board77

Its been brought to my attention that I left a couple people off the list of scores that I posted. I will remedy that when I go home (where the spreadsheet lives).

fisssh wrote:

I like Foundations of Stone very much - the image of Gandalf and the Balrog falling into the subterranean lake is sublime - but I guess I find it curious that not only was it ranked the best TTT scene, but it made it into the top ten of all scenes. Would anyone who ranked it very high (not counting me cos I ranked everything very high! ) care to comment on why this was the best of all TTT scenes to you?

It wasn't. Even though I ranked it a 10. Really I should have ranked it a 9.8 or 9.9, deducting a fraction for the actual fight between Gandalf and the Balrog. But the image of them falling like a star into the lake is so beautiful it takes one's breath away.

Arwen's Fate I think is close to a perfect 10 ... although ... Where is the Horse and the Rider? brings me to tears every time ... but that is due more to the immense and epic sorrow convayed so convincingly by Bernard Hill rather than any visuals.

How did I rank each chapter? Like Anthy, totally subjectively. I didn't compare to any other film. If it intuitively felt right, if it resonated in a similar way as the book, if it gave me goosebumps and I recognized some truth, (which cannot really be verbalized btw), the scene received a 10.
The more the scene deviated from my perception of LOTR's internal truths the lower the score.

What I find quite interesting is that most (all?) of the highest ranked chapters stick very closely to Tolkien. As a group, we didn't rate any of PJ's inventions (ALINTTTFOTR, MOS etc) too highly.

Sass,

I noticed that too.

TORN,

Thank you for that elaborate explanation!

"What transports you?"

I've been thinking about that question since I read it in your post, but don't have time now to compose a suitable answer. Like Cerin, I used a benchmark at the top and the bottom. The benchmarks had to be films that took on epic-type material, because that is what LotR aspired to, I believe. The top for me was Lawrence of Arabia and the Bottom was Star Wars. So, if it was as good or almost as good as what Lean would have done, it was a ten. If it was worse than what Lucas would have done, it was a zero.

I'll post later (possibly tomorrow) some of my ideas about what makes a scene (or a whole film) truly great.

Jn

Friends, I have made a large error. Somehow, even though they got entered into the spreadsheet, I managed to delete Axordil and HaplosDog's scores before I calculated the results. My sincerely apologies to both of them, and my thanks to Haplos for pointing out that the two of them were not listed in the list of posters who had posted here.

I have updated the results in the first post of this thread (though not in the party thread, so if you really want, you can compare them).

There are some significant differences. The End of All Things has moved up to No. 3, above the Prologue (yeah!). The Foundations of Stone has jumped up from no. 10 to no. 8, and I Can't Carry It ... moved up to 9th from 11th, while the Breaking of the Fellowship has dropped from 8th to 10th and the Beacons have dropped from 9th to 11th. The Crack of Doom has jumped up all the way from 18 to 15, and Mt. Doom from 20 to 18. Etc. Etc.

Sorry about the error.

Since I've watched almost all of two of the films recently and some of the other, I think I could manage the 188. It sounds like a good thing to do on the plane. That kind of ranking would carry more meaning and probably move Arwen's Fate up on my list.

That's probably a fair scale Jnyusa, although I think I would have been more generous to PJ than you.

Hey Voronwe, we are all only human
It'll be fun to hash out the results all over again

As for the rating from 1 to 188, i guess that could be deemed insane...
(Rubs hands together insanely) Mwahaha! I can hear my kids rolling their eyes at me. "Ah nawwww. Mom's at LOTR again...."

Quote:

Mwahaha! I can hear my kids rolling their eyes at me. "Ah nawwww. Mom's at LOTR again...."

Oh, Lacemaker, my kids too! They come wandering out, peer around the corner to see what I'm watching, and then go off shaking their heads and muttering. I am very concerned that they might be sewing a mommy-sized straight-jacket back in their rooms...

Sass wrote:

How did I rank each chapter? Like Anthy, totally subjectively.

Well, subjective to my feelings about it, anyway. I didn't force it to have a bell curve, where there had to be a zero and a 10, and I didn't compare it to any other movies. Although, as I have said, I realized how much a very good overall movie experience it was after I finished watching the latest Star Wars series. Oy. Now that wouldn't have cracked 3 as an average for me...


<Hi, Sass!>

Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:

The End of All Things has moved up to No. 3, above the Prologue (yeah!).

Yeah from me too! The entire Mount Doom sequence is my overall favorite, so I'm glad to see one of the scenes in the top three.

fisshy, all four of the Mt. Doom sequences moved up, and they are now all in the top 18 (which puts them all in the top 10 percent).

Its interesting to see the The Fighting Uruk-Hai was the lowest ranked chapter in FOTR, and the only one in the overall bottom 10%. How sad that A Knife in the Dark is the next lowest - what a wasted opportunity. That had all the makings for a great scene. No surprise that the next lowest is the Wizard Duel, but I am a bit surprise at how low Gilraen's Memorial ended up; I guess that's mainly a reaction to Aragorn's "I do not want that power; I have never wanted that power."

Quite a few scenes ended up much lower then I ranked them. "Eowyn's Dream" and "The Nazgul Attack" top that list. The latter is very possibly my favorite scene in all of the films, and yet it finished at No. 116.

Hmmm.

5 of the top 10 chapters are from FOTR.



2.The Departure of Boromir,
4.Prologue.
5.The Bridge of Khazad-Dum.
7.Very Old Friends.
10.The Breaking of the Fellowship.

V., Parth Galen (one of my favourites because it includes Aragorn rejecting the ring) needs to be green not red.



You prefer The Nazgul Attack over all other scenes? Even although it deviates from the book? Or because it deviates?

Or, if you don't want to go into it again, you can just point me to the appropriate TORC thread.

Of course, I would be game for doing the 1-188 ranking. Though I don't think it's as accurate as the poll we've just done. To give an example, The Final Tally and The Corsairs were the only scenes, I believe, that I rated much below a 6. They would fully deserve the handicap of getting scores of 187/188. But the 186th scene, which I rate as a pretty flawed, but not completely awful scene, would receive almost the same points handicap, even though I find it considerably better. There is a significant difference between 3/10 and 6/10, but virtually no difference between 188 points and 186 points.

Yeah, and how to choose no1? How do you choose between Arwen's Fate and The Departure of Boromir or Ride of the Rohirrim?

Without going insane.

I'm kind of surprised that Knife in the Dark ranked lower than Flight to the Ford - which was actually only "8th worst" of FotR above the fairly innocuous Bucklebury Ferry among others. I guess all that AATF angst has cooled off!

Quote:

Yeah, and how to choose no1? How do you choose between Arwen's Fate and The Departure of Boromir or Ride of the Rohirrim?

Without going insane.

Quite right. The last time that was done I can't remember if I ever did come to a final decision on my favourite.

That one is easy for me!

The 'purest Tolkien moment' - without any plot deviations, additions or subtractions, without any distortion of the story, with a still camera and a perfect angle and perfect pace and movement, wonderful light and sound, conceived with proper magnificence and shot straight on by a director who had gotten exactly the picture he wanted ...

The Argonath.

That's the trailer that got me into the movie and it remains my clearest pleasing impression from all three films.

It's not that hard to please me. I just nearly always think that less is more, and PJ is way into embellishment nearly all the time so much of his composition burns me out pretty fast.

Jn

OK, I obviously should have spoken up. A Knife in the Dark is one of my favorite scenes, one I tend to watch twice, with a quick rewind. And the Departure of Boromir is the only one I fast forward thru if I'm short on time. In fact, if I can only get a short dose of LOTR, it has got to be something with Frodo in it. MovieFrodo, BookFrodo, or whatever.

I was in no way awed by the Ride of the Rohirim. As I have stated vociferously before, I'd be happy with far fewer orcs than PJ has gleefully given us. I wasn't awed by the Lighting of the Beacons either (looks too much like where I live LOL), but I do agree with the rest of your top 10 choices and have no quibbles with the bottom choices.

Right now I'm up to my gills in packing and preparing to move. Once I'm moved in, with no TV, no family (they're moving later), and no plans for the evening, I should have lots of time to watch movies and go crazy. I'll be sure to pack my LOTR DVDs and my lap top.

Purest Tolkien scene? Probably the really looooonnnng boring ent scenes. Not good movie scenes, but very close to Tolkien's non-hasty ents.

Here is my ballot. I'm sorry it is too late for the party. I have marked according to how it compares to most good films, how well PJ captured Tolkien and the emotional impact. A competent scene got an 8, an excellent scene got a 9, a transcendental scene got a 10. I marked down when PJ made a mess of a cinematic gift such as the downfall of Sauron or Eowyn and the Witchking. I marked down when his inventions muddied or delayed the story. I generally marked high because this film stands heads above most others.

Fellowship of the Ring
1. Prologue ...9
2. Concerning Hobbits ...8
3. The Shire ...8
4. Very Old Friends... 9
5. A Long-expected Party ...9
6. Farewell Dear Bilbo ...9
7. Keep It Secret, Keep It Safe... 8
8. The Account of Isildur ...7
9. At the Green Dragon... 8
10. The Shadow of the Past ...8
11. The Passing of the Elves... 9
12. Saruman the White ...7
13. A Short Cut to Mushrooms... 6
14. Bucklebury Ferry ...8
15. At the Sign of the Prancing Pony... 7
16. The Nazgûl .....8
17. The Midgewater Marshes... 8
18. The Spoiling of Isengard... 6
19. A Knife in the Dark ...6
20. The Caverns of Isengard ...6
21. Flight to the Ford ...8
22. Rivendell... 9
23. Many Meetings... 8
24. The Fate of the Ring...7
25. The Sword That Was Broken...7
26. The Evenstar ...6
27. The Council of Elrond...7
28. Gilraen's Memorial ...8
29. Bilbo's Gifts ...9
30. The Departure of the Fellowship ...6
31. The Ring Goes South ...9
32. The Pass of Caradhras...8
33. Moria ...8
34. A Journey in the Dark ...8
35. Balin's Tomb ...6
36. The Bridge of Khazad-dûm...9
37. Lothlórien...8
38. Caras Galadhon ...8
39. The Mirror of Galadriel...6
40. The Fighting Uruk-hai ...6
41. Farewell to Lórien ...8
42. The Great River ...9
43. Parth Galen ...9
44. The Breaking of the Fellowship...10
45. The Departure of Boromir...10
46. The Road Goes Ever On... 8

The Two Towers
1. The Foundations of Stone ...10
2. Elven Rope...9
3. The Taming of Sméagol...9
4. The Uruk-hai ...8
5. The Three Hunters...8
6. The Burning of the Westfold ...8
7. Massacre at the Fords of Isen...9
8. The Banishment of Éomer...6
9. On the Trail of the Uruk-hai ...8
10. Night Camp at Fangorn...8
11. The Riders of Rohan ...9
12. The Fate of Merry and Pippin...8
13. Treebeard...7
14. The Passage of the Marshes...9
15. The White Rider...8
16. The Song of the Entwives ...5
17. The Heir of Númenor ...5
18. The Black Gate is Closed ...7
19. Ent Draft...7
20. The King of the Golden Hall...7
21. The Funeral of Théodred ...9
22. Simbelmynë on the Burial Mounds...8
23. The King's Decision...7
24. Brego...5
25. The Ring of Barahir ...6
26. A Daughter of Kings ...8
27. Exodus from Edoras...8
28. The Forests of Ithilien...8
29. Gollum and Sméagol ...8
30. Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit ...8
31. Dwarf Women ...5
32. One of the Dúnedain...5
33. The Evenstar...5
34. The Wolves of Isengard...7
35. Helm's Deep ...8
36. Isengard Unleashed...8
37. The Grace of the Valar ...4
38. Arwen's Fate ...10
39. The Story Forseen from Lórien...5
40. The Window on the West...8
41. Sons of the Steward ...9
42. The Forbidden Pool ...7
43. Aragorn's Return...5
44. Entmoot...5
45. The Glittering Caves ...8
46. "Where is the Horse and the Rider?" ...10
47. "Don't Be Hasty, Master Meriadoc!"...6
48. The Host of the Eldar...9
49. The Battle of the Hornburg...10
50. Old Entish ...5
51. The Breach of the Deeping Wall...9
52. The Entmoot Decides...5
53. The Retreat to the Hornburg...7
54. Master Peregrin's Plan ...5
55. Osgiliath... 6
56. The Last March of the Ents ...8
57. The Nazgûl Attack...7
58. Forth Eorlingas ...7
59. The Flooding of Isengard...10
60. The Tales That Really Mattered...9
61. Fangorn Comes to Helm's Deep ...8
62. The Final Tally ...5
63. Flotsam and Jetsam...7
64. Farewell to Faramir...6
65. "The Battle for Middle-earth is About to Begin" ...6
66. Gollum's Plan ...8

Return of the King
1. The Finding of the Ring ...2
2. Journey to the Cross-roads ...8
3. The Road to Isengard ...8
4. The Voice of Saruman ...8
5. Return to Edoras...9
6. Gollum's Villainy...8
7. Éowyn's Dream...8
8. The Palantír...8
9. Arwen's Vision ...10
10. The Reforging of Narsil...7
11. Minas Tirith ...9
12. The Decline of Gondor ...9
13. Cross-roads of the Fallen King ...10
14. "The Deep Breath Before the Plunge"...9
15. Minas Morgul...10
16. Sam's Warning ...7
17. Pippin's Task ...8
18. Osgiliath Invaded ...7
19. The Lighting of the Beacons ...9
20. Théoden's Decision...9
21. The Fall of Osgiliath ...7
22. The Wizard's Pupil...8
23. The Stairs of Cirith Ungol ...9
24. "Courage is the Best Defense"...8
25. Peregrin of the Tower Guard ...9
26. Allegiance to Denethor...9
27. The Parting of Sam and Frodo...2
28. The Sacrifice of Faramir...7
29. Marshalling at Dunharrow ...9
30. Andúril - Flame of the West ...6
31. Aragorn Takes the Paths of the Dead...8
32. "No More Despair"...8
33. Dwimorberg - The Haunted Mountain ...8
34. The Muster of Rohan ...9
35. The Paths of the Dead ...2
36. The Siege of Gondor ...9
37. The Corsairs of Umbar...1
38. Shelob's Lair ...9
39. Merry's Simple Courage...9
40. Grond - The Hammer of the Underworld...10
41. The Tomb of the Stewards ...8
42. Breaking the Gate of Gondor...8
43. The Choices of Master Samwise...10
44. Denethor's Madness ...6
45. The Witch King's Hour...9
46. The Ride of the Rohirrim...9
47. The Pyre of Denethor ...6
48. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields...9
49. "A Far Green Country"...10
50. The Nazgûl and His Prey ...8
51. The Black Ships ...5
52. Shieldmaiden of Rohan...7
53. Victory at Minas Tirith...5
54. The Passing of Théoden ...9
55. Oaths Fulfilled ...6
56. The Houses of Healing...7
57. Pippin Looks After Merry ...9
58. The Tower of Cirith Ungol...8
59. The Last Debate...3
60. Aragorn Masters the Palantír ...3
61. The Captain and the White Lady...7
62. In the Company of Orcs...8
63. The Land of Shadow ...8
64. The Mouth of Sauron ...4
65. The Black Gate Opens ...5
66. "I Can't Carry It For You...But I Can Carry You" ...9
67. The Last Move...6
68. Mount Doom...9
69. "The Eagles Are Coming!"...8
70. The Crack of Doom...9
71. Sauron Defeated...6
72. The End of All Things...10
73. The Fellowship Reunited ...7
74. The Return of the King...8
75. Homeward Bound ...9
76. The Grey Havens ...9

jeanelf wrote:

Maybe we need to do it again.....

Would we need a committee to decide whether we can do it again so soon after the first time round?

I just went through the results - very interesting, and yet basically what I'd have expected from all the conversations I've had or read about the movies.

Thanks for all your hard work on this, Voronwe!

I'm not going to attempt to provide an explanation for these statistics, merely present them. I'll let you guys try and work out why men and women score differently, as do North Americans and Non-North Americans.

Overall Analysis – By Film

As the V-man said, FOTR was the favorite film of the three, and TTT the least favorite:

Code: Select all Film FOTR 8.19 ROTK 7.89 TTT 7.50 Total 7.83

As you can see, all movies score highly in the 8’s and 9’s, but TTT loses out on the 10/10 scenes.


Overall Analysis – By Book
If we look at it by book (the Voice of Saruman, although in movie ROTK is Book 3; Osligiation, although never written, would be Book 4):

Code: Select all Book 6 8.39 2 8.34 1 7.97 5 7.83 4 7.68 3 7.44 Total 7.83

Note how the curve is different for Book 6.


Overall Analysis – By Gender

Code: Select all Film F M Diff FOTR 8.24 8.12 0.12 ROTK 8.11 7.58 0.53 TTT 7.57 7.41 0.16 Total 7.96 7.65 0.31

So the ranking is the same, with Females scoring higher than the Males for all three movies. This is also true of the books.

Looking at the individual chapters, the three biggest differences where Females scored them higher than the Males did were:
The Paths of the Dead (F 5.94, M 4.37)
Gollum's Villainy (F 8.11, M 6.80)
Pippin Looks After Merry (F 7.93, M 6.64)

…and where Males scored them higher:
The King of the Golden Hall (F 7.29, 7.97)
Dwarf Women (F 6.58, M 7.19)
The Host of the Eldar (F 7.28, M 7.83)

The most gender neutral scenes were:
A Journey in the Dark (both 9.04)
The Great River (both 8.71)
Simbelmynë on the Burial Mounds (both 8.46)
The Uruk-hai (both 7.37)
The Grace of the Valar (both 6.94)
The Final Tally (both 4.21)


Not much to say on that one.


Overall Analysis – North American?

Code: Select all Film No Yes Diff TTT 7.91 7.37 0.54 FOTR 8.51 8.07 0.44 ROTK 8.11 7.82 0.29 Total 8.15 7.73 0.43

So Non-North Americans enjoyed all three movies more than the North Americans. Although the ranking of the three movies is the same, there is a significant difference in TTT.

Looking at it by book, there is a difference in the rankings. Non-North Americans put Book 2 as their favorite, with Book 6 second. North Americans had them the other way around.

Looking at the individual chapters, the three biggest differences where Non-North Americans (N) scored them higher than the North Americans (Y) did were:
The Burning of the Westfold (N 8.41, Y 6.43)
The Story Forseen from Lórien (N 7.69, Y 6.13)
The Caverns of Isengard (N 8.50, Y 6.95)

…and where North Americans scored them higher:
The Final Tally (N 2.57, Y 4.68)
The Fellowship Reunited (N 6.75, Y 7.57)
The Return of the King (N 8.04, Y 8.74)

The most geographically-neutral scenes were:
Aragorn Takes the Paths of the Dead (both 7.64)
The Siege of Gondor (both 8.19)
The Uruk-hai (both 7.38)


Note how 10/10 for the Non-North Americans bucks the trend.


Overall Analysis – Are the results skewed by geography and/or gender?

Well, yes they are. 75% of the replies were from North Americans, and 57% of them were from Females. The Female percentage is about right, but the geographical split is not representative of the website(s).

If we were to weight the scores such that the spread is more indicative of the website as a whole (I’m guessing 60% of the population(s) are North American), this would give the Top Ten chapters as (original rankings in brackets):
1 (1) The Ride of the Rohirrim
2 (2) The Departure of Boromir
3 (4) Prologue
4 (3) The End of All Things
5 (5) The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
6 (6) Minas Tirith
7 (11) The Lighting of the Beacons
8 (10) The Breaking of the Fellowship
9 (8) The Foundations of Stone
10 (7)Very Old Friends

…and the Bottom Ten virtually unchanged…
179 (177) The Glittering Caves
180 (180) Ent Draft
181 (181) The Fighting Uruk-hai
182 (182) One of the Dúnedain
183 (183) Master Peregrin's Plan
184 (184) The Entmoot Decides
185 (185) The Parting of Sam and Frodo
186 (186) The Paths of the Dead
187 (187) The Corsairs of Umbar
188 (188) The Final Tally

At the end of the day, all the stats really show, as is true for any survey, is the actual population surveyed – ie posters that bothered to reply.

The one statistic missing from all of this is the number of pints of sweat V-man put into getting this whole thing going and the effort in pushing for replies for weeks.

Wow! Thanks for doing all that, TLE! It is certainly interesting to see the graphs like that!



Thanks to VtF for doing the poll!