board77

Sassy ran off to Vegas with Louie, too.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.




In other news (not!), I agree with everything Tinwe just said.

Ahem.

What loooong memories you two have.



I can see that my sordid past is catching up with me.

Just for the record, Louie (Louisa) and I had fun cavorting and generally carrying on. Until the money dispute, that is.



I don't care if he was a she.
Cute and Cuddly is cute and cuddly regardless of gender.

I try everything at least once.
You never know. Ya might like it.


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So, are we gonna have a poll on this multiple ID thing?

<sigh>

You guys need a hobby! I can't believe how much has been posted while I was gone for 24 hours (being a good girl and doing homework on disaster contingency planning for banks, bleh!).

NO POLLS! I don't like polls! I was hoping for some sort of discussion, concensus, win/win type of thread, rather than a simple poll. Thank you all for participating. Clearly this is a devisive issue. Those who like to keep their reality and their fiction separate seem to be anti-multiple-ID. I can't fault their logic. Why on earth would you want a second ID wandering through a philosophy or business-related thread? And those who are very good at their fiction, and feel comfortable in the RP-only threads, can post with a single ID or multiple IDs, as they wish. The format of the RP thread makes it obvious who they are at the moment. It's those crazy people like me who were introduced to light RP that wanders through a thread like a giggle, that would miss alternate IDs, and would see no reason why Louie the Raccoon should be locked up in a single forum, unable to sift through others' trash and give tackle cuddles to unsuspecting people.

TORN is an alternate name??? Oh wait, yeah, I remember now! I remember puzzling over that quite a bit because he was flirting with me in a rather bizarre way. So I asked Wilko a few weeks later, at the London Minimoot. He kept a straight face and said he had no idea. Of course, I had no idea Wilko was a mod and probably knew exactly who TORN was, but had no intention of revealing either fact. And no one else in the room did either. That incident, and the incident with the person-who-shall-remain-unnamed who switched his name because he felt he needed a fresh start, not realizing that you can change your mask but your body language gives you away, are the only two mildly deceptive incidents I can think of.

Jn wrote:

Until now, B77 has been almost like having a community in real life. I feel like I really know the people here. When we're open to the public, the pics will come down, the masks will go up, and the people who delight in masks because authenticity is not part of their package, they are the ones who will proliferate. By definition, those who have ten ID's will be more 'present' than those who have only one, and they will be ten ID's who can escape forthright dialogue simply by turning into someone else.

I hope you are speaking hypothetically here, and not about someone you know who has 10 IDs, like for example, me. I'm certainly not "more present" at TORC because of the multiple IDs I used at the MOME thread. I've never "escaped forthright dialogue" by "turning into someone else". I'm not sure I could call light RP "forthright", anyway. I really hope you were speaking of someone else you know, and not intending to lump me in with such disparagements.

And I have a photo of myself on TORC, my real face, not a chocolate-dipped one, because I finally feel safe enough to do so, even though it is a public message board. Ironically, it was on TORC, a message board where I could slowly unfold my identity, bit by bit, where I have finally been able to show the real me, unlike the way I am in RL where I work. Sadly, I'm beginning to feel far less comfortable here than there. My first inclination is to flee. But I have admin duties to keep.

I hope whatever unpleasantries you are going through in RL right now is resolved soon, Jn. You sound very bitter. Or maybe I just don't know you.

Quote:

Sadly, I'm beginning to feel far less comfortable here than there. My first inclination is to flee.

This is off-topic, but why? Is this discussion making you feel this way? I just don't get people sometimes...



Eh, maybe I'm out of line to ask... Ignore me if you like.

Sometimes I don't get people either. Not enough smileys, I guess. x;)

I'm not trying to sound like a jerk or anything. But I do wonder where statements like that come from. Anyway, this is all a digression, so I'm just going to say: Hi.

After reading Nin's post it dawned on me....

I apologize Laureanna for asking you my question in this thread and not taking it to a PM if it's been obnoxious.

I agree with what Tinwe said too.

Okay for multiple IDs and some fun with them, as long as it is obvious that they are clones (with asterixes)... and as long as they can't vote in polls.

And I would say, if we find out someone has created a secondary ID without respecting the rules we fix for them, this ID can be suspended without any consequences for the primary ID.

Just my two cents.

And I'll PM you with a question, Laureanna.

laureanna, one of the problems we've got here is to lay down general rules for anybody while we know that special people don't need them. At the moment, we're all special, and need no rules except common sense and consensus. When we open the doors, we'll have to face people turning their"specialness" against community - the public opinion turning against multiple IDs hasn't got anything to do with you.

I know people who manage to steer their cars at very high speeds safely and without endangering anybody, yet there are speed limits because most people can't.

Holbytla wrote:

First I want to address something Din said.

Quote:

Can I just point out that admins, mayors etc etc etc etc will change, so no distinction need be made for anybody knowing who is who. The idea of secret id's turns me cold.

The second this board opens, anyone will be able to register as any name they choose. Your next door neighbor could register as Aragorn13986234 and you would never know it. To put a finer point on this, a fellow named Ted could register here and you would be none the wiser. Once we open, the only people who will be able to conceal themselves are the new posters. There is no way to mandate that a person coming over from another messageboard will use their same username. If the idea of secret ID's turns you cold, be prepared. It is quite likely we will have a number of them when we open. The only ones that won't be able to have them are the people that are currently here.

I think you missed my point Holby.

I know that when B77 opens we will be deluged by those who's lives have been irredeemably tortured by not being allowed to post here or view here, and I am sure we will have an interesting few months dealing with some of the nastier elements of TORC who will join and get their revenge. It is one of the main reasons that I am so against opening up this place, and I am hoping that it will not be so bad and that B77 will survive it.

My point was the potential for abuse. We all know petty vindictive arguments can start over little things, and we know that message boards attract small petty vindictive people as much as the happy folk we have the good fortune to have on B77 so far.

However, and it is a big however, multiple id's can be used really well and effectively to get at people. It is too tempting. Random sniping comments in an odd id that people may or may not know. It may seem like a one off comment, but it can start a shit war the like of which can effect the whole board. If you don't know who the id is, how in the nine hells are you suppose to react to them? How do you police it?

What do we do if somebody is seen to be harassing somebody in an alternative id? Do we ban the alternative, the main id, how do we tell? I am not sure if folks are aware but to set up an alternative id you need a second e-mail address (or third or tenth etc). We have no easy way to govern abuse in an alternative id, as we have no real way to know if the alternative id is in fact alternative at all.

And you are right Holby, we don't know who everybody is. You don't know for example if I am the same Dindraug from TORC, a different person, an old TORC poster using the Dindraug id etc. We don't know at all.

Consider the many posters here who have put up pics of themselves for the first time. We do not know if they are them, or other posters from TORC/TORN/Lush with issues. We have no way of knowing, and because of that it is a none issue. If some of TORC trouble causers are here signed up as other people, what could we do? I am actually very surprised that somebody like The Angel has not signed up as a long lost poster who may have drifted off. Simply take the name and apply, it would be easy. If your clever enough, who would know (ok so that does rule out certain people but you know what I mean).


From my own point of view the whole issue is about honesty. If you want to say something, just say it. You don’t need to hide behind an alternative id.

They serve no purpose except clog the server with alternative info, give more to admin’s to do to look after them (ok so it is unlikely that we will have many more forums but as somebody who set up several, it is annoying organising permissions for them all).

Oh, and they are a fab vehicle for spam. That would seem to be the best, and most common, use of alternative id’s (outside RP).

Sorry to Rant, and not getting at anybody in particular. I just find alternative id’s outside RP dull. If it does go ahead, please do not be offended if I, or any others, refuse to respond to alternative id posts or if a response is made if it is addressed to your normal id.


But you are right Laureanna, this place is not as welcoming as once was

Thanks Din and I know just how you feel. But please try not to look at it so negatively. I know it's hard, very hard sometimes, with all this talk of rules and regulations dragging on the morale for quite some time now.
We can't really go back - only forward and that is towards openening this board.

Yet I'd like to say something else to those people that are for multiple ID's outside of the RP forum:

Is it not possible to wait with this decision and leave it for a later time?
The rule to NOT have multiple IDs outside of RP was established by the first generation of members here. I'm not saying it cannot be overturned - it can, only perhaps please not now.

We're going to face 'interesting times' when we open the door - I'm sure you'll agree to that. It's going to cause quite some adjustement, for the new people as well as the old. There will hopefully be many happy reunions but there will also be the opposite reaction. Sure we cannot control nor police who signs up under which username. For that a basic trust needs to be in place otherwise we'll all get totally paranoyd. But at least by keeping to the established rule we don't create even more potential 'problem' areas.

Once we're open for a while and things have settled, why not revisit that question and then maybe change the constitution? What's the harm in holding back and see how we're doing with all the 'open up waves' before getting into something as controversial and potentially open for abuse as this? I just really think we could spare ourselves a whole lot of trouble by sticking to the established rule for the time being.

Timeframe for this? I simply don't know. From the time the board opens I'd say give it a month - then gauge again.

Would it be so terrible having to hold off your creative urges until then? Multiple IDs even if identified with an * do confuse people. Do we really need that when we open the doors and new people are getting a feel for this place and we get a feel for them?

Needless to say, I'm not going to do an advisory poll on this. No one seems to really need/want one desperately And lastly please consider this:

Quoting from Jny's post over at the pannel thread with which I fully agreeMember rights

Quote:

Well, the opinions being expressed in that thread are coming from 11 regular members and 9 committee members (plus one off-topic discussion in which 3 additional posters participated) ... out of ~130 members, of whom ~40 are the original members who decided not to allow multiple IDs originally.

There are more new members than original members so the average sentiment may have changed, but I would not call that thread a widespread clamor for multiple IDs.

*This* thread was 'only' started on the 15th. Perhaps more time is needed for people to voice their opinion or we're dealing with a case of member apathy here.

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Resident witchâ„¢

Alandriel, you are the voice of reason... I think it might be reasonnable to delay this question and to keep the actual rule until we see how the board digests the opening.

And Din.... can I do anything to make this board more welcoming for you?

And TED: I needed an info from Laureanna - nothing to do with the thread here.

Nin wrote:

And Din.... can I do anything to make this board more welcoming for you?

I am disallusioned Nin, and not by you .

It's just the same old same old, and same discussions and I have lost faith. Tired I guess.

I think I would prefer o see more 'what do we get rid of before we open the doors' threads than rehashing the discussions we had months ago for the new generation. It feels like I am stuck in Star Trek: Voyager and some days I just get so tired of dealing with Neelix. (sorry for the geek references).

What was wrong with Neelix?

What would you get rid of, Din?

Dindraug wrote:

Random sniping comments in an odd id that people may or may not know. It may seem like a one off comment, but it can start a shit war the like of which can effect the whole board. If you don't know who the id is, how in the nine hells are you suppose to react to them?

The problem I'm having right now, TED, is that this sort of thing is going on without alternate IDs. I'm having a hard time dealing with all the repressed anger - or not-so-repressed anger that people are feeling towards "those mulitple ID users". Especially since I'm a multiple ID user. I don't like being called, or alluded to, as devious, deceptive, disruptive, disillusioning, useless, spamming, hiding something, poll-stuffing or any of the other aspersions that have been cast here. And there have been plenty. And saying "well of course I didn't mean you" doesn't cut it. It does mean me.

laureanna wrote:

I don't like being called, or alluded to, as devious, deceptive, disruptive, disillusioning, useless, spamming, hiding something, poll-stuffing or any of the other aspersions that have been cast here. And there have been plenty. And saying "well of course I didn't mean you" doesn't cut it. It does mean me.

I think people have gone out of their way to assure you of their support for your sincere use of multiple ids, yet you seem determined to take offense regardless of their efforts to be supportive.

Using an alternate id is hiding something. That isn't an aspersion, it's a fact. What's being discussed here is that there are good reasons for doing that, and bad reasons. No one, as far as I'm aware, has suggested that you used multiple ids for bad reasons.

You can't blame people for their opinions, but I think Cerin got it right. No one has personally called you out. There are good uses (like games and goofy things) and bad uses (deception, etc.) and the inkling I'm getting from some is that the costs are greater than the benefits. I don't doubt that all the posters here now have used multiple IDs for only good. My objections to unknown IDs has to deal with the possibility of poll-stuffing. I am not saying you would be the one doing it, but that it can happen easier than if alternate IDs had the ability to vote. It's hard to pre-emptively punish deception aside from stating: be courteous, don't do it. But at least the voting issue can be reasonably safeguarded ahead of time.


By the way, what's so bad about disillusion? *Points to own name*

Quote:

Would it be so terrible having to hold off your creative urges until then?

No. Not so terrible. My creative urges don't need to be held off, actually, there are so very few...

I think the idea of shelving this decision until after we open the doors-- and I'm thinking even for three or so months-- is an OUTSTANDING idea. I do feel if we end up with an angry, resentful, revengeful stampede from TORC... and maybe we won't, you never know... that most of the "high" feelings will have abated by then.

Much as it seems that I have been arguing FOR alternate id's, I really, really, REALLY don't care. I will not lose a moment's sleep, either way this goes.

I'm just kind of chuffed that my suggestion of compromise, the asterisk idea, was found useful... by at least a few folks here. I contributed! In a small way, certainly... but YEAH!

There was a suggestion to table this discussion until after we open? Wow. I missed that. If that's what we do, that's what we do. This topic is certainly not going to make or break my experience here, despite how much I've discussed it.

TED, that's not what we are going to do. We are going to vote on this issue in the convention, just like all of the other Member's Rights and Responsibilities issues, probably some time next week. Until then (and afterwards, if they want) I encourage people to continue to express their views. Once that article is completed there will be a ten day discussion period before the vote on ratification begins. If it there are major objections to what the committee comes up with about this or any other member's rights issue, then at that point we will have to decide what to do. Hopefully the committee will adopt a compromise that will at least be livable by all. If not, it will probably need to be voted on by the membership separately. But we simply have to give the process a chance to work. It has worked so far, thanks largely to Jnyusa's gargantuan efforts.