The only reason I post here again is because now there's this "Farawen promotes censorship" thing hanging out there. Makes me uncomfortable and I feel the need to clarify. I'll come to that in a minute.
Although, if I may say so - certain European nations do have more circumscribed freedom of speech than America, in part because of the Nazi regime. (You actually make this point yourself.)
Of course you may say so, and yes, I actually made that point myself. But I would very much like to add that in part because of the Nazi regime, certain European nations also have something called human dignity in prominent places in their constitutions, which to respect and protect is the duty of all state authority. I believe that's why we don't have capital punishment, an extensive welfare state, and a Chancellor called Gerhard Schröder right now - he pretty much won his second election by refusing to join the war in Irap.
And let me say this also. To me, free speech is neither an absolute nor a near-absolute value. Because the only thing that comes close to being an absolute value for me is human dignity. Free speech is essential for a healthy democracy, and citizens who don't speak up don't do their country a favor, IMO. But free speech needs to have its limits. I realize that's not the American way to look at it (I've lived in the U.S. for a while), and you're right, tp, thank God the world is big enough for both types. (Although we may be slowly running out of space.) The way I see it, one can look at censoring Hitler's writings as the state censoring Neonazis because the state simply can censor them, and does so; or one can look at it as protecting the dignity of the Jews and their families who suffered and died across Europe 60 years ago, their memory, and their legacy. I promote the latter. I still think Neonazis should be allowed to form parties, go on demonstrations, speak up against taxes, whatever, as long as they don't violate the rights of others and their right to human dignity. And they are allowed to do so where I live. I draw the line at someone reading from
Mein Kampf to me on a public bus though. If that makes me an advocate of censorship in your eyes, I can, and will, live with that just fine.
But before this discussion turns political let me stress I wasn't making any comparisons to messageboards or whatever just then, I was just adding my thoughts to the issue of Europeans and their past-Nazi way of doing things.
Anyway. To sum up my thoughts while reading the last few posts and to return to the issue of b77, please allow me to put it like this:
"I'm hungry."
"Yeah, me too."
"Let's cook something?"
"Sure. What do we have?"
"Well, lessee... toast... and grapes... and eggs.. and... That's about it I believe."
"Let's make an omelette and then have the grapes for dessert."
*silence*
"What?"
"Oh my god, you just promoted violence against eggs."
"Huh?"
"You said... You said to break eggs."
"I said, 'Let's make an omelette.' What's the matter with you?"
"You said to break eggs!"
"Okay. I'm... going out for Chinese now."
essentially, you are suggesting that you want a truly "moderated" community where certain views are not tolerated - are, if you will pardon the word, censored.
No, I do not want a truly moderated community where certain views are not tolerated. I want everybody to be able to say their piece, because as I said elsewhere some time ago, that's the only way I can be sure that I will always be allowed to say my piece. And dammit, I need to say my piece. I am not talking about censorship, I am talking about the protection of minorities - or rather, to borrow a phrase from TORN's magnificent post, of those who are not part of the "culture", who don't share the popular "world view" around here.
Using an over the top example to illustrate, (using my name for convenience but this has in fact never happened to me here), I am not promoting that everybody who says "Farawen sucks" should get their asses banned within seconds of posting. Absolutely not. What I am saying is that I wouldn't want to see on here is "You know what? I probably shouldn't tell you this, but I have seen Farawen kick puppies. Repeatedly. And she told me that she likes kicking them." Again, I'm not promoting that you as the community should react by banning people left and right. What I'm saying is that deep down, I just wish this community had an atmosphere that would discourage people from posting that kind of thing.
Vison, you're right in saying that probably the best way to react to an insulting post is to ignore it.What I have a problem with though is that many on here seem to have less a problem with insulting posts than I do. Sure, b77 is not perfect, and I'm not expecting it to be. What throws me though is that for a community that promotes respect, equality, openness, and all the other good things that come with people treating each other the way they want to be treated, this community is pretty exclusive.
Take for example the fact that Alys isn't posting here. Many of you have expressed you'd embrace her with open arms if she showed up here, and I believe that you would. But that probably won't make her post here, and that's one example of what I mean by b77's exclusiveness. If you're not in the "culture", then you're not in the "culture", and I'm sorry to say but there are not enough hugging smilies in the world to change that.
Before you ask, I have absolutely no suggestion as to how to change this. Or rather, I have no idea how this community could change this. After this thread, it's become pretty clear to me that that's the way you (as in, the majority) want things around here. And I can live with that, of course, but not as a member of this community. B77 will certainly not crumble to dust when I leave, and many good things probably lie in the future of this board. Me, I'll probably be doing other things in some other corner of the internet by then.
What I'm not entirely comfortable with, and I apologize if this sounds harsh, is that when I say I don't feel like a member of this community anymore, people reply with a variant of "Oh, but you are, and there's really nothing you can do about it." That I get emails and messages telling me basically that I suck for abandoning you guys. Or that I get subtle (or not so subtle) hints concerning the fact that the only person that can silence me on here is myself. Of course I silence myself in a community when I decide to leave said community because I don't want to be part of it anymore, and of course my voice then won't be heard in future debates concerning it. I'm perfectly aware of that. But isn't this kind of the point? Isn't it my choice to lend my voice to whatever I feel it worth lending to?
At this point of the discussion, I hope you all can accept my decision without taking it personal or whatever. Let's just agree to disagree after this thread, those of you who disagree with me, and part ways in peace.