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Because we are osgiliating the ALINTTTFOTR, here's one scene that I usually fast forward. There are a couple more but I'll get to them later.

This one is relatively innocuous but it still makes me ask why PJ chose to alter and amend the book.

The Watcher in the water ... always a must-miss

Book version:

“The stone vanished with a soft slap; but at the same instant there was a swish and a bubble. Great rippling rings formed on the surface where the stone had fallen, and they moved slowly towards the foot of the cliff.
“Why did you do that Boromir?” said Frod. “ I haTE this place, too, and I am afraid. I don’t know what of, not of wolves, or the dark behind the doors, but of something else. I am afraid of the pool. Don’t disturb it!”

<snip>

He strode forward and set his foot on the lowest step. But at that moment several things happened.
Frodo felt something seize him by the ankle, and he fell with a cry. <snip> The others swung around and saw the waters of the lake seething as if a host of snakes were swimming up from the southern end.

Out of the water a long sinuous tentacle had crawled; it was pale-green and luminous and wet. Its fingered end had hold of Frodo’s foot, and was dragging him into the water. Sam on his knees was now slashing at it with a knife.

The arm let go of Frodo, and Sam pulled him away, crying out for help. Twenty other arms came rippling out. The dark water boiled and there was a hideous stench.

“Into the gateway! Up the stairs! Quick!” shouted Gandalf ….<snip> Gandalf had just begun to climb, when the groping tentacles writhed across the narrow shore and fingered the cliff wall and the doors.
<snip> Many coiling arms seized the doors on either side, and with horrible strength swung them round.
With a shattering echo they slammed, and all light was lost. A noise of rending and crashing came dully through the ponderous stone. ….

Why is this good? For a start because there's the sense of increasing peril.
It is Sam, always alert to any danger to Frodo, always protective, who cuts a the single tentacle grasping Frodo's foot. We see very little of the monster, only the tentacles that come terrifyingly up from the boiling water, groping and writhing, searching for its victim.
Now contrast the scene as written (easy to visualise, at least for me it is)
with the scene PJ gave us ...


>>>>>> The four hobbits are backing toward the door. Something stirs in the water behind them>
Boromir: Now get out of here, get out!
<The whole company starts for the door. Suddenly, Frodo is grabbed from behind and pulled off his feet by the Watcher in the water>
Sam Merry and Pippin: Frodo!
Sam: Strider! <hacks at tentacle> Get off him!
<The watcher releases Frodo for a split-second, and feigns to disappear under the water. Suddenly many tentacles come boiling out of the water its slaps the other hobbits aside and grab Frodo around the leg. He is pulled out over the water and into the air>
Frodo: aah!
Merry: Aragorn!
<Legolas shoots one of the tentacles holding Frodo. Boromir and Aragorn rush to the water with their swords, and attack the Watcher. It flings Frodo wildly in the air. Aragorn slices the main tentacle holding Frodo’s leg. Frodo falls, and Boromir catches him. Aragorn and Boromir retreat towards the shore>
Gandalf: Into the Mines!
Boromir: Legolas! Aim for his eye! Come on!
<Legolas shoots an arrow straight into the Watcher’s eye. It pulls back and as the Fellowship race into Moria, it reaches out and slams the gates shut. Slabs of rocks drop and the roof of the passageway collapses. Total darkness falls.>>>>>>>

I'm sorry WITW defenders, but to my mind, this is plebian filmaking 101.
Grade B 1950's monster movie making at about the same level as all of those repellent giant insectiles terrifying the population and taking over New York before being blown to smithereens by the army.
Maybe it's PJ's homage to 2000 leagues under the sea, but it's so obvious, unsubtle and in-your-face; there's no mounting tension and it's vulgar.
Vulgar in the sense of an over-use of dramatic action moments. There's Frodo suspended and wailing sloooowly being lowered into the gaping jaws of the crature from the black lagoon ( a film I like btw ), Aragorn hacking away, Frodo falling into Boromir's arms (again! ) and Legolas (again!) administering the final coup-de-grace with a well placed arrow.

I really think that if PJ had adapted a version of the original story with it's ever increasing sense of growing evil ... the Watcher seems to be targeting Frodo? or is it? Leaving it to Sam to do the hacking and slashing at one single tentacle. Not showing the monster in such yawn-inspiring detail and the fellowship barely escaping as the tentacles clutch across the shore for them and making it clear that it is the Watcher who slams shuts the doors. I know that this is what happens but I don't think the film makes this at all clear. It could have been so much more effective if PJ hadn't indulged his juvenile fascination with monster movies.

At least I think so.

And then there's the wizard duel and the cave troll. But I'll save those for later.

I don't hate WITW as much as you, but you are so right about why the book version kicks its arse.

I remember looking at the artwork on the FOTR EE, and seeing all the different WITW designs, which only emphasized how much better it would have been not to see it - then it could have been all those designs at once in our minds.

As for what makes me wince? Pippin's bodily functions in Lorien, and that's about it.. the perfume commercial gets close, that could have been so much better (the music is great).

Quote:

This one is relatively innocuous but it still makes me ask why PJ chose to alter and amend the book.

Because he's PJ. Next question.

Seriously, the man is much more a devotee of Grade B 1950's monster movie making then he is of Tolkien. The real question is how such a director was able to get so much right, given his horror-movie-honed film-making instincts.

That having been said, I don't really mind the Watcher. It doesn't take away from my appreciation of the story the way the spider orcs in Moria do.

I also don't mind the cave troll as much as some do, but I dislike the wizard duel more and more over time. It starts out so well, with Gandalf determined to save Frodo, and Saruman closing the doors on him one by one. But then those PJ instincts take over, and it devolves into melodrama (if that is the right word). The thing is, agree with those who say that, unlike the book, the film needed to show Gandalf actually being taken prisoner. But it did not need to be done in the way that it was done. Gandalf's power being overwhelmed by that of Saruman could have been shown in a much more subtle and appropriate way.

Arwen's teary shaking of wheezing Frodo makes me sick. "No, Frodo! Don't give in!" Blah. The fade to the "perfume commercial" is just as bad, it's just awful. My 9-year old loves it, so I just take that time to go to the bathroom.

WITW never bothered me that much. However, I do see your point. The book version was much, much better. The building tension and sense of fear. The movie version is over the top.

The scene in FOTR that bothers me more than anything is the Wizard Duel. I really and truly cannot stand it. The scene actually starts out nicely. I like Gandalf's arrival, with the voice-over narration that actually turns out to be Saruman speaking. I also like them walking in the orchard. It's nicely done, and I love the pan over Isengard, which sets up a nice contrast with later on when it becomes a kind of factory. The palantír is nicely set up for ROTK, as well.

Then, however, we get Saruman closing the doors magically. It's over the top, yes, but more than that, it's just not the kind of thing that Saruman and Gandalf should be doing. Yes, Saruman has fallen, but still, they're the Istari! The heads of the order! And to see them duking it out in a physical (albeit magical) fight debases them. They are supposed to be wise.

Besides, (I could be totally off here) but I never got the impression that the Istari did magic like that. It seemed to be more subtle. So to have them using their "magic" to bash each other up just seems wrong, so inappropriate, so un-Tolkienian. Gandalf isn't supposed to use violence.

So I always fast forward it.

Quote:

The real question is how such a director was able to get so much right, given his horror-movie-honed film-making instincts.

I agree. Sometimes I wonder whether the whole trilogy is not one giant inkspot, where we see the pretty outline and fill in the inner beauty from what we know of Tolkien's world. But there's light and beauty in there that couldn't really happen by accident.

As for my list - the topmost is Arwen putting a knife to Aragorn's throat. I don't mind AATF, and the line "What's this? A Ranger caught off guard?" is lame, but I can live with that. But the knife! There's nothing I can add to what Jnyusa had said back on TORC, so I won't try.

On a tangent, Bakshi's Legolas at the Ford made better sense IMO, but borrowing that idea would've probably been too much.

The incredible collapsing staircase. Need I say more? It's hard to believe that the glorious bridge sequence comes next.

WITW and cave troll don't bother me much. I wish the cave troll fight were shorter, and Watcher really is straight out of a B-movie, what with Frodo's wailing and flailing (again), but it's not a major problem for me.

Wizard-fu. I dislike it intensely, but I have to admit that this was a tough scene to adapt. In all other cases, we have the book-version, which, I agree with Iavas, kicks the movie's arse. All Tolkien tells us is "they took me and set me alone on the pinnacle of Orthanc." We get no clue to who "they" are and how they managed to "take" the mighty Gandalf. While we can safely assume that the staff duel did not take place, I can't offhand propose a better solution.

Bur overall the first movie is my favorite. It's ROTK that I can fast-forward through in a 1 1/2 hours. But the Ride of the Rohirrim is my favorite sequence.

I'm really surprised at some of the attitudes in here! Sure, there are parts of the movies I like less than others. Some I really dislike.

But I NEVER fast forward a scene in a movie. If you do, you're not watching the movie. A movie has a structure and a rhythm that is irreperably damaged if it's altered. This is why PJ and Howard Shore took the trouble to re-edit and rescore the Extended Editions. If you could just cut and paste the movie together out of your favourite bits why would you need highly skilled editors and directors? Why bother building tension if you can cut to the climax?

Do you people skip the bits you don't like in the books also? I hate the whole Bombadil section, but I would never skip it. If I did I would be insulting the author, and I wouldn't be reading the book. I might as well buy the Cliff notes.

Alatar

Very good point Alatar. I can't skip or fastforward through parts I don't like either. For me it just feels wrong. I think you articulated it for me. If I skipped stuff I never would have survived my first read of the Sil. That was difficult. I think I only understood one third of the book yet I read every page incuding the origin of the names in the back of the book.

Alatar ...

We've all seen the films a zillion times.

The first viewing of LOTR - and probably second third and fourth - is absolutely the time to shut up and enjoy in a reverential silence.

But we're talking multiple viewings of LOTR - and countless rereadings of the book.

I've read the book four times. Since I never re-read books all the way through, even my favourites, LOTR is highly privileged. Otherwise I just pick favourite passages to enjoy. It's a book I know like the back of my hand.

And if you hate Bombadil, how is it disrespectful to Tolkien to skip it? It's not like you've never read it before! And it's not like you don't appreciate the bulk of Tolkien's work.

I saw each LOTR film about 15 times - I am not kidding - at the cinema.

I think I'm perfectly entitled to fast forward at home.

I kinda feel like Alatar. Fast-forwarding in the middle of a film just feels weird. That said, there aren't any bits in any of the films that are so bad that I'd feel inclined to. That said, the Arwen-over-acting-over-Frodo-fade-into-white-Rivendell-with-ugly-Elrond-head scene is the most wince-enducing. The only moment that really still makes me wince (this list would've been MUCH longer back during my second or third viewing) is the flaming Nazgul, particularly Aragorn flinging the torch at the last one's face. I think I close my eyes when Aragorn does that and try to pretend it didn't happen.

Wizard duel is kinda lame but I mostly pay attention to the music during this scene so I don't mind it much. Plus, up to the point where they start beating on each other, the acting in this scene is phenomenal. Lee's best scene in the trilogy, imo.

I agree with Alatar, but the one exception I will make is the Corsairs scene in ROTK, because being the first scene on disc 2 it's simple just to start disc 2 with Shelob without breaking the flow.

I do not think I have ever fast forwarded. I saw FOTR with a friend once and she FF through all the Arwen parts. I was so shocked!!! When reading the books I even read through the appendicies every time. I just can't skip them, it's like it's not complete unless I read them. Also, I can never say I read a book until it's cover to cover for me. Until then, i can only say I have read parts. Even if it's just one or 2 stories left.

I tend to FF all the Frodo and Sam scenes in ROTK before Shelob apart from Minas Morgul lighting up (kickass on the speakers).

In FOTR, the handling Watcher I can deal with, a knife at Aragorn's throat, no problem. Arwen's role beefed up is fine. Frodo's courage somewhat diminished and the Reluctant Ranger makes me twinge, but it's bearable.

It's the blubbering over Frodo I can't stand - as if she's known him for thousands of years. So many tears - no wonder the Bruinen flooded.

And as for the she-elf line and her retort, well let's just say that because I can swear on this board, I could express my feeling more clearly on that one.

Forgive me, O Grand Hippopotamos, but I love Arwen's acting in the scene you hate.

Maybe because I'm mainly into live theatre rather than film, I'm used to acting which of necessity has to be "bigger" than film acting. Perhaps if you saw me in performance, you'd consider my acting to be "over the top"? Oh well, to each his own.

Actually, there's nothing in Fellowship that I really dislike except the Cave Troll scene - it just goes on so loooooong.

I don't like to fast-forward scenes I don't like - it just takes me out of the movie experience. In the whole trilogy, there's only one scene that I hate enough to be sorely tempted to fast-forward, but it isn't in Fellowship.

Actually, Jude, it's not that the acting is bad (I think it's pretty good actually), it just that the tone hits the wrong note, as it were. Like she's singing a nice harmony to the wrong song (to put it in perhaps more stage theatre-esque terms ). Part of it is that the emotional freak-out is kinda abrupt and sudden and another part is, like Steve said, the emotions come off too visceral and personal to be over someone she's never met before.

PS - The Cave Troll scene is still kewl.

When you considering the entire fate of Middle Earth rests in Frodo's hands, do you still find her reactions too visceral and personal?

If Frodo becomes a wraith, who would then take up the ring? Bilbo? (assuming it's even possible to take the ring away from Frodo the wraith)

Jude wrote:

When you considering the entire fate of Middle Earth rests in Frodo's hands, do you still find her reactions too visceral and personal?

It doesn't rest in his hands at this point in the film. He hasn't been given that task yet and nobody knows what they're going to do with the ring.

And I think that movie woulda been better if they'd given the ring to Legolas. That woulda rocked.

Quote:

When you considering the entire fate of Middle Earth rests in Frodo's hands, do you still find her reactions too visceral and personal?

Yes.

Jude wrote:

When you considering the entire fate of Middle Earth rests in Frodo's hands, do you still find her reactions too visceral and personal?

(Crosspost with yov)

No.

At that time, Frodo's only task is to get the ring to Rivendell, which he has effectively done at that point.

Even Elrond didn't know how to get the ring to Mount Doom, and I doubt Arwen was wiser than he and knew Frodo's future involvement. Unless she had another vision, and I doubt that.

Sorry, Arwen's blubbering looked like a schoolgirl crying because her pet froggy of many years has gone belly up.

...and I like the idea of Legolas getting the ring. He just needed to get to the feet of Mount Doom, tie the ring to an arrow and do a kewl shot.