board77

Voronwe_the_Faithful wrote:

Lo! Let it be known that board77 shall be a virtual haven for socially-challenged geeks from every corner of the universe who gather together like fish eggs in a jar of caviar seeking the illusion of human contact and cyber-discourse. ...

Best ones yet.


But if we must stick with the current one I prefer Frelga's version. It's more grammatically correct. Misplaced modifiers bother me. . .

Ath, I started out with cyber-intercourse, but I edited it at the last second.

I really, truly prefer the second one, in gorgeous azure!

Reading it out loud, the breath flows like honey - but then, all of Master Yoda's constructs are poetically perfect to my ear.

I'm sorry to break the lighthearted mood (really I am!), but it was suggested that we might be permitted to tweak the third sentence if necessary (since we hadn't worked on them much), and I'm wondering about the correctness of 'aspire to'. Here is my dictionary on 'aspire':

1 : to seek to attain or accomplish a particular goal (aspired to a career in medicine)

I think 'endeavor' or 'strive' would be more correct, since it is something I think we have already created, and actively work to maintain through our by-laws and personal behavior.

'We strive to maintain a culture...'

I think 'aspire' could be correctly used without the 'maintain':

'We aspire to a culture of equality ...'

but that sounds a bit high-collared to me, and makes it seem as though it is far off, rather than the culture we have already established.

*kicks Cerin*

* Refrains from kicking anybody, because kicking leaves bruises *

If we don't change it, will you cringe every time you see it?

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* Refrains from kicking anybody, because kicking leaves bruises *

<remembers to treat Imp with lots of respect>






BTW, I think it looks great either way; I'm voting for it. I do think there's a nuance of difference in the two possible ways to phrase it; however, the general idea is the same, and the general idea is a good one, IMHO.

Just sayin'.

Cerin, I went back and read through the relevant portion of the long mission statement thread and the only thing that was discussed about changing in the third sentence was a completely different issue that you raised. There was not any discussion where it was decided that we could "tweak" that sentence once it was sent to the membership for discussion that I could find. While I completely understand and greatly appreciate your desire to find the best wording possible, we really need to accept that this is the wording that we are voting on, unless its something that we could get a clear consensus that the change needs to be made.

In this case, I can already tell you that we are not going to get a consensus on your suggested change, because I personally feel that "aspire to maintain" is the perfect way of phrasing this.

My dictionary (Mirriam-Webster)has the following definition of "aspire":

Quote:

1. To have a noble desire or ambition.

I looked online at Dictionary.com, and this is what they had:

Quote:

1. To have a great ambition or ultimate goal

In my opinion, it is a noble desire and a great ambition to maintain a culture of respect, equality and openness. It is our ultimate goal to maintain this culture, not just to establish it and then congratulate ourselves on a job well done. I think that this is something that needs to be continually worked on. To me, "aspire to maintain" more successfully conveys the idea that it is a work in progress then "strive to maintain" does. I lalso like the rhythm of it, because the extra syllable gives you a small pause to think about what is really being said.

So I'm afraid you're not going to be able to get a consensus on this suggestion, since I don't agree. Sorry.

I take responsibility for telling Cerin that we might tweak the third sentence after we had chosen one, because I had thrown them up in some haste and while actually voting I realized that a number of the phrases on the ballot had small grammatical errors in them.

This is the problem, though ... I was thinking in terms of obvious bloopers, like leaving out a 'to' or an 'of' or having the same word appear in two consecutive sentences. Once we start examing synonyms for shades of meaning, we are off in a realm where agreement is not likely to be found.

Frelga's correction looked obviously desirable to me, but there were others who said it flows better and sounds more poetic as it is written now. So even a minor re-arrangement like that does not yield consensus.

Much as I would have liked the chance to perfect the MS we picked - focus on one version finally and make it as perfect as possible - there just wasn't time for that. Short of voting on multiple options for word order, synonyms, etc., I don't see us agreeing on anything through discussion.

Agreed.

Frankly, no one is going to ever look at that statement with this intensity and focus ever again. A quick read, a warm and fuzzy inner glow of agreement, and then it'll drop off the radar as soon as the posting frenzy begins.

It's only when looking for nits that the lice become apparent.

Quote:

Frelga's correction looked obviously desirable to me, but there were others who said it flows better and sounds more poetic as it is written now. So even a minor re-arrangement like that does not yield consensus.

Well, but, as I said, people who prefer the sound of the first version are in the minority, so why do we need consensus? The vote for this version wasn't by total consensus either, but by majority vote, so I'm happy with having this be a majority vote, too.

(Can't help it, if the majority doesn't have an ear for music! )

truehobbit wrote:

(Can't help it, if the majority doesn't have an ear for music! )

Hmm...I'm a musician and I prefer Frelga's version.

I'm a writer and editor by trade and I, too, prefer Frelga's version.

Voronwe, you've reassured me as to the acceptability of 'aspire to.'

I agree with TH that as we don't rule by consensus but by majority, the majority opinion should hold sway on the other matter.

I'm a musician and I prefer Frelga's version too. Not because I think that the meaning is any different, but because I think it flows better. But I also think that its fairly subjective and could live with either version.

A word of explanation as to why I refer to consensus here. Yes, we generally rule by majority, not be consensus, but we can't hold a vote on every change to the mission statement that people would like to see. I was going to suggest the possibility of adding a temporary poll on Frelga's "gathering" suggestion, but when Cerin made her suggestion, I realized that that would not work. If I put a poll up on one, I would have to put up a poll on the other. And then someone else would have suggestion that needed to be voted on, and so on, and so on, and so on.

But I do think that if the discussion reveals that there is clearly a strong majority of people that prefer one over the other, I think it would be fair to make the change, unless the people who prefer the original version adamently object. I think that we are getting to that point with Frelga's version. I haven't made a count, but it does seem clear that of those who have expressed a preference between the two, quite a few more have expressed a preference for Frelga's suggestion. Since both hobby and Cerin have expressed the opinion that the majority should rule I am going to go ahead and make the change suggested by Frelga, with a big thank you to hobby and Cerin for being so reasonable.

Similarly, if in the next couple of days a bunch of people express the opinion that they think that "strive to maintain" (or one of the other suggestions made by Cerin) is better then "aspire to maintain" and only a few say that they agree with me that it should stay "aspire to" then we should make that change to. Although perhaps if my explanation of why I liked "aspire" was good enough for Cerin's exacting standards (:love:) it will be good enough for others as well.

Hah, I haven't been called reasonable in a long time! Thanks, Voronwe!

(And as everybody is giving their background to support their tastes now (:roll:) - I'm an MA in English literature, a writer and a musician (though not by professional training, but I don't think Voronwe is either?) - and I think the original scans better. )

Well, I do perform for money so that makes me at least semi-professional. And I have travelled extensively to train with the preeminent musician in the world in the type of music that I play, so I think I can call myself "professionally-trained". That having been said, I'm not saying that you or Cerin is wrong about this. I have too much respect for both of you, particularly when it comes to the use of language, to say that. I'm just saying that its pretty clear that a majority prefers the other version.

And if fifty people all speak up to say that they prefer "Our discourse covers" to "Our conversations cover" I would make that change as well.

Tastes differ, Hobby. I don't question your qualifications to judge at all, or Cerin's! I was just explaining that my preference for Frelga's version probably can't be attributed to being deaf to the flow of language. It's just a matter of individual taste.

Thanks to Hobby and Cerin for allowing Frelga's change.

I agree with Voronwe on using "aspire". There is nothing wrong with Cerin's suggestion, I just like "aspire" better. I agree it is possible to leave out "to maintain", but using it implies we have already achieved some measure of it and I think we have. Leaving it out can allow an interpretation of having made no progress.

Personally I think what we need are some umlauts and circumflexes in the mission statement to make look more authoritative.

Missiön Stâtemënt

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