don’t want to hear 939 takes where one instrument is slightly out of tune, right? This is why I always chuckled a little when people fussed over the non-literal use of the term “Complete Recordings.” The literal complete recordings would run about 30 discs per score, and require you to pay over a thousand dollars for hours and hours of flubbed takes.

>>>And I've also got a purely musical question about FOTR's liner notes: in the analysis of the Fellowship theme, you mention that the melody itself is in a minor mode, while its harmonisation is in major.
My question is: how do you (with the "you" being not personal) know the melody is in minor? Don't you need a chord or a chord progression to determine minor or major? I would think that since the harmonisation is in major, the theme is also in major ... ? >>>

Well, let’s look at this from two ways. First, pitches do not need to be stacked vertically (i.e. chordally) in order to indicate a certain harmony. Play a major scale. Play a minor scale. Right there you can understand the harmonic implications without ever actually playing harmony. It’s harmony by context.

Now take a D-natural minor scale: D E F G A Bb C D

(There are other D-minor scales, incidentally, such as D-harmonic minor, which includes a C#. You could also use a B-natural and a C#, which would be D-melodic minor. These are both byproducts of functional harmony. The scale we’re talking about here is D-natural minor… or, modally speaking, D Aolian. There many other modes available as well… Miles Davis used a little D Dorian here and there to great effect. If you’re really interested it stretching your harmonic sense, I’d suggest you pick up Slonimsky’s Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns, which is just fascinating.

Anyway, the above scale is unquestionably minor, yes? So what if I were to harmonize it as (one chord per note):

D Major
C Major
F Major
Eb Major
F Major
Eb Major
C Major
D Major

There, I’ve harmonized a minor scale with major (and slightly Shore-esque) harmonies. If that D-minor scale is my theme, then I’d just have pulled off the same trick Shore did with the Fellowship theme.

The Fellowship theme, however, is far more diverse and interesting than my boring minor scale “theme,” but I’m sure you get the point.

D is clearly the tonic pitch in this theme. The key signature will carry one flat (if a key signature is to be used… often chromatic writing such as this ignores that nicety altogether). So to the eye, if would look the same as F Major (the parallel major), but a quick harmonic reading will show you that you’re in D.

This isn’t really too innovative or unusual—John Williams uses the same type of effect for the opening bars of the Imperial March—but Shore certainly makes the most of it. I should point out that the theme isn’t always harmonized like this. There are time when Shore simply lets the theme be totally minor, especially when things are looking grim for the Fellowship.

As for the question of the dominant, you’re right, the Fellowship theme doesn’t close with a V – i cadence. It closes III – VII – i. But even that isn’t too unusual if you consider all the modal medieval music written before Bach and his ilk began to standardize functional Western harmony.

So now Shore’s concept of ancient / modern music really begins to make sense, huh?

Doug Adams wrote:

Hi everyone,

A spare moment has deposited itself on my doorstep – the TTT liners are done! And I mean actually done. Content, layout, everything. Fittingly, the final tweak was the placement of my name… because it had been set so as to make it appear that a picture of a marimba was labeled “Doug Adams.” (Even more confusing, it was an Adams brand marimba!)

So start your eye exercises now… there’s a whole bunch of tiny-fonted text coming your way soon!

>>>Doug. If there were going to be a multimedia aspect to your book, I would like to advocate for having audio examples of some of the musical concepts you discuss in the liner notes and, to a small extent, just now. Chords, harmonys, minor, major... I know what those words mean but I don't have enough musical knowledge to apply them in a meaningful way. I could almost cry when I see conversations like this and know that this is exciting stuff and I'm missing it all.>>>

I just had a conversation with Mr. Shore late last week regarding multimedia content with the book, and he had some *really* exciting ideas. Even with my grand plans, I was left asking, “Really, we can do that!?” Nothing’s solid yet, but that’s the next big thing to tackle, and it’s looking to be amazing!

>>>I'm hesitant to ask questions because I'm so aware of the fine line you walk with information. But this one's itching to be asked. You wrote: "Other than the songs, Shore didn’t write any new “material” for the credits in terms of new themes, but many the arrangements are unique to the credits." You've indicated Bilbo's Song was written especially for the credits but you used songs/plural. Does that mean that the song Sissel sings was also written for the credits? I can live with waiting for CR-ROTK, but the subject came up.>>>

The Sissel piece was written for the post-battle Fields of Pelennor and the Houses of Healing. Arwen’s song wasn’t originally going to be in there. And yes, of course, we’ll get to all the specific details in ROTK: CR.

>>>I'm also wondering about a song title for TTT that appeared in the Music for the Movies issue devoted to LOTR called "The Deeping Wall". It gave Elizabeth Frasier as the singer but it also lists Haldir's Lament and The March of the Ents so it can't be either of those two pieces. Was this some wrong information or is this something that gets illuminated in the CR-TTT?>>>

Sometimes a text would get one title, but the composition in which it was used would get another. You’ll even notice in the FOTR: CR credits there will be some “also known as” credits regarding texts and such. Most this was due to the legal filing of the cue sheets and copyrights. For example, the text would have its title (as decided by Philippa or Fran or Tolkien), the composition would have one title, it would get another title when edited into the OST, then another title again as it was entered into the CR. So there are a lot of multiple titles out there. (Sometimes there were even alternate text titles to deal with as well!) The Haldir’s Lament text was used inside the composition (originally) titled “The Deeping Wall.”

>>>Doug, once again, thank you for your insight! For someone who says that they don't have much info that sure was a lengthy post!>>>

I’m a fast… and lousy… typist.

>>>One question for you, have you ever pitched the idea to Howard Shore for a Q&A session here on the boards? Maybe to conincide with the release of TTT:CR? Of course this would be dependant on H.S.'s available time.>>>

Honestly, I don’t know that he’d have the time at this point, but I’m sure he appreciates the interest.

>>>However, your book or the rarities (whatever) disc, any ideas on the design(s) as yet? Know its too early, but wouldn't it look good if the design was based on the CR designs? In gold? silver(mithril)? And you don't have to answer this if you don't know the answers right now. I know how it feels to tell people that things haven't been decided as yet>>>

Yeah, there’s no idea on this yet! I’ll let you know once we’re getting closer.

>>>by the way how does the edit sound and have you got a hint at how long it is going to be or will that come in the press release?>>>

It sounds spectacular… and I haven’t even heard the DVD version yet. It’ll be longer than FOTR: CR, that’s all I can say right now. The press release will hint at a playing time, but as I noted in an earlier post, it’ll be deceptive.

>>>Nice to hear about that dwarven piece from the ROTK. If you said beer then it must be the music played during the drinking contest. >>>

I’d say that’s a pretty solid guess!

>>>And if your book will contain stuff from ROTK, then is it possible that you'll release it after ROTK:CR?>>>

The last I’ve heard, the publishers would like to have the book out around the same time as ROTK: CR, if not slightly earlier. That doesn’t mean that’s exactly when it will happen, but seems to be the prevailing thought at the moment.

>>>P.S.:Was Howard Shore inspired after Dvorak's first 5-6 seconds of the 9th symphony "New World",Largo movement,for a certain piece of shire music?Those 5-6 seconds of Dvorak sound a bit like the music played when the fellowship reunites in frodo's bedroom:ROTK,second dvd,1:34:36-1:34:43.Thanks again.>>>

The only specific nod in the score is Shore’s Wagner reference in the ROTK credits. Anything past that is simply a matter of coincidence.

>>>So, has it been decided yet how to deal with those "entirely different compositions"? You don't have to tell us what they are planning to do, just say YES or NO>>>

It has been decided that you’ll hear them eventually. So, “YES.”

>>>And since you brushed on the topic "Star Wars", let me ask you a simple question:
which trilogy do you think is more complex, Lord of the Rings or Star Wars? I think this is a battle that will go on as long as good vs. evil exists.>>>

You know, I don’t know that that is a judgment I can make – not for any sort of bureaucratic reasons, but for artistic ones. Complexity is a pretty subjective thing. Is Pollock more complex or is Picasso? It’s hard to say because they were after such different aesthetics. I can happily say that I find both trilogies to be quite complex in their own ways. Mr. Shore is a fan of Williams’ Star Wars writing, and Mr. Williams applauded enthusiastically when Shore won his first Oscar. Seems like a nice amicable situation to me!

>>>And since you're already reading this post, if you had to pick one score of each trilogy as your favourite, which ones would you chose?>>>

In Star Wars, I’d have to say Empire is still my favorite, but that was the first score I ever heard on record, so maybe I’m biased. In LOTR – that’s really hard to say. I tend to feel that whatever I’m currently listening to is the best, which is a good sign! When I was working on FOTR I always felt, “Boy you know, this is really the strongest one, isn’t it?” When I started working on TTT I started to think, “Wow so much more breadth and verticality. This has got to be the finest of the lot!” Guess what I’ll think when I start ROTK…

>>>I reserve judgment on the Lord of the Rings scores until I hear all of the Complete Recordings. I know that sounds like a cop-out, but ever since I got the CR of Fellowship, my estimation of that score as a purely musical work has increased immeasurably - and watching the film was a completely different experience after hearing the score in complete form.>>>

You’re about to experience that again very soon! I promise you.

>>>Anyway, to quote Doug Adams:

Don't panic!

That's easy to say when you've got access to the whole thing in every stage of its production>>>

Well, to be fair, I think he’s quoting the other Doug Adams! You know, the real one.

>>>By the way, Doug is constantly talking about ROTK's new hobbit material, has anyone noticed this new material?
I'm afraid I'm a little thick here. I've never looked at Bilbo's Song as a pure hobbit piece ... ?>>>

There are several new developments of the Shire material in this score, and I’m not simply referring to some of the recaps at the end. New Shire material is doled out in interesting ways, as you’ll see in TTT. These films are essentially told from a hobbit-centric point of view, and so the Shire material is constantly treated to new guises, accumulating like the hobbits’ experiences. It’s not so much that there are brand new themes, it’s that the existing material moves into new molds.

As for the Bilbo piece… it’s mature hobbit music. It still features the boys. It still begins with the 1-2-3 stepwise motion. But there’s a new weighty quality to its development.

>>>And I thought the press release would include pics...>>>

The FOTR press release did not include pics, so I suspect this one will not either. I guess it could, but it would be news to me.

>>>Okay, I'm tired of "deep breaths before plunges"...there's just been too much of silence. The weeks are going by and they seem like years and I feel like I'm aging without anything to sustain me. I need something, maybe news about The Hobbit, or about 10th anniversary LOTR release with deleted scenes "back where they belong" or maybe news about TTT:CR??>>>

Oh dear! Well, as they say, man does not live by bread alone! Even I need to climb out of Middle-earth now and then and take a walk, go out for a movie, hang out with friends and loved ones, etc. Remember, Tolkien was very big on the ideas and themes in LOTR being applied in real life as well!

>>>Also, in the FOTR annotated score, could someone please explain the Unused Concept on page 12? Doug says that Mr.Shore had written and recorded music for the "theatrical edit of the gift giving scene." Huh?? Doug?>>>

Well, in the film’s Theatrical Cut the gift giving scene was cut down to the point that it was nothing more than the Fellowship departing in boats. But the fact remains that this was the gift giving scene, despite the fact that we’ll have to assume the actual gift giving happened off screen. (Remember, Frodo somehow has that phial in ROTK.) Referring to the "theatrical edit of the gift giving scene” is a way to say this a bit more concisely.

>>>At the begining of the TTT:EE scoring documentary, you see (and hear) a clip from the FOTR scoring sessions showing the scene where Merry and Pippin create a diversion at Parth Galen so Frodo can escape.

In the film, we get just a hint of the Reclamation of Nature theme in that scene, but here it gets a lengthier statement, with a brass ending that I almost thought must have come from the Rohirrim at Pelennor...

Is there a story here? (perhaps they wanted to save the development of the theme for later?)

And is this piece a possible candidate for release as a rarity?>>>

Both the music and the story are indeed candidates! (Yes, there was some discussion on this recently!)

-Doug

Quote:

Howard Shore’s complete Grammy-winning score for The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers, from the epic film trilogy The Lord of the Rings, will be available in a deluxe four-disc edition from Reprise/WMG Soundtracks on November 7, 2006.

This historic release contains over 180 minutes of music on three CDs, comprising the full score of the 2002 film, composed by Howard Shore. The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers, The Complete Recordings marks the second edition of the three complete recording releases of the film trilogy whose score has been honored with three Academy Awards, four Grammy Awards and two Golden Globe Awards, and which has sold over 6 million copies worldwide. This deluxe set also includes exclusive new artwork, packaging, extensive liner notes written by Doug Adams, and “Gollum’s Song” performed by Emiliana Torrini.

Composed for symphony orchestra and choir, The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers, The Complete Recordings was performed by London Philharmonic Orchestra, The London Voices, The London Oratory School Schola featuring vocal performances by Emiliana Torrini, Isabel Bayrakdarian, Sheila Chandra, Elizabeth Fraser, Ben Del Maestro and cast member Miranda Otto.

The fourth disc is a DVD-Audio presenting the entire The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers, The Complete Recordings in 5.1 Surround Sound.

The boxed set for the complete recordings of the first film, The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring – The Complete Recordings, was released on December 13, 2005 . It spent months in Amazon.com’s top 100 Sales Ranking, and garnered some of the best reviews of the year. “For fans of any of The Lord of the Rings films, The Fellowship of the Ring/Complete Recordings is an essential experience,” Heather Phares, All Music Guide. “The Complete Recordings is last year’s most important archival soundtrack release, expanding and preserving one of the finest and most significant recent scores in all of film music. Shore’s Lord Of The Rings trilogy is an operatic symphony that is among the finest musical accomplishments of the last half-century. The plethora of unreleased material on this beautifully packaged edition is mouth-watering at the least, and the sonic dynamic achieved on the surround sound DVD of the entire 180-minute score is simply astonishing. ” Randall Larson, Music From the Movies

Composer of over sixty-five film scores, Howard Shore brought a lifetime of experience to creating the epochal soundtrack for The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers. Shore used Tolkien's texts and drew from multiple periods throughout music history to evoke the book’s enchanted worlds. He developed over 80 leitmotifs to describe the cultures of Middle-earth . Collaborating with authors/lyrists Fran Walsh and Philippa Boyens, he composed choral music utilizing the Tolkien-created languages for the Elves (Quenya and Sindarin), the Dwarves (Khuzdûl), Men (Adûnaic) and the evil cultures of Mordor (Black Speech). For Rohan, all the choral text was set in Old English.

In 2003, working with conductor John Mauceri, Shore created The Lord of the Rings Symphony, a two-hour 6 movement concert piece drawing from the nearly 12 hours of music he composed for Peter Jackson’s landmark film trilogy. This piece features a full symphony orchestra, adult and children's choirs, as well as solo instrumentalists and vocalists, totaling more than 200 musicians on stage. Since its debut in November 2003 in Wellington, New Zealand, The Lord of the Rings Symphony has been performed in sold-out concerts on four continents and in some of the world’s most legendary venues, including London’s Royal Albert Hall, Moscow’s Kremlin Palace Theater and Sydney’s Opera House . Some of the world’s leading international orchestras – including the Cleveland Orchestra, the Philadelphia Orchestra, the Pittsburgh Symphony and London Philharmonic – have performed The Lord of the Rings Symphony in addition to regional orchestras across the United States, and this past July, the symphony celebrated its 100th performance by the San Francisco Symphony.

The UK’s Classic FM voted The Lord of the Rings soundtracks the Best Film Score of All Time for five consecutive years. Shore’s other impressive film credits include Martin Scorsese’s The Aviator (Golden Globe Award), David Fincher’s Se7en and Panic Room, Jonathan Demme’s The Silence of the Lambs and Philadelphia, and 11 films with David Cronenberg including A History of Violence and Spider . Shore is currently writing an opera based on his film collaboration with Cronenberg, The Fly, commissioned for the Los Angeles Opera, and he is also completing work on his fifth collaboration with Martin Scorsese, The Departed, starring Leonardo DiCaprio, Matt Damon, Jack Nicholson, Martin Sheen and Mark Wahlberg.

Says Shore of his time on The Lord of the Rings, “Everybody felt that we were working on something important. It was a film that welcomed the intensity of our efforts. As much as we put into it, it showed us more. It was endlessly revealing working on The Lord of the Rings.”

Doug Adams wrote:

Hi everybody,

Like the new digs! Thanks to Peter for letting me know the thread was relocated. I will try to address a couple of questions best I can.

First, sorry about the November 7 switcheroo… I heard about the change about 2 days before the press release went out, but felt it was better to let the PR do the talking at that point. I don’t know what prompted the move, but don’t worry, it’s not due to any sort of problem. We’re cleaning up Annotated Score materials now and the DVD menus are being finalized, so everything is right on schedule.

On the issue of deceptive running times, let me clarify a little. Yes, TTT runs longer than 180 minutes. FOTR did also, but TTT is a bit longer than FOTR. However, remember that FOTR’s running time includes over five minutes of Plan 9 music, two Enya pieces, and about 30 seconds of Fran Walsh’s Drinking Song… er, make that the song Fran Walsh wrote for the hobbits to sing while drinking!

Anyway, TTT only includes one melody by Plan 9 (Éowyn’s piece), and that’s entirely performed over Shore’s score. So even when you do get an official running time for the Two Towers set, remember that this time, the ENTIRE playing time is dedicated to Shore’s music… so you’re actually getting significantly more score.

Does that make a little more sense?

>>>One of those moments happened few days ago while I was listening to the TTT OST. Suddenly I became aware that the track 9, White Rider, contains the Orc/Isengard 5/4 rhythm underneath the Exorcism of Théoden bit of the track (0;13-0;38). I was stunned once again. This was a detail that had gone unnoticed by me for ages and now it suddenly became clear. And the thematic reference makes perfect sense as Gandalf is battling Saruman for Théoden's soul and Shore pits Isengard material against White Rider music. This depth really makes these scores something extraordinary.>>>

The Five Beat Pattern is really quite viral in this score… or perhaps parasitic. It’s all over the place, but it’s generally trying to squirm its way inside other material and take it over. The Théoden bit above is a great example. You’ll soon be able to hear a version or two you’ve never heard before as well.

>>>Personally, I'm really looking forward to the unreleased Nazgul music in the Dead Marshes. It scared the hell out of me in teh theatre.>>>

Much of what you heard in the theater in this scene was created through mixing… like the big choral crescendo. You’ll hear quite a bit more on disc – it really fleshes out the first appearance of a Nazgûl in TTT, both tying him firmly to the FOTR Black Riders, and making him seem much more vicious and dangerous.

>>>I am looking forward a number of cues like the Boromir flashback scene and the small rendition of Nature's theme while Merry and Pippin lie tied up at the edge of Fangorn and Merry tells the little story about the trees of Buckland and that Nazgûl over Dead Marshes cue.>>>

Just wait until you hear the unused end of the Fangorn piece!

>>>DOUG, did you say that there would be more Gandalf the White material presented on the CR than what's in the film (and OST)?>>>

I did, indeed.

I’m not kidding, there are a huge number of unused bits in this score. If the EE was one large step beyond the Theatrical version of this score, then the CR is the same sized step beyond the EE.

>>>I hope there is a track from the scene where Gandalf talks to Aragorn about Sauron fearing him.>>>

It’s in there, of course. Heck, that one could never be left off anyway… it includes a tiny premonition of one of the most important themes in The Lord of the Rings!

-Doug

Doug Adams wrote:

Hi everyone,

Thought I'd try some answers this morning.

>>>I thought the theme referred in that little scene in TTT is the Completion of
the Quest/Destruction of the Ring (as I call it) theme which is heard in the End
of All Things (3;53-> ).>>>

>>>I think I know what theme it is. I believe it is a hint of the majestic,
ending variation of the Sauron theme, which plays over the falling Barad-Dur and
Black Gates, in ROTK.>>>

>>>Ya, I think were talking about the same theme here. Am I the only one who
thinks that it has a little of the Sauron theme in it? I sense the same up and
down motion in the beginning of each theme. It also makes sense to me, being a
"majestic, ending variation" as it plays over the "ending" of Sauron's reign.>>>

You're definitely in the right headspace here. The Evil of the Ring is bound up in this "new" theme, but there are other connections. It's an answering theme, one which resolves several of the music conflicts within Middle-earth. It's a complicated little line... and that complication is compounded in Two Towers where you're not really sure what it's telling you. Happy Sauron music? Huh?

What a brilliant little moment!

>>>I think we will be guessing the theme up untill we have the RotK liner notes

We all have a prospective candidate.>>>

It'll get a little attention in TTT's notes, but yes, ROTK will explain much more.

>>>Thank you for the update Mr. Adams.Regarding the two versions of Theoden
music never heard before,could one of them be the music played during the
Appendices menu from disc 4 of TTT:EE?I remember that it sounded
rohanish,beautiful and never heard before.Or is it smth else?>>>

Are you referring to the Main Menu music? If so, that’s from the EE scene during the exodus from Edoras. Théoden is talking about Éowyn, and how he should have been a father to her. It’s just before she brings out the awful looking stew. That’s why there are a few hints of Éowyn’s primary theme in there.

>>>Hello, I'm new here and it took me hours to read everything related to the
LOTR scores. I really enjoy the score, but when I read all this, I understand I
know nothing yet. And I really want to do something about that.

It's just amazing how much interesting things Doug Adams is posting here. Even
in Belgium (where I'm living) people interested in soundtracks know your name!
(Now you know I'm from Belgium, you might want to forgive my poor English

I'm looking forward to CR from TT but now my priority is finding a cue by cue
analysis from CR FOTR so I can really discuss things with all of you (Afterwards
I can study TT, which I already have found on this site - great cue by cue
analysis by the way- I found one from CR FOTR made on this site but it's not complete.

Is there anyone that can help me?

Looking forward to new information

I think I'm gonna like it here ;>>>

Thanks, glad you're here, Matthijs.

>>>Much of what you heard in the theater in this scene was created through
mixing... like the big choral crescendo. You'll hear quite a bit more on disc -
it really fleshes out the first appearance of a Nazgûl in TTT, both tying him
firmly to the FOTR Black Riders, and making him seem much more vicious and
dangerous.

Uuh, are you saying that "cue" was tracked in? Or that there were just some
instrument sections dropped in the mixing?>>>

It's a little of everything to be honest. Sections of Shore's original composition are in there, but remixed. Some of the overlays, however, didn't originate with this composition. You'll see / hear. The full piece offers a much more extensive view of the Ringwraith and Mordor musics.

>>>This CR better be good, you've just raised my expectations a hell of alot!>>>

Well, all I can offer is my opinion... to my ears, yes it's that good.

>>>By the way, Plan 9 did the Eowyn song? I always thought it was, well,
improvised on set or something.>>>

Yes, Plan 9 gets the credit for that one. In the process of the assembly I was able to hear Miranda Otto's first take on this piece... the performance that was actually captured on-set. (Those of you who have paid attention all the film's Making Of... docs will remember that most of the film was looped because much of it was filmed near an airport, so they were constantly besieged by low-flying planes.) Her original take on the material was quite different, and I think it's a testament to her performing abilities that the final product sounds so organic and improvised.

>>>I'm wondering, does Plan 9 have a website? If they do I can't seem to find
it! I really enjoy the diagetic pieces they've created for the films. It would
be nice to see what other collaborations they've been involved in and whether
they've released other music.>>>

I do not believe that Plan 9 has their own website. Too bad, really, because I'd love to link to it through the notes.

>>>It's just amazing how much interesting things Doug Adams is posting here.
Even in Belgium (where I'm living) people interested in soundtracks know your
name!

Watch out, Howard Shore, soon the name of Doug Adams shall become better known
amongst thy followers than thy own!>>>

Ha! Well, let's just bear in the mind that Howard Shore created this beautiful work of music not me! I know I do a lot of the public stuff, but I wish that many of the people working on these releases were equally as visible. You can't imagine the amount of time effort and dedication they've applied towards this production. Each and every one of them deserves more kudos than we can ever offer.

>>>I watched a good part of TTT last night, and during the introduction of
Treebeard, did anyone else notice the unused music from Weathertop? This might
be an old hat for some of you, but I've never realised it until yesterday.>>>

You know, you've got a knack for noticing where great music has been cut out of the film--despite the fact that you haven't heard it before. Most impressive! The complete Entering Fangorn sequence features some of my favorite unused music in the entire film. There's an idea in the first half of the composition--which you have already heard--that returns two more times in the music, and builds up the wonderment of Treebeard. That's just a great piece... anxiety, fury, amazement, bemusement... it highlights Shore's gift for navigating an enormous trough of emotional material in a compact timeframe.

>>>Guys, could anybody please unveil what's the theme that we hear in the middle
of the ROTK trailer, when Aragorn cry "I see in your eyes the same fear..."?
This is a kind of version of Minas-Tirith theme, another abandoned concept?
Unfortunately I didn't hear this piece in the film, any hope for CR?>>>

The ROTK trailer is a unique beast. Shore wrote the music for the trailer (hence the use of the Heroics of Aragorn theme), but the final product was sort of remixed and punched up by an outside company.

>>>Beren, the theme that occurs as Aragorn makes his way to Helm's Deep is the
"Heroics of Aragorn" theme. The most similar rendition of that theme in FoTR is
when Aragorn begans to fight the Uruk-hai at Amon Hen. Listen to both and you'll
hear the similarity. Simply awesome...>>>

That theme makes a number of appearances in both TTT and ROTK, but often masked... or attached to other themes. It's another incredibly significant little bit of music!

>>>Actually, I was thinking the same thing...and I realized that it happened
sometime around when the Annotated Score showed up on the soundtrack site. So I
guess we can look for that happening as an indication that things are hotting
up.>>>

If I remember, the FOTR Annotated Score went live a day or two after the CDs hit the shelves. I don't know what Reprise / Warners has planned this time out, but I'm sure the web material will coincide closely with the CD release. I doubt the new web material will be up before the set is released, but I suppose it's possible.

>>>Now about the running time again; in the special LOTR issue of Music From The
Movies, there are specific numbers mentioned:>>>

I don’t remember exactly where MFTM came up with these numbers (I don't have the issue with me at the moment), but despite their Herculean efforts with this piece, I think they’ve sort of misrepresented what these numbers actually mean.

Now, I’m obviously not criticizing MFTM, because they did a great job. But I think if you’re going to take a holistic approach to the LOTR music, you need to do it terms of musical composition, not minutes and seconds. The time factor is too murky, and I don’t think any one’s ever going to come to a consensus on how to apply it. If Shore rewrote 30 bars in the middle of a 500 measure piece, how do you tabulate the minutes of music written? What about an EE piece that was book ended on either side by 10 measures which were also in the Theatrical cut? They were recorded months apart, and they lead into different material, but how exactly do those minutes rack up? I could see them counting unused or alternate compositions, but even that gets muddy. You all know from the Two Towers DVD that there’s an alternate version of the track that was called “Samwise the Brave” on the OST. But only the first few minutes of a very long composition are different, so what’s the minute total on that?

See what I mean? The numbers game doesn’t really present a very clear picture. What you’re getting in the boxed sets is a complete set of the final version of all the compositions Shore wrote for The Lord of the Rings. You will eventually get non-final versions, but that’s later. Right now, it’s story time! Peeking behind the scenes comes later.

>>>FYI...I love love love the Fan Credit pieces that featured at the end in all three of the movies. I hope that the pieces will surface in the future on CD...the rarities disk perhaps. I wonder if will be with Doug's book. Anyway, my opinion...the pieces should have been included on the CR disks...but I think their length would have prohibited their inclusion.>>>

The Fan Scroll music hasn’t been presented as part of the end credits because it’s already in the movie. Those suites were just edited together from music around the film, and since that music is already on the CRs’ in its proper narrative placement it seemed aesthetically “off” to say, "Ok here it is again… uh, except now it's shorter and non-narrative." (Ok, ok, talk about misrepresenting something… now I’m doing it! Yes, the FOTR scroll contains the NZSO’s take on the Breaking of the Fellowship music… so it’s *technically* incorrect to imply you’re hearing it “again.” However, the narrative disconnect theory still applied here pretty strongly as it made little musical sense to hear the same lengthy chunk of music two times within 10 minutes—give or take—of play time.)

>>>I agree. My favorite one is the Fellowship(title 1, chapter 21 1:55:40 on my dvd player). It's mainly just the strings performing the Fellowship theme and there's something plaintive and pure about it that makes it the most beautiful version of that theme to me. I was a little sad when I found out that it wasn't on the CR set. But it is nice to have it on the EE dvd.>>>

Yes, this is the New Zealand Symphony’s take on the music. While you do have London Philharmonic’s reading, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the NZSO’s turn up… someday.

>>>If i'm not wrong HS recorded 12hrs of music for LOTR.That would mean that TTT and ROTK CR should be at least 4h30 minutes in lenght.Maybe we'll not get to hear all the recorded music after all.However the're might be a rarities disc,but it would be A disc;with a maximum of 80 minutes of music.But it will still remain some 7h40 minutes for TTT and ROTK.So that's 444 minutes for each=>unfitted on 3 discs.>>>

TTT—in its entirety—fits on three discs. No worries.

>>>Isn't a rarity per definiton a piece that's in NO version of the film?>>>

Yes and no. There will be music on TTT:CR that is in no version of the film… heck there’s music on the OST that’s in no version of the film. (Treebeard’s bassoon, for one.) I guess the definition of “rarity” in this instance would be concepts that were recorded, but passed over in favor of revised musical concepts (“musical,” because the concept of silence doesn’t apply).

>>>I think that RotK has more "(very) high strings" music in the score than in TT and FotR. There's an ascending motive that's all high strings. Is this true, DOUG?>>>

Heh, I’ve never had to quantify high string writing before…but sure, I guess so, why not! ROTK, in general, features the most extroverted writing of LOTR.

>>>I've thought about something for the past few months...I think there's a connection between 3 themes, and "death" or "fading away" is the connection. The themes are: Minas Tirith(the first 4 notes), Into the West(the first 4 notes), and 'Theoden's Old Age' motive(in TTT) (all 4 notes). What do ya think? DOUG???>>>

Although I’m all for these type of connections, it may be a stretch to apply one in this case. Minas Tirith begins on the fifth degree of a Lydian mode and isn’t totally stepwise. Into the West begins on the fourth degree on an Ionian mode and *is* stepwise. And the Théoden material I *think* you’re referring to is actually a theme that’s between Éowyn and Théoden… which is why it’s nearly identical to her primary theme. This theme climaxes on the fields on the Pelennor when Éowyn slays the Witch-king, so it’s really much more her theme… a theme of self actualization rather than decline.

>>>One more thing...I just realized (and this might be an "old hat" for some of you) that some of the same text/music is used for 2 choral parts in TT: Right before Gandalf falls in Moria and as he reveals himself as Gandalf the White to possessed Theoden. I'm not sure what the text is, but it sounds something like: ae tah nah. Pretty cool connection, whatever it means. DOUG?>>>

>>>Mettana : To the end (Quenya)>>>

Magpie’s got it. It’s from Philippa Boyens’ text “The Fight.”

>>>Actually, she said once the CRs are out, she most likely will take the site off the web.>>>

I know Magpie has already addressed this, but I would like to add that it would be absolutely heartbreaking if her site were to go off-line. I hope it’s around forever.

>>>I was wondering, (perhaps it's already discussed) at the beginning of FOTR CR (after 30 seconds) brass and strings build op to one of the Ring themes. This building up is repeated somethimes further on. I was wondering if this building up has a connection to some of the themes or is it just a building up?>>>

It’s really just a little build up into the History of the Ring theme, no greater dramatic significance than that. A transitional passage. But you’re absolutely right that it’s the same bar and half or so in each instance.

>>>And there is something else i'm woundering about. (you can say when I'm repeating things already discussed, I know this might be familiar to you , sorry for that)The music, played when Isildur is attacked and he loses the ring. Is that related to something else?>>>

This will be a major point of discussion in ROTK. You’ll see more then!

>>>In actual fact, before the ROTK cinema release had come out (about 6 months prior), I once heard a rumor that they actually shot nine different possible endings....I don't know if this is true or not, but one never knows........>>>

I think there was a short scene shot of Éowyn and Faramir’s wedding… and possibly even some departures with the Fellowship members each going their own way after the coronation. None of these were ever scored, however.

>>>how is the track list coming along, is it finalized yet and if so, will it appear on the net soon?>>>

Yep, the track list is finalized and has been since late July. I’m guessing that the list will hit the web same as it did with FOTR… some online dealer will get info from the label and post it on their site. Who had it up first last time, Barnes & Noble? I can’t remember. I suppose it’s always possible that the official Howard Shore site will list the tracks first, but I don’t have any info regarding that, sorry.

>>>And what about some samples?Just a taste of its beauty.>>>

Again, I’m not in that loop, so I don’t know. I think it would be rather ill-advised of me to start posting clips on my own, so I think I’ll steer away from that!

>>>Am I right if I say that the long string lines played when Bilbo is talking to Gandalf in the kitchen (about getting old etc...) can be linked to the long string lines played when Gandalf is talking to Frodo in Moria about Gollem (just before the incredibly beautiful line : all you have to decide ... is said)? And are there other moments when these long strings make their appearance?>>>

These chords are based on the opening harmonies of the Shire theme which, in a certain even-paced rhythm, eventually become the Hymn Setting of the Shire theme. It hasn’t fully formed yet in this scene, but it’ll be back shortly when Frodo and Bilbo talk at the birthday party. The Hymn Setting is the least used setting of the Shire theme, but it gets around a bit.

>>>I think I discovered something (or perhaps it's been discovered and I just didn't know it), the underscore when Bilbo has given his speech and is talking to himself, isnt't that the same rythm as the Ringwraith Theme --> referring to the consequences of putting the ring on?>>>

I think it could be read as either a light version of Wraith material, or as a dark version of the Hobbit End Cap. I would tend to go with the latter—especially considering that Bilbo knows little of the Wraiths at this point, and because the glassy quintuplet figures above are based on the Hobbit Outline figure. But it’s certainly open to a bit of interpretation, I think.

>>>P.P.S.:One short question:what prophecy is actually reffering to the music piece with the same title from the FOTR:OST?>>>

It may interest you to know that the original title of this text was “The Battle of Dagorlad.” Make of that what you will.

>>>Focusing on the TT:CR so much I almost forgot about the rarities disc w/book that is supposed to come out some time next year. A brush up on the preliminary details or an overview would be nice. Doug?>>>

It’s still a bit early to discuss either of those right now, as discussions and decisions are still ongoing. But don’t fear, I’ll keep you posted.

However, I can tell you that the TTT Annotated Score is nearly done. Draft 2.5 is complete and awaiting revisions. The layout isn’t complete at all, but in its rough form, we’re already pushing 50 pages. So I’d say you can expect to encounter a fair number of details in there somewhere!

-Doug