board77

Hey guys, come over the Turf and hang out at the Grand Opening Celebration. Plenty of time to argue about this stuff later.

After I release the results of the poll, there will be lots of fodder for arguing, I promise.

I think what yov means by episodic is "a series of loosely connected yet separate events." For example, the Mines of Moria: This obviously has an impact on the overall story (through the loss of Gandalf) but it is really an isolated event that has nothing to do with the Ring quest apart from the fact that it is along the way. Lothlorien is a similar episode - looking in the Mirror impacts the story but it is really just another stop along the way. Even Bree, Weathertop, and Rivendell fall into this pattern - they are all part of the overall journey but they are isolated episodes in and of themselves. There is no real resolution to FotR, though there is a climax.

In TTT, the storylines are separate, but each group of characters is now focused on a specific goal which (for the most part) they achieve during the course of the movie. The strongest is the Rohan storyline which culminates in Helm's Deep. The Treebeard storyline culminates in the destruction of Isengard. Frodo and Sam's journey is less focused on an outward goal in TTT apart from drawing closer to Mordor, but their part of the story is more internal and focuses on the development of Gollum's conflict as paralleled with Frodo's struggle and ends with Gollum's fateful decision.

I agree that FotR is the more episodic film, though I don't think that makes it a lesser film.

Quote:

adj 1: of writing or narration; divided into or composed of episodes; "the book is episodic and the incidents don't always hang together"

But the incidents DO hang together and are dependant on that which has gone before. Cause and effect.

First of all ... this question has to be answered: If you removed any one of the episodes would it detract from the story assuming that we accept the Ring quest as the main focus?

I think it would.

Okay. Let's take your supposition one episode at a time and see whether or not it is intrinsic to LOTR.

Without Bree the hobbits would not meet Aragorn. They would have no protector, no guide and quite possibly would not even survive.

Weathertop: Frodo would not be stabbed by the Witch King. Imo, that wound is necessary for Frodo's spiritual growth.


Rivendell is where the nine come together and where it is decided what to do with the Ring. Without Rivendell, Frodo might well have thrown it away or even claimed it as it worked its influence upon him.

Without Moria there would be not be a conversation between Gandalf and Frodo about pity. Which might lead to Frodo or Sam killing Gollum before reaching Mt. Doom. Not to mention the fact that Gandalf's fall enables his return as the White.

In Lothlorien the gifts are bestowed. You don't think the light of Earendil is necessary as a symbol of hope when all seems lost?

.... There is no real resolution to TTT either. Helm's Deep is not a resolution.

Results have been posted in the Petite Opening Celebration.

Sassafras wrote:

And the plot of TTT is ....?

Answer: Episodic. Comprised of three main episodes

They're not three episodes, they're three plotlines. There is a massive difference.

FOTR episode 1: Hey, look at these tasty mushrooms. AAAAAAAAHHHH!! Some scary black thing is on the road!! Ruuuuun!!!!! ... *phew* Now we're safe.

FOTR episode 2: Do you know how to get to Bree. AAAAAAAAAAAAAH!! More scary black things are in the bushes!! Run towards the river!!!! ... *phew* Now we're safe.

FOTR episode 3: Want some nice, crispy bacon? AAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!! Even more scary black things are hunting us up this hil!!! Set 'em on fire!! ... *phew* Now we're safe.

Shall I continue?

A huge portion of FOTR is made of a string of encounters which have little to no bearing on the plot as a whole or the character's development. Weathertop above might be an exception due to the stabbing being a necessary plot point but otherwise there is little sense of purpose to alot of what happens. You could easily cut out a good quarter, if not more, of FOTR without affecting the storyline or meaning or characters in the slightest. Add to that that the storyline isn't really about anything in an emotional or thematic sense. It is purely a story about a group of people going from point A to point B. That's not to say that some meaningful things aren't said/done, but the story as a whole isn't about anything.

None of that applies to TTT.
The Rohan storyline is about courage and faith in the face of the grimmest darkness. It's about determination and perserverance, about following through with the right thing to do even to the death. The storyline doesn't contain moments about that, that is what the storyline is. And the vast majority of the scenes flow with the emotional theme, from the early scenes with the Three Hunters, to the choices our heros make in Rohan, to the glorious final stand in Helm's Deep. The plotline is extremely cohesive and united and flows very naturally throughout with ideas and not merely events a la FOTR.

The Merry & Pip storyline plays with the same theme but from a different angle, from the angle of the non-heros M & P. Their storyline is about their growth as characters and them learning what the Rohan heroes already are living - that the darkness must be confronted even in the face of hopelessness. Treebeard is the beautiful representative of complacency, who says "this is not our war" but is eventually shown the consequences of that complacency. Their storyline ties in beautifullly with the Rohan storyline from a thematic standpoint. It is utter genious, imo.

The F & S & G storyline continues with the idea but from a much more subtle & difficult angle - what if the darkness that you're facing is not external but internal? The war here becomes almost entirely a psychological one and as such is the most difficult and intense of the three. But nonetheless, it is part of the same struggle and the brilliant weaving of the threads through that same tapestry emphasize that. This storyline comes closest to total despair but our grand finale ties it all together.

Majestically, the film ultimately rejoices that even in the very face of death, goodness and hope remain and that it is worth fighting for. With the exception of only a handful of scenes, practically every moment in the film is used to build towards that grand thematic exclamation mark. FOTR has no theme - no point - build towards and so ultimately it doesn't really matter if that avalanche had fallen or not, if the watcher had attacked or not, if the staircase had crumbled or not. As long as Frodo ends up in Point B in the end, it doesn't end up mattering all that much how he got there.

The FOTR story line is about a growing understanding of the nature of the Ring and shows the hobbits beginning to grasp the importance of the quest. It is an introduction, if you will. It sets up much that will come to fruition later on. It matters! It matters especially after Rivendell.

<and we all know Tolkien began writing intending only a Hobbit sequel and how the story took on a life of its own and evolved uniquely into LOTR>

The examples you gave are all incidentals and do little to advance the plot. Such examples can be found in all three films. Ent Draught in TTT for one. Eowyn's infatuation with Aragorn's for another. The examples I gave, in answer to fisssh's assertions, namely Bree, Weathertop, Rivendell, Moria and Lothlorian ARE necessary to both texture and plot of LOTR.

They are not three separate films (well, they are, but you know what I mean) just as the book is not a trilogy. It is one long and very involved story.

To take your hypothesis As long as Frodo ends up in Point B in the end, it doesn't end up mattering all that much how he got there. ...
Of course it matters how he got to the Emyn Muil. If you eliminated, say,
Moria and Gandalf did not talk about the necessity of mercy in the face of evil intent would Frodo have spared Gollum's life? If the Balrog/Gandalf confrontation had not occured and Gandalf had not fallen and been 'sent back' would the outcome have been the same?

FOTR may have little purpose for you. For me, once Rivendell is reached and the council is called, I see little that is extraneous and/or unecessary.

Your milage may vary.

Well for my part, describing something as an episode doesn't mean it's meaningless or unimportant to the story, and I certainly didn't mean it in a negative or derogatory way. Obviously Bree, Weathertop, Rivendell, Moria, Lothlorien, and Amon Hen are all vital to the overall story of LotR (i.e., all 3 films) which I agree is Frodo's journey and the Ring quest.

To me it's more of a structural thing. In FotR, the characters are travelling from event to event. In each event, something is gained or lost, but they are distinct events in the overall journey of the three films. In TTT, the events in each separate storyline build to a specific resolution in that film. (And I disagree that Helm's Deep is not a resolution - it is the defeat of Saruman's army which allows them to focus wholly on Sauron.) The exception is Frodo's storyline, which as the main storyline doesn't really resolve til RotK.

I actually prefer FotR to TTT (though not by much!). I just think they are structured differently. That's all. A matter of semantics, which I guess we differ on.

Anyhoo, on to the fun stuff.

*ahem*

From the poll results:

Quote:

The highest rating was by fisssh at 9.271276596

I won! Whoooooooooooooooohoo!

fisssh wrote:

I actually prefer FotR to TTT (though not by much!). I just think they are structured differently. That's all. A matter of semantics, which I guess we differ on.

Well, hell! I'm a Yankee fan and you're a White Sox fan!

We're not allowed to agree.



Um, did you win a prize?

Sassafras wrote:

Um, did you win a prize?

Why yes, I received a pair of rose-colored glasses - but strangely they had the initials I.S. on them.

Just kidding Iavas!

Thank you Voronwe for all your work!

Here are my thoughts on the Top Ten:
1.— 46. The Ride of the Rohirrim 9.794118
2.— 45. The Departure of Boromir 9.625
3.— 1. Prologue 9.302632
4.— 72. The End of All Things 9.29
5.— 36. The Bridge of Khazad-dûm 9.232432
6.— 11. Minas Tirith 9.182353
7.— 4. Very Old Friends 9.151351
8.— 44. The Breaking of the Fellowship 9.097059
9.— 19. The Lighting of the Beacons 9.060606
10.— 1. The Foundations of Stone 9.037143

I don't think there are any real surprises here. The Ride of the Rohirrim was a shoe-in. It's just such an amazing, moving moment - a key scene from the book sprung to life on the screen in the grandest possible way.

And Boromir's death a close runner-up - brilliant acting by Sean Bean, and thought by many heretics, moi included, to have improved on the book by making Boromir's conflicted character more understandable and his sacrifice more meaningful.

I'm glad to see a relatively quiet little scene - Very Old Friends - in the top ten. Nothing epic here, just good character interaction - a tribute to the fine acting skills of the two Ians.

Interesting that the only TTT scene is Foundations of Stone which is largely (though not entirely) a recap of the #5 scene the Bridge of Khazad-dum! Poor TTT, the neglected middle child.

I'm not really surprised, though I am sorry, that two little gems - Arwen's Fate and A Far Green Country - did not make it into the top ten, though they both scored well overall. I rated them both 10 because in my view they were both inventive ways of conveying difficult themes and ideas from the book, which they could easily have left out entirely but thankfully chose not to.

Teh Aquatic One wrote:

Quote:

I'm not really surprised, though I am sorry, that two little gems - Arwen's Fate and A Far Green Country - did not make it into the top ten, though they both scored well overall. I rated them both 10 because in my view they were both inventive ways of conveying difficult themes and ideas from the book, which they could easily have left out entirely but thankfully chose not to.

To which I will add Where is the Horse and the Rider? and The Passing of Theoden. Both very reflective scenes which poignantly used Tolkien's powerful words. The Horse and the Rider is one of my favourites; I think Bernard Hill's sonorous delivery is unparalled.

Aaaargh, don't really have time to say everything I'd like to say! First, I am not at all trying to say FOTR isn't awesomeness. I love all three movies dearly. I'm just explaining why I really think that, objectively, TTT is superior to TTT. Sassy, I agree with most of what you said in your reply to me. My statements about FOTR are being exaggerated somewhat to make the contrast I see between TTT & FOTR clearer.


I remember reading for the first couple of Harry Potter movies a lot of criticism that they felt episodic. By this, it was generally meant that the movies felt like they would take a chapter from the book and film it, then take the next chapter and film it, then the next and so on. This approach works fine for books but having that "chapter" feel in a film IS a bad thing, IMO, and FOTR suffers from it big time. Film doesn't work well like a series of chapters like books do cuz it just feels awkward on film. It gives it a disjointed, jerky pacing (something which I remember people complaining about A LOT back when the movies first came out).

Sassafras wrote:

To which I will add Where is the Horse and the Rider? and The Passing of Theoden. Both very reflective scenes which poignantly used Tolkien's powerful words. The Horse and the Rider is one of my favourites; I think Bernard Hill's sonorous delivery is unparalled.

Oh man, I wept - and I do mean sobbed - through the Horse and Rider scene every time I saw TTT in the theater... I still tear up just thinking about it. Great, great scene.

And now I shall descend to the Bottom Ten:
179.— 24. Brego 6.395455
180.— 19. Ent Draft 6.369697
181.— 40. The Fighting Uruk-hai 6.305882
182.— 54. Master Peregrin's Plan 6.279688
183.— 32. One of the Dúnedain 6.246875
184.— 52. The Entmoot Decides 6.087879
185.— 35. The Paths of the Dead 5.251515
186.— 27. The Parting of Sam and Frodo 5.147059
187.— 37. The Corsairs of Umbar 4.16129
188.— 62. The Final Tally 4.033333

So the Final Tally is the dregs, eh? Makes your nervous system twitch?

I'm kind of surprised that the Corsairs of Umbar was not ranked worst after all the hue and cry. It's a pretty useless little scene - even Fran and Philippa thought so! And I have to say the acting is subpar - even Viggo (whom I love, want to have his babies, etc.) sounds incredibly stilted. The ships looked great on the Anduin though.

The Parting of Sam and Frodo is the lowest ranked significant scene (as opposed to the other two which were fluff). No surprise here. That was one big, risky change!

I wonder how the PotD would have ranked sans skull avalanche?

The Entmoot Decides ... the wrong thing and the Hobbits have to sort them out! Yes, I can see where people had problems with this one.

The infamous Stew Scene. Why is it called One of the Dunedain - oh yes, it had that nice bit about Aragorn's age and lineage and his riding with the Rohirrim under Thengel. I quite liked that.

Master Peregrin's Plan - well he wouldn't have had to come up with a plan if the Entmoot had decided the right thing in the first place, now would he?

The Fighting Uruk-hai aka Saruman the Motivational Speaker. What, you don't want Manflesh?!

Aw, the Ent Draft, or should I say Draught. I thought this was a cute little scene, if extraneous.

Same with Brego - the horse needs a character arc, darn it! Is that so wrong?!

fisssh wrote:

I'm not really surprised, though I am sorry, that two little gems - Arwen's Fate and A Far Green Country -

Glad another person recognizes 'A Far Green Country'. That scene is definately in my top ten. It moves me so much...I always tear up. It's such a wonderful, wonderful scene.

I'm also suprised that the Corsairs didn't come in last as it's MUCH worse than 'The Final Tally'. Upon watching the Corsairs last night again and paying attention to, I realized how bad it really is. Aragorn's words about not letting them enter Gondor are the only good thing about it.

I know it's too late, but I done it so I may as well post it.

Fellowship of the Ring
1. Prologue 8
2. Concerning Hobbits 7
3. The Shire 7
4. Very Old Friends 8
5. A Long-expected Party 7
6. Farewell Dear Bilbo 8
7. Keep It Secret, Keep It Safe 6
8. The Account of Isildur 9
9. At the Green Dragon 8
10. The Shadow of the Past 7
11. The Passing of the Elves 9
12. Saruman the White 5
13. A Short Cut to Mushrooms 8
14. Bucklebury Ferry 7
15. At the Sign of the Prancing Pony 6
16. The Nazgûl 6
17. The Midgewater Marshes 9
18. The Spoiling of Isengard 7
19. A Knife in the Dark 4
20. The Caverns of Isengard 6
21. Flight to the Ford 6
22. Rivendell 10
23. Many Meetings 8
24. The Fate of the Ring 9
25. The Sword That Was Broken 9
26. The Evenstar 9
27. The Council of Elrond 7
28. Gilraen's Memorial 8
29. Bilbo's Gifts 10
30. The Departure of the Fellowship 10
31. The Ring Goes South 10
32. The Pass of Caradhras 6
33. Moria 7
34. A Journey in the Dark 10
35. Balin's Tomb 8
36. The Bridge of Khazad-dûm 9
37. Lothlórien 7
38. Caras Galadhon 5
39. The Mirror of Galadriel 6
40. The Fighting Uruk-hai 7
41. Farewell to Lórien 8
42. The Great River 10
43. Parth Galen 9
44. The Breaking of the Fellowship 8
45. The Departure of Boromir 8
46. The Road Goes Ever On... 8

Thanks, Impy. I will be adding in people's ballots as they come in, so please, post away.

That goes for you, too, Marty.

I won't be specifically looking for edits to existing ballots, so if anyone does want to edit their ballots, please give me a heads up so that I know.

Voronwe, your poll was exactly what the celebration needed tonight.

Thanks so much for assembling all of that! It was a job!

Jn

It was a job! But it was a fun job. (Sure beat lawyering)

Where are the results posted? I can't find them! Could osmeone please post a link...or put a link in the first post?

Thanks!

Jewel, I did better then that. I posted the full results in the first post here.