board77

http://gr.bolt.com/articles/violence/violence.htm

I'm reposting this article from Manwe. I stole it from Epor.

I thought it was a well-written article from a gaming website's p.o.v. I've never looked at the numbers myself, but I was surprised to see that violent crime among the youth is actually dropping, despite what lawmakers and activist moms would have you think.

The other reason I am posting this is because I think violent media gets a bad rap. It constantly gets blamed for causing an increase in violent crimes in young people through the media's use of fearmongering.

The biggest question for me is, do violent games cause aggressive kids, or are aggressive kids attracted to violent games (among the plethora of other non-aggressive kids)?

Alls I know is there are quite a few games out there that the Danimal will NOT be playing

I don't think the video games are the problem. I think it's a lack of parenting. Hue said this in the internet thread:

Quote:

Parenting takes work, hard work that many parents don't want to put in.

I think a lot of adults enter into having kids too lightly and don't really realize how hard it's going to be. Also, they're busy or stressed and end up using the TV, computer, or console as a virtual babysitter.

My parents didn't shelter me from violence as a kid too much. There were just a few gory things they didn't let me see, but in general, I got to see it. What they did that made the difference was talk to me about it and let me know that violence isn't right, that was pretend in the movies, and real violence in life is extremely serious. I don't think a lot of parents take the time to talk about this sort of thing with their kids...amongst other topics.

Of course, this is the country where we're not responsible for our own actions so we have to find someone else to blame/sue for the consquences.

TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:

The biggest question for me is, do violent games cause aggressive kids, or are aggressive kids attracted to violent games (among the plethora of other non-aggressive kids)?

Neither, I think, at least not exactly.

A violent game immerses a young kid into the world of gunfire and explosions, and rewards him (more likely than her) for the body count. It is naive to think that this makes no impression on a young child.

I suspect that a child with a truly aggressive temperament is not going to be satisfied with a videogame as an outlet. While it would not be fair to say that the game has "caused" such a temperament, it does suggest a way to express aggression through violence, and that is not a good thing.

Alternatively one could argue that Video games give violent children an alternative outlet for their problems rather than pounding on the kid next door. I'm not convinced of any of the arguments on this. They're all trying to prove their opinion instead of trying to look at the situation objectively.

Alatar

My son is 6 years old.

My son plays (almost) all the same video games I do (some are too cerebral for him).

My son, my nephew (age 11) and I will go into a game of Halo 2 and there will be sticky grenades and lead and plasma flying. There will be much death and carnage, especially on small maps. There will also be lots of, "HA! Gotcha!" When we can get two different TVs and Xboxes in different rooms, there is a lot of, "WHERE WERE YOU?!?!?!!?" My nephew's skill has almost surpassed my own in this game, and I have told him I am impressed.

Do games cause violence? Let's see!

My son is probably one of the best behaved children at his daycare. The daycare ladies actually made an available space (at the expense of a badly behaved child) when I moved back into the area simply because my son is a well-behaved kid (95% of the time). He helps out with the other kids, some of whom are older than he, and helps maintain order in a daycare (which, if you have ever been in ANY daycare, you can imagine how impossible that is).

My nephew has no idea how to fight in reality, despite being my sister's child (and my sister is a tomboy). He can hunt, but he prefers to sit around, talk on the phone with his 'not my girlfriend' and generally socialize or play video games as opposed to get mad at people and go on a rampage.

I like the article. Thank you.

I read the article and would like to weigh in on this issue.
First, I am 56 years old and have never played a single video game in my entire life for more than one minute before saying "this sucks". Not even something simple like PONG. I have two kids and when they were young they had Nintendo with some games and from time to time they tried to get me to play. I would always ask specifically how you play. My son had a wrestling game that he loved and I would ask him stuff like..... "if I want him to pick up his opponent and throw him over the ropes, how many times do I need to hit this button?" And , of course, the answer I got was "you just hit it until it works". I quickly decided that anything without specific instructions was not for me. So I am not into these games and care nothing for them.

On the other hand, I am not an opponent of this form of entertainment and see nothing wrong with it in theory. I recognize that each generation embraces their own forms of entertainment and what confounds me as new and different is simply accepted by them as normal and natural. Thats the way life works.

Video games comprise a wide variety of styles and topics and the vast majority are harmless and not violent. But it seems the most popular are the most violent. GRAND THEFT AUTO is just the latest example.

I do ask these questions however.

What good comes from a young person - or any person for that matter - in playing many hours of violent video games? What skills are they learning? What lessons are they learning? How are they becoming better people?

Yes, they are being entertained. But that answer would apply to thousands of things which could occupy a persons time and be considered as fun. So the fact that it is entertaining does not justify the game.

What could that person be doing with their valuable time if they spent it playing physically, exercising, reading, studying, or something as old fashioned as getting involved with people?

The article failed to include another chart in all its railing about crimes rates and social pathology. The chart I would like to see is the one about youth health, obesity and exercise. People under the age of thirty probably have the best exercised set of thumbs in the history of the world. But what about the rest of their bodies? Twice as many children are obese today as twenty years ago in terms of percentages. For many kids, exercise is a word only found in a dictionary.

When I was in school, nearly every class had its overweight kid. And that was about it. Today, it seems like an epidemic of fat and out of shape children. Where is the chart that shows the rise of popularity in home video games and the rise in obesity and poor health?

When I was a kid, you rode your bike everywhere. You played several types of ball morning through night. When it got to be night, you played hide and seek or tag or neighborhood games which involved lots of running and movement. Where are those children today and what are they doing? What are the implications for health and longevity for those children as they get to be adults? What are the costs, both financial and social for the larger society?

What good comes of a young and impressionable child in playing violent games in which people are maimed, tortured and killed without consequences or feeling? Do we truly believe that participating in the simulated death of others does not desensitize the participant even on some small level? It is obvious that many young people and older people can play these games without becoming social misfits, deviates or criminals. But what about the small percentage which do get inspired by these games and what they participate in? What about the weak minded who risk becoming a little bit more twisted or ammoral because they participate in these games?

Ancient Rome kept the populace dumb and happy with the gladiators and circuses. Government was left alone by the people and the Empire grew soft, weak, decayed, rotted from within and crumbled. But that lesson is probably not learned in GRAND THEFT AUTO.

Quote:

A violent game immerses a young kid into the world of gunfire and explosions, and rewards him (more likely than her) for the body count. It is naive to think that this makes no impression on a young child.

If it's a violent game then it's the parents responsibility not to let a young child play it. The game is not to blame. Adult games are now clearly labelled as such.

Once a child is old enough to know the difference between a video game and real life I don't think games can cause a problem.

I have two sons, 15 and 17. I don't let them rent games rated higher than "Teen" or play them in my house, although I don't try to police what they play elsewhere. It's the day-to-day exposure that bothers me, not playing particular games.

I've taken teens to R-rated films, but not the gorefests, and my sons have both told me, I think honestly, that they really dislike them. Which is the effect I wanted to produce by not letting them see dozens of films like that.

I just think it's possible to become numbed to things that a human who doesn't work in an ER probably ought not be numb to. When you see someone seriously hurt or killed, you should be horrified, not amused. Yeah, "it's just a game," or "it's just a movie, and those are just actors," but that over-and-over exposure has to have an effect, and not a good one.

I am sick and tired of the old saw that it is the responsibility of parents to police what their children do and watch. YES -- it is true. No complaint with that wisdom. But so friggin what? There are plenty of parents out there who are hooked on these games themselves who think they are being the cool, modern, with-it parent by letting Junior play games of carnage. Little Junior grows up with anti-social tendencies or worse, turns out with sociopathic tendencies and the lack of a conscience. He hurts somebody who doessomething as harmless as get in their way or take a bit too long to make a left turn and loses it and hurts somebody. Saying it is the parents responsibility does help that innocent victim. Saying it is the parents responsibility does not soften a coarsening and less polite society. Saying it is the parents responsibility does not help these children themselves who are victims of poor parenting.

And what about the parent who thinks they are being responsible by banning GRAND THEFT AUTO but allows Junior to spend countless hours playing other games that may not be so infamous but bad in their own way? What about all the lost hours that could have been spent reading or studying or interacting with real live people?

Primula_Baggins wrote:

I just think it's possible to become numbed to things that a human who doesn't work in an ER probably ought not be numb to. When you see someone seriously hurt or killed, you should be horrified, not amused. Yeah, "it's just a game," or "it's just a movie, and those are just actors," but that over-and-over exposure has to have an effect, and not a good one.

I have worked in an ER. What comes in video games is nowhere close to what I saw in there.

I don't believe I will ever see a video game simulate the effects of having someone brought into the ER with a 6" hole completely through their body where they were shot by a shotgun. The pumping blood, the entrials trying to spill out, the smell of powder and blood and whatever they were digesting, the screaming.... yeah.

Don't worry so much about the desensitivity, no game can prepare for the reality of real horror and gore. If anything, it will prepare them for the visual aspects, but not the other senses. The other alternative is to have them stand paralyzed with horror as something REALLY bad is happening and they could be next if they don't know to duck and cover.

I think that there is a real concern about desensitizing.

Even though the carnage of the video game is nothing compared to the carnage of the ER, and I have been there too, the attitude that solving grievances with over-the-top violence can be TAUGHT as a normal behavior.

I'm not sure that this is a problem for all children. My feeling about this parallels my feelings about porn, or gambling, or alcohol... there are people who are just more susceptible to these things. Most kids will "get" that it's not real, and no harm will be done. Some kids will become acclimated to violence.

Maybe all kids who think that such games are really kewl should volunteer some amount of time at an ER, or at a rehab hospital, where the victims of violence try to learn to live again. Nothing wrong with exposing them to the whole picture.

I wonder if it depends on how some people channel it. I have never actually played video games for the same reasons as SF - "hit it until it works" is not really that appealing to me. I have no problem with viewing or "causing" simulated violence, but there has to be some PURPOSE to it - it doesn't feell at all fulfilling to me.

That said, I'm going to throw out a potential parallel and see what you all think of it: what do you think of violent music, for example rap? What effect does listening to lyrical advocacy of violence, murder, drug use, sexual promiscuity, and sometimes hate speech have on people? I think the answer is probably a clear, decisive, "It depends."

For the past four years, I have been a fan of one, and only one, rap artist - Eminem. And it's not one of those, "But Mom, I just like the beat!" things - I have listened to, and been a fan of, his music as a whole, which includes the lyrics as a whole (although there are parts that I dislike strongly). Despite my feminism and my pro-GLBT stance, I (like so many other young people) began in my mid-teen years to identify with Eminem's disaffected attitude, his anger towards being bullied at school, defiance towards the PTB, a parent who didn't care about him, and much more. And so, when I listened to the music, I channeled that anger. For me, it was a way to vent that anger and frustration and aggression and get it out of my system. It honestly began to serve as a form of catharsis when I needed one pretty desperately. It never made me feel MORE angry, save temporarily, it never made me think that violence, drugs, casual and sometimes violent sex, or any of the other acts mentioned were acceptable, and it never even desensitized me to hearing about these things in any other context except that of Eminem's music, not even other artists. In the interests of full honesty, the one effect that it did have is that I became completely comfortable with swearing, and although I don't swear much around other people, I probably would not have picked up the habit at all without listening to this one rap artist.

I wonder if there is a parallel to be drawn there - whether some fans of violent video games are able to use them to vent aggression relatively harmlessly, then put down the controller and walk away from it, without being desensitized to violence in any context other than that of the video game. I think there probably are. For these people, even if it's not the "best" use of their time (whatever that is), it is at least probably not a harmful use.

I recently had the opportunity for the first time to see Eminem (and a lot of other rap artists I couldn't care less about - 50 Cent, Dre, D-12, Obie Trice, and whoever the heck else Em has signed to his label) perform live in San Jose, California, which actually changed my perspective. I guess that I'd always assumed that since rap had no effect on me, that the same was true for other people. But watching the people who were in the HP Pavilion with me, I started to question that. There were definitely a lot of people who were high there, there were people with weapons (the security check was not impressive, to say the least), there were people who were willing to engage in intercourse in the venue itself, and from eavesdropping on conversations, there were simply a lot of very disaffected people who were unemployed and not too interested in finding employment (and yet paid for $85 concert tickets), who had very low self-image, who had been in violent altercations recently or expected to be in a violent altercation that very night, and so on. Now, all that this might demonstrate is that many people who listen to rap music also just happen to be or do all of these things. But, it's also very possible that rap and music generally, possibly in coordination with video games, violent movies, and other forms of entertainment, has had some significant effect on the way they view the world and many of their actions. If the latter is the case, that is far more cause for concern.

Similarly, I wonder whether there is the latter crowd with video games - whether there are people who view violence, carnage, gore, or any of the sex-related or profanity-related peripherals that accompany those games as more acceptable in real life due to the games that they play. I'm not sure if it is possible to tell.

I would hypothesize that video games are at best one factor. Some elements of our society (particularly teenage and young adult males) have learned to glorify violence, and I do not think that's attributable to just one thing. I honestly don't think they have to stop playing video games, and I think that enforcing ID requirements for M-rated games will just put a Bandaid on the wound. These kids have got to be taught, from a much younger age, that there is NOTHING glorious, noble, heroic, or applause-worthy about killing and being killed, whether on a computer or TV screen or in real life. At best, when truly necessary (in the context of NECESSARY war), it is a lesser of two huge evils. And in the videogame context, it is mindless entertainment, which people should not partake of unless they are truly able to disengage it from real life.

- TP

Quote:

What about all the lost hours that could have been spent reading or studying or interacting with real live people?

I've seen studies that show video games actually help a child's development, by improving hand-eye coordination and through the myriad of games that involve problem-solving.

Also, video games can be a very social experience and involve lots of interaction with real people. If it hadn't been for video games, I probably would have been too shy to hang around with my flatmates at Uni. Playing multiplayer games with friends gave me many of the happiest and most fun times I had while growing up, and is one of the things I dearly miss about that time of my life.

It sounds to me like you have no clue about the positive side of video games because you personally can't see the point of them.

Just as anyone can choose to read LOTR over a trashy romance novel, so also can anyone choose to play Age of Empires or World of Warcraft over Thrill Kill or Grand Theft Auto. There are games out there that educate the player about history (i.e. Age of Empires, Rome: Total War, Romance of the Three Kingdoms, etc...). There are games out there that teach social skills and cooperation (i.e. World of Warcraft, Everquest, etc..). Just as reading is not necessarily bad or good, neither is the playing of video games.

As a long time gamer, I've played a wide variety of different types of games - everything from puzzle games to role playing games to sports games to fighting games to shooters to action/adventure games. Some were heaping masses of pointlessness. Others were innocent fun. And some actually managed to teach me something important and useful.

I doubt I've learned anything lastingly useful from playing games like Soul Caliber or Mortal Kombat. But, on the other hand, my interest in post Han dynasty Chinese history may never have been piqued if I hadn't played through the games based on Guanzhong Luo's famous epic The Romance of the Three Kingdoms. Likewise with those covering the fractured warring daimyo period of Nobunaga Oda and Takeda Shingen in Japan or the initial phases of Ghenghis Khan's empire building.

Then take games like World of Warcraft or Everquest. I'm terrible about calling my friends and family on the phone. I'm just not a phone guy. I must prefer email or forum communication. But my friends and family much prefer the phone. Enter World of Warcraft. We all get on together, and through the medium of this online game we are able to keep in contact while also having fun. I've been able to get to know my brother's wife better through this game than I would have otherwise.

What I'm trying to convey is that games aren't necessarily just wasted time that could be better spent on other pursuits. When taken in moderation, they can be wonderful teaching and communication tools. And, just as with picking out which book to read, you have to learn how to sift out the good from the bad.


As to the question of how video games affect children... I'm much more worried about the addicting qualities of video games than with their actual subject matter. Even relatively innocent games can be addicting, and a person can spend inordinate amounts of time playing them. This can lead to a very cloistered lifestyle, effectively shutting the person off from much of the outside world. Introverts can be especially at risk, as they tend to be more comfortable spending time alone.

I doubt we'll ever know for certain how video game violence or sex affects the player. But we do know how addiction affects them. We can at least approach the addiction issue having some clue as to what we should do.

That's my $.02

Anthriel - excellent post --- you did a great job at showing both sides of the issue. I agree 100% that there are people - probably the majority of people - for who these games are either harmless or even do some good since it may help them channel negative feelings or emotions in a harmless way. But then there is the small number to whom they contribute to anti-social attitudes, behaviors and even worse. That is a key point and concern.

Iavas - you are right in that I have never played these games, but wrong in that I see no good in them. For most people they are probably harmless or value neutral. I see nothing wrong in kids playing sports games or adventure games. For many it may even be a good thing IN MODERATION.

Nobody seems to have adressed my concern about the parallel in the rising obesity among the young and the rise of the video game as a hours consuming passion among that same group. Best set of thumbs in history but what is happeneing to the rest of the body? The rise in obesity, the lack of exercise, the development of a variety of illnesses which years ago were few and far between --- all this is not a good thing for the individual or for society as a whole.

And I imagine that there is a variety of things that can help with hand eye coordination. Shooting, maining, killing , and raping people while playing fames such as GRAND THEFT AUTO is probably not the best way to achieve those skills.

.

Quote:

Playing multiplayer games with friends gave me many of the happiest and most fun times I had while growing up, and is one of the things I dearly miss about that time of my life.

Yes, people who share a common activity can come together for that activity. But does this transfer over to people outside that activity? Yes you had fun and were entertained, but were you truly learning broader social skills that will help you with others once the game stops, the controls are put down and the TV is turned off? For some I am sure the answer is YES. For others, I would guess they can better relate to that control mechansim than they can relate or understand their fellow players.

sauronsfinger wrote:

Nobody seems to have adressed my concern about the parallel in the rising obesity among the young and the rise of the video game as a hours consuming passion among that same group. Best set of thumbs in history but what is happeneing to the rest of the body? The rise in obesity, the lack of exercise, the development of a variety of illnesses which years ago were few and far between --- all this is not a good thing for the individual or for society as a whole.

I was trying to SF. I said that the issue that more concerns me is the addictive quality of video games. Being addicted to video games is not conducive to keeping a healthy body (unless of course if you're playing games like Dance Dance Revolution).

I'd wager that the rise in obesity is due to many other factors, not only video games and sitting. Let's take the rise in fast food joints as well, and unhealthier eating habits. I don't think obesity and video games has any great correlation.

As for the youth playing games, and not going outside supposedly... that would be up to individual kids. When I was younger, I played plenty of games, and also went outside. I played sports with my friend constantly, rode bikes, etc. So, I don't see your point as being too strong against games.

Wolfie said it best. Reading is neither good nor bad, and video games are the same. If you think your child plays too many games, and should go outside more often, take the games away.

SF wrote:

Yes you had fun and were entertained, but were you truly learning broader social skills that will help you with others once the game stops, the controls are put down and the TV is turned off?

Maybe. You seem to imply that kids are not. Can you be so sure? What about online games that actual have some sort of interaction with other people, albeit it through chat channels?

sauronsfinger wrote:

Nobody seems to have adressed my concern about the parallel in the rising obesity among the young and the rise of the video game as a hours consuming passion among that same group. Best set of thumbs in history but what is happeneing to the rest of the body? The rise in obesity, the lack of exercise, the development of a variety of illnesses which years ago were few and far between --- all this is not a good thing for the individual or for society as a whole.

I am 6'5" and weigh 200 pounds. My physique is lean and I have very little body fat. My son is about 3'3" and weighs about 50-60 pounds. He possesses the same physique I do. With the exception of my sister and my father, all the other biological members of my family are somewhat overweight (including my ex-wife, who is my son's mother).

My son and I get sick once in a blue moon, and usually because of something we ate that disagreed with us. Neither of us are diabetic or having high blood pressure (although both run through both sides of my family). I don't see video games as being a health hazard as you seem to. I would say that there are other factors that contribute more to obesity and ill health than the video games. Perhaps poor diet WHILE playing video games has a more significant effect than the games themselves? I do cook healthy (if not particularly appetizing) meals.

sauronsfinger wrote:

And I imagine that there is a variety of things that can help with hand eye coordination. Shooting, maining, killing , and raping people while playing fames such as GRAND THEFT AUTO is probably not the best way to achieve those skills.

You seem awful hung up on this one game. You sound like the media. I would like to point out that new games come out about 1-4 PER WEEK. Of the 100-200 games that come out per year, about 10-20 are major hits. Of those 10-20, about 4-8 have Mature-related content. Of those 4-8, maybe one or two become media magnets and talking heads screaming about violent video games. GTA just happens to be one of those games.

sauronsfinger wrote:

Quote:

Playing multiplayer games with friends gave me many of the happiest and most fun times I had while growing up, and is one of the things I dearly miss about that time of my life.

Yes, people who share a common activity can come together for that activity. But does this transfer over to people outside that activity? Yes you had fun and were entertained, but were you truly learning broader social skills that will help you with others once the game stops, the controls are put down and the TV is turned off? For some I am sure the answer is YES. For others, I would guess they can better relate to that control mechansim than they can relate or understand their fellow players.

My son is the most popular kid in his daycare, and has had more girlfriends at age 6 than I had by age 25. Trust me, his social skills are NOT lacking.

His friends can talk about their games. He can talk about his games. It gives 'bragging rights' which are important to growing boys. Most importantly, it gives him something to demonstrate his skills WITHOUT ACTUALLY HURTING ANYONE. He gets involved with non-gaming activities as well, like tag out in the yard and I'm not sure what else (he does them away from me with his friends). Next year he has expressed an interest in sports.

He has a very broad variety of things he is knowledgable about, despite the fact I haven't been able to get him to read yet. During games he asks me to read stuff to him, and I'm using games as a tool to get him to start sounding out words but the process is slow. His own personal learning defect, if you will. Even the school has problems with his reading, but I fail to see how that's related to video games. I read to him every night before bed so it isn't lack of exposure.


I am just not seeing the problem you are seeing with the video games. You are so focused on this ONE GAME and these isolated incidents to not really visualize the whole gaming experience.

I recently retired after teaching pubic school for 33 years in Detroit. The first ten years were grades 6,7 and 8 and the last 23 in a high school. There is a marked and obvious difference that I saw in the weight of kids, their physiques and in their life style and exercise habits. The number of overweight children in todays classes compared to what I saw thirty years ago is alarming. It was even more pronounced in girls especially African American girls. The number of students who simply refused to do any type of cardio physical exercise rose dramatically over the decades. Many kids today simply elect to take a failing grade or try for some medical override rather than participate. This was virtually unheard of thirty years ago or was restricted to the most extreme case in the school.

In discussions about physical activity, a minority of children actually have any daily exercise. Most get no exercise of any kind on a daily basis. The number of health problems such as asthma and various deficit disorders has risen dramatically over the decades. When I started at the high school 23 years ago we had 1450 students and two special education rooms with two teachers. Today we have under 800 students and seven special ed teachers with their own rooms and at least three other teachers who act as support services.

I know that national figures also support what I saw on a local basis.

Does the rise of video games solely cause this?

NO
NO
NO

There are lots of causes to this.

Does the popularity of video games among the young contribute to social, mental and physical problems of the young?
Based on my direct observation of thousands of cases over several decades, my answer is YES.
But because it is not the sole and direct cause of childhood health decline, should we forget about it and ignore it? I sure hope not.

I said from the very start several things.
Most kids are not harmed by playing video games in moderation.
Many video games have good content and can be informative as well as educational.
Most people can even play violent and anit-social games without any direct harm to themselves.

I took issue with the article which was given to us to read at the start of this thread. Have others read it? Did Fixer read it? In it, the author cites the rise of video gaming and names GRAND THEFT AUTO (his choice not mine) and compares them to national crime statistics for the same time period. He concludes that since crime among the young has gone down in that period, that video games, specifically violent video games like GRAND THEFT AUTO are not a contributing factor.

My point was that you can do lots of things with charts and stats. You can take the same twenty year period and show the obvious increase in weight and obesity and deline of exercise among the young.

My posts were not a specific attack on GRAND THEFT AUTO. I mentioned it because the author at the start of the thread made it a major part of HIS argument.