board77

tp, I completely disagree with your post.

Well, actually only this part:

Quote:

I'm not in this group, of course

tp wrote:

Does anyone have any reason to think that he was personally hurt by what happened?

I always felt it was more of an annoyance for him, but that's only my assumption. I couldn't know as I've never talked with him about it.

I had an idea for a different kind of bridge-building which I posted here. Feel free to post thoughts about it either here at this thread or there at that one. (And don't be afraid to tell me why its a terrible idea )

Voronwe,

I can think of no reason not to resurrect the Sador Labadol Memorial Poll at TORC as well.

However, regarding the idea of an official invitation to any official group at TORC, or even the idea of posting about our opening on TORC ....

I've thought this over and I do not believe that it will get the reception that we hope for. The threads that track the rift between members here and the administration there are not the sort of thing that their administration allows to be aired in public. Whatever we do or say, they will perceive the continued visibility of those threads as a continuation of the affront.

I think it is possible, desirable and inevitable that individual members will heal the rifts between them and eventually move back and forth between the two MBs without a second thought.

But I don't think that the administrative philosophy of TORC and the administrative philosophy of B77 can co-exist in the same room. The very suggestion to them that they should try to see things our way might well make the situation worse instead of better.

So I would much prefer that each of us handle this as individuals and that there be no formal announcements aimed at TORC.

Eventually that history will end up archived for reasons of space and obsolescence, and until then I honestly don't believe it is possible for there to be a formal relationship between us and our ancestor. Our respective views of the world are simply too different.

Jn

Someone, somewhere, said that ideology wasn't important when it came to posters here and at TORC.

It would be nice, perhaps, if that were true. But it isn't. It is true for SOME posters, perhaps even most. But as Jny notes, the two communities are organized around fundamentally different principals, even antithetical ones. And anyone who really, really believes in their principals is going to have a hard time admitting they are wrong about it.

Especially if they are. And let us be honest, if we didn't think we had a better way of running a site, why would we have spent months on a charter? Why would we be still be here at all?

There are people at TORC who are good, honest, wonderful people. A fair chunk of the ones I know are also here. But it's never going to be 100%, and we had best accept that now.

Jny wrote:

But I don't think that the administrative philosophy of TORC and the administrative philosophy of B77 can co-exist in the same room. The very suggestion to them that they should try to see things our way might well make the situation worse instead of better.

I feared that someone was going to make this appraisal but I think, at this point in time especially, you're right Jny; and later on, even more months down the road, no one will care anymore.

I'm too much of an idealist. Ah well, never mind.

Individual bridge building is good. It does not have to be a 'monumental' group thing.

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Resident witchâ„¢

I understand the sentiment behind what is being proposed here, but I would ask that we don't send anything on behalf of the members of Board77.

There are a significant portion of the population here who do not want that, or feel there is no reason for that and who would not, on pain of giving up on this place, sign anything that was a global bridge building.

If individuals want to invite people over, so be it. But remember two very important points.

1) There are people here who have moved on from TORC and for who the presence of some people from TORC will hurt, deeply.

2) This place is not TORC. That's right, we are a seperate messageboard, with seperate identity and although at the moment we are predominatly from TORC I would hope in future to find other people not from that particular gene-pool.

So, rather than approaching TORC in that lamprey fashion, can I sugest that if any bridge building is done it happens the other way. Let them acknowledge us.

I do agree with Voronwe's sugestion that the admin here send a courtesy mail to the TORC admin to say we are open. But leave it as that, no dialogues. If they want to mail back, so be it (if so, can we know what they say?). If they don't, so what?

And opening a thread on TORC to say we are open is just bad.

And a joint poll....... you have got to be fucking kidding! No way, no way at all.

But please no bridge building on behalf of B77. If individuals want to invite individuals, so be it.

Remember, there are only three or four people here who are banned from TORC, and I understand that they have pretty much severed ties. For the rest who may want to chat, play etc with thier friends on TORC, well you are not banned, you can do it there

Din, I completely agree with most of what you say, but (not surprisingly) I am puzzled by this:

Dindraug wrote:

And a joint poll....... you have got to be fucking kidding! No way, no way at all.

Could you elaborate on why you think this is such a bad idea?

Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:

Din, I completely agree with most of what you say, but (not surprisingly) I am puzzled by this:

Dindraug wrote:

And a joint poll....... you have got to be fucking kidding! No way, no way at all.

Could you elaborate on why you think this is such a bad idea?

Simple, we are not TORC, why should we want to think about doing anything jointly? To be honest, I was completely thrown by your sugestion hence my outburst.

If we have two communities, we have two communities.

Let's not complicate things.

Thanks for elaborating, Din. I didn't, btw, consider it an outburst, or particularly an angry reaction directed at me, so no worries there.

I can't say that I completely agree with you. Just because b77 and TORC are two separate communities doesn't mean that there can't be intercourse between them on subjects about which members of both communities have interest. Nonetheless, I am not going to go through with the idea, both because I don't want to do anything that any members here would find offensive, and also because I personally don't feel ready to post at all at TORC, so I would have to find someone to be my proxy over there, which wouldn't be right.

So its all good.

Dindraug wrote:

If we have two communities, we have two communities.

This I agree with.

However, I don't think Voronwe's idea of a joint point is a bad one at all. People keep saying that we need to do "active bridge building." Frankly, I'm not sure I concur. People are talking about writing letters, etc. But I don't think anyone needs more words. Both Windfola and GDM have expressed feeling hurt that people left. Well, this is a gesture, which, IMHO is better than just writing letters, to show those back at TORC who may also have felt abandoned that yes, we do still care about them.

That said, I'm still not convinced that any active bridge building needs to be done as a concerted effort.

Now that I think more about bridge building with TORC, I find no reason to be a part of it. Not on a community level at least. I've burned no bridges with TORC. I post there still because I like Manwe. My bridge is, and always was standing.

Bridge building on a community level might not work because this isn't a case where simple majority need win out. Some people here don't want to build a bridge, and to do anything as a "community" would be unfair to those who want no part of it. Individual bridge building is fine. Email whomever you like. Invite anyone willing.

If I may clarify, my first post (which Alandriel copied to commence this thread) had nothing to do with an organised community reconciliation. For one thing, I don't think that way and for another, I suspect neither we (all of the members) nor TORC (all of the members) are united in tastes, needs, experiences, desires, needs, outlooks...

We can't speak with one voice; they can't speak with one voice; or at least, it can't be done with any sense of true representation.

My concern was with building personal bridges, between hurt individuals. My idea was that if any one of us as has an acquaintance on TORC who has unresolved hurt or confusion about this last tumultuous period, reach out as an individual with good will to try and heal the hurt.

That's all.

There are still walking wounded in various places. If we care, as individuals, about any of these people, we can act rather than retreating into ourselves and feeling bad about it silently and at a distance.

Quote:

Now that I think more about bridge building with TORC, I find no reason to be a part of it. Not on a community level at least. I've burned no bridges with TORC. I post there still because I like Manwe. My bridge is, and always was standing.

Exactley, Thank you TED.

Impy, it is commendable what you are doing, but try to remember there are hurt people here too, and that we did not do wrong. Sorry to be blunt, but having a bad day already.

Thanks,

Din, the one does not negate the other; there are two edges to every blade, after all, and I'm very aware that some of the cuts are deep and alot of people on all sides of the equation are still feeling scarred.

Whoever does the reaching out, the results will flow in all directions, I think. Reconciliation helps all, IMO.

I think so too Impenitent and sorry, I should have made it more clear in my first post that your carried over post did not imply any kind of group action. That was me - stretching things just a bit further.

As I said, I wanted to feel all of you out and it is clear, that the vast majority would rather go for individual bridge building where that is possible and desireable. And that's a good thing.

I'm all too aware that quite a number of people are still hurting, here and there. As was said elsewhere a while ago and by someone else but it's also my sentiment, I can only hope that in time these hurts will be mended.



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Resident witchâ„¢

For what it's worth, I do not see any point in a "group" attempt to communcate with (say) Jon and Ted - nor do I think that was Impenitent's suggestion.

Speaking only for myself, I would like to see the wounds healed. I think this must be done on a personal level. I also think it will take time - maybe a lot of time. What happened, happened. It cannot be undone. But holding grudges in perpetuity isn't... well, I just hope it doesn't happen, that's all.

Dindraug wrote:

1) There are people here who have moved on from TORC and for who the presence of some people from TORC will hurt, deeply.

I assume you are speaking at least partly for yourself. Why not just go ahead and name the names of those whose presence would hurt you deeply? That way they will know they will never be welcome here, no matter what a friend might have said to them privately.

I would just let it happen naturally.

A new nightclub has opened up in town. Some people hate the idea and stick with the old one. Some frequent the new one. Some go to both.

Word gets around about the new nightclub - either good or bad. People who are regulars at the new nightclub and enjoy it tell there friends about it, hoping to spend time with their friends there.

That's how it works. That's how it always works.

Just tell your friends, not everyone on your e-mail list. Otherwise you might as well send out flyers. Yes, it accelerates any migration, but I for one just want it to happen organically.

And this town *is* big enough for the both of us.

I don't know of any occassion where the new nightclub sends a letter to the old one saying as a matter of courtesy that they have opened. Trust me, they know already. You think the mods/admins haven't mentioned it to Jonathan already?

I'd just chill and tell friends.

Having said all that, for the Florida m77t, Estel and I made a special note to personally invite GDM, windfola (slightly unhappy B77ers who we don't know so well) and Tooks and Mammo (who we have met at m00ts before but turned down invites here earlier). Only GDM has responded so far - alas she couldn't make it.

Last I checked, Ethel, Din wasn't the official membership approval committee for B77. Whether or not one member dislikes someone is not grounds for keeping them out. In fact, there are NO grounds for keeping someone out now.

But there is also no way to make someone like someone either.

There are people at TORC--not many--that I consider a waste of good amino acids. But there are people in general who fit that bill for me too. They are all welcome here, because that's what we wanted, as a community. That's not the same as pretending that everyone who comes here is going to be welcomed equally by everyone.

Ethel, the people Din are refering to know it full well. They know Din's views whether he enunciates it or not. And it isn't related to B77 either. It goes back to a year before it ever existed.

I think.

I mean, there are two people I would not want from TORC here - one of which is the same as Din's but for different reasons, but if they come here I'll just ignore them, hope they have a good time and that they do not interrupt my own enjoyment. I'm sure Din's the same.

I think.

Din, correct me if I'm wrong.