board77

Eh, it's not mine. I found it and posted it on Ethel's board since it seemed appropriate.

Right, that's where I got it. Sorry, Eru, I should've credited you.

I see that I have been tardy in participating in several interesting topics in this thread:

The "Are we an Elitist Club" Question:

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My desire was to bring attention to something that seemed to be the root of several issues on this board. I cannot, unfortunately, pin it down to attempt to repair it. It is still too ephemeral to my senses. I am hoping that if others critical analyze what I can only barely visualize the source can be found and eliminated.

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Now you are discussing what I was talking about. Thank you. Please continue in this vein.

Fixer, if this discussion is what you are talking about, then I have a question. It seems to me that the question has drifted (thankfully) from an issue about b77 specifically to an issue about MB's in general... how does one make a n00b feel comfortable? How do you not appear off-putting to people who might be lurking while you chat with people you know? I know you have had lots of experience on MB's, so my question is this: is this such an unusual problem?

The only other MB I have much been associated with is TORC, and it was very much an issue for me to feel like I could just "jump in". However, I did jump in, and found marvelously kind people like Holby and Prim and Voronwe who acknowleged my presence and started to recognize me. Isn't this the path of acceptance in any MB community?

The "To Mentor or not to Mentor" question:

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Getting adopted, or asking for a mentor, or whatever, is suddenly making a huge deal out of the quest for acceptance, and if it still doesn't work, it just hurts more

Prim, I did get adopted, into Stormy's group; however, immediately after my "adoption", Stormy basically stopped participating at TORC. (It wasn't my fault! I swear!) It was nice, however, to have the Stormy's chat thread to hang out in, because those posters are vigilant about acknowledging anyone who posts by name, even if just to say hi. I was able to ask dumb questions of them, and KNOW that they would answer me; I didn't need to jump in looking like I knew everything already, which is how I sometimes felt in the M00bies forum. I very much understand your concerns with the adoption idea, but it actually served as a HUGE soft place for me to fall.

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and to have a place to ask about things without having to wonder what people will think when they ask questions - at least I think that's what makes people become adopted. (That, plus they just think it's a fun idea, I guess.)

Hardly anything that causes me to take a step into a crowded room seems fun to me, Hobby. (It SO sucks being shy...) But otherwise, I very much agree with your thoughts here!

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Just be aware that it may be a loaded term for those from TORC...not a BAD loaded term, but one with baggage from the mentoring done there.

I'm sorry, Ax, but I don't know what baggage you are referring to! (Sometimes I can really miss stuff that everyone else seems to see...) Was mentoring seen as a negative thing by some TORCers?

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I've been thinking about the welcome forum, which I like, but which may in itself be a little off-putting to the most introverted of us.

Ax, another question! What seems off-putting to you about the welcome forum?

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You know, I don't think it's paradoxical at all, it's inevitable. I mean, here everybody who is not a troll is accepted, which means everybody period, because we don't have trolls yet.

Frelga, this is very true. But not being tossed out, as we would do with a troll, is different than feeling "accepted". Feeling accepted is so dependent upon the personality and experience of the individual, that it would not be possible for US to affect that in any way other than simply trying to be universally kind to n00bs (and to go out of one's way to acknowledge their presence when they DO post, because it can be really hurtful to be taking such a risk and to be ignored. ).

The Paltroo question:

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YOU'RE LOOKING FOR A SPANKING, YOUNG LADY -- A MISERABLE POLTROO'S GOT NUTTIN' UNLESS HE'S GOT A REP -- GOTTA PROTECT MY STREET CRED!!!

TORN hunny, I hate to tell you this, but EVERYONE knows that you act all "street rep cred" tough, but you are in actuality just a big paltrooish pussy cat. <scratches TORN under the chin>

The English Grammar Question

Jn wrote:

That reminds of the word 'hang' for which the past tense is so often used incorrectly. My clothes were hung out to dry, but the criminal was hanged by the neck.

MORE ENGLISH GRAMMAR GEEKISHNESS!!!11 ACKKKKKK!!!111

<faints>

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We can see their faces, half-illuminated in the firelight, but they can see us much, much better.

I dunno why, but this makes me sad.

Poltroo or not.... I'm just shy to admit that my English is actually not half as good as I try to pretend... (so I ask in small letters not to disturb all the people who have something meaningful to say and slip out on my tip-toes not to wake up the poltroo or anybody else - the orcs need to be fed too)

I like Mama Orc....

Nin, it is impossible to "pretend" to speak English well and actually speak English well. Your English is excellent. You really shouldn't be shy about it—you should be proud.

And nobody knows what "poltroo" means until I tell them.

I've said before that I find the "chat" threads exclusive and offputting. I include Manweistas, Aunties and The Orphanage in that. I still post occasionally, but they feel like exclusive clubs.

That said, you can't force people to be open and inviting.

Alatar

Remember that many people lurked at TORC, sometimes for years, before they posted. I think Idyll did. I waited for a few months before I dared to post. There can be a pleasure in simply reading posts and after a while you get to appreciate the different personalities and you see an opening for your first post. It has been fortunate that many new people have come in since our opening that knew each other already so they could strike up chatty conversations straight away. I think a certain degree of persistance is needed for messageboard success.

I lurked for a long time on TORC, enjoying the conversation but contributing nothing. In fact, I lost my password and for a long time didn't bother to create a new identity.

One night I had a dream that I met one of the posters in real life and felt like I knew him, but suddenly realized that no one there knew me at all. So WampusCat_of_KhazadDum emerged from the cavernous depths.

(Of course, I never posted enough for anyone to know me anyway, but at least they might recognize the name!)

Anthriel wrote:

Fixer, if this discussion is what you are talking about, then I have a question. It seems to me that the question has drifted (thankfully) from an issue about b77 specifically to an issue about MB's in general... how does one make a n00b feel comfortable? How do you not appear off-putting to people who might be lurking while you chat with people you know? I know you have had lots of experience on MB's, so my question is this: is this such an unusual problem?

On the message boards I have frequented there was always something that bound everyone together. On FBFFA it was a love of gaming. On RLF it was a love of a particular comic strip. On TFN it was a devotion to freedem of expression. etc. Eventually those places acquired trolls which caused a great amount of damage to the social structure of things despite their strong overall unifying theme. Those trolls generally came about from a member who felt ostracized by the collective even though no group had really behaved badly to them (although individuals may have privately). My aim at directing the flow of this thread towards discussion on this topic is to discover a means by which we can prevent the internal generation of trolls by our own individual actions.

I have crossed with a few individuals here already on certain topics, but I believe there have been no lasting feelings of hostility. My background (both online and offline) is one of strife, conflict and combat so those who abhor such methods find me crude and barbaric in my words and actions. While I cannot deny my methods tend to be far from subtle and peaceful, my intentions are often the same as those who use diplomacy and coddling.

Thus far, my analysis of the 'defenses' of this board lead me to compliment those who have constructed it. I do feel the need to point out that the actions of individuals can still destroy even the strongest fortress from within, especially one such as this where there is no centralized governance. Just as we are all citizens of this board, we are also its representatives when we make any post or PM and that is something that we each need to remember. We will have moments of weakness or points where we are misunderstood and in our desire to clarify and defend our individual position we end up damaging the defenses of b77 as a whole. In this place, individual pride is the weakness which we must be wary of for b77's long-term survival.

Fixer, why do you seem to feel we're fighting a war? Why are we planning defenses? Seeking to survive?

If that's all the board was/is I wouldn't be here. I'm not interested in fighting battles, being the badass guy with the gun. That seems to be your stance on everything here.

This is not a war.

Jnyusa wrote:

That reminds of the word 'hang' for which the past tense is so often used incorrectly. My clothes were hung out to dry, but the criminal was hanged by the neck.
Jn

OK, now that we're on the subject of correct grammar, we need to discuss your signature...

You've used the plural "minions", but then you use the singular pronoun "thou".

Fixer, that was interesting, but it is not actually what I was asking about. (Were you ever in the military, btw?) Here's the section that I typed, and I'll highlight the points that I was asking about:

I wrote:

Fixer, if this discussion is what you are talking about, then I have a question. It seems to me that the question has drifted (thankfully) from an issue about b77 specifically to an issue about MB's in general... how does one make a n00b feel comfortable? How do you not appear off-putting to people who might be lurking while you chat with people you know? I know you have had lots of experience on MB's, so my question is this: is this such an unusual problem?

Thanks, Fixer. I do appreciate your willingness to share your point-of-view; as a veteran of many messageboards, you have useful experience.


Alatar: . Could you help me understand how Aunties, in particular, is being un-open, and uninviting? You can answer by PM if you'd like to keep it private... I would welcome a dialog where I could learn to act in a manner more welcoming. My heart is welcoming, but apparently my actions and/or the actions of my thread-buddies are not.

Just for the record, I wandered into the Manwe chat thread a few weeks ago (a group that I think of as pretty tight) and was overwhelmed with welcomes. Those folks were awesome. I think my own assumptions were what was holding me back there. (Not meaning to imply that's what's going on with your interactions, Al... just saying that that's what happened with me.)

In fact, I think I might mosey over there right now...




Nin: I am vastly impressed with your English. Especially since I know that it is not even just your second language... it's at least your third, right? English is TOUGH and I'm always impressed with how well our non-English-as-first-languagers do...


Jude:

Alatar wrote:

Fixer, why do you seem to feel we're fighting a war? Why are we planning defenses? Seeking to survive?

If that's all the board was/is I wouldn't be here. I'm not interested in fighting battles, being the badass guy with the gun. That seems to be your stance on everything here.

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." -- Thomas Jefferson

If you wish to remain a strife-free board in the future, you must remain aware of that which may threaten it. In this case, pride and arrogance are the enemies and they exist within each of us. They are what put people on the defensive, cause hurt feelings, isolate and exclude people, create private groups, and eventually cause normal users to become trolls.

Pride is what causes you to believe that you always know what is right so others must be wrong. Consider your comments above. You are fighting, you simply do not see it as such. This is an extension of your pride manifested in words. This sort of direct confrontation is what causes division and harm and it is what needs to be warded against from within.

I could attempt to tell you not to do it, but that would be my confronting you and attempting to protect my own pride. Instead I ask you to consider why you responded as you did. Is it because you wish to be right? Is it because you want to have someone else change their mind? Is it because you want to help someone else? Consider your motivations in why you did what you did and see if they are truly as altruistic as you might think at first.

Think, don't react.

Anthriel wrote:

Fixer, that was interesting, but it is not actually what I was asking about. (Were you ever in the military, btw?) Here's the section that I typed, and I'll highlight the points that I was asking about:

I wrote:

Fixer, if this discussion is what you are talking about, then I have a question. It seems to me that the question has drifted (thankfully) from an issue about b77 specifically to an issue about MB's in general... how does one make a n00b feel comfortable? How do you not appear off-putting to people who might be lurking while you chat with people you know? I know you have had lots of experience on MB's, so my question is this: is this such an unusual problem?

Thanks, Fixer. I do appreciate your willingness to share your point-of-view; as a veteran of many messageboards, you have useful experience.

Actually, I believe I answered these with my response to Alatar above. It is not an unusual problem. It has existed for as long as there have been humans being sociable. The solution is not something that will come all of the sudden, nor will it necessarily come from me. It will have to come from within each of us, moderating our own behavior. We will slip, we will have moments of weakness, but we must still try and forgive ourselves and others when we each fail.

(There is no record of my ever having served in any country's military anywhere in the world. I apologize I cannot go into greater detail.)

Anthy and all--

The mentoring threads turned into clubs. The first wave of new people came in, settled down, and voila! another permanent floating clique is born, excep this time they are clogging up the area designed for new people. The mentoring threads should have been rotated every three-six months to keep clots from forming.

And yes, the clique threads in Turf are, well, cliquish. People have conversations with the people they know, and say hi if they remember to if they see a FAMILIAR face.

HOWEVER! There is nothing WRONG with the above things happening, so long as they aren't the main events, so to speak. They are in fact inevitable.

As to the welcome area here, it works fine for people coming over from TORC that someone knows, and that's really what virtually all the threads there are examples of. If I was a REAL noob who saw that list of "hey, good to see you again" threads I would REALLY feel like an outsider.

Fixer wrote:

Actually, I believe I answered these with my response to Alatar above. It is not an unusual problem.

Sorry, Fixer, all I could read in your response to Alatar was sort of a paramilitary "got to be ready for the worst" text. A good point, I think, and one probably born from your experiences elsewhere; but not really what I was probing for.

This time, your answer of it not being an unusual problem helped me out with my question. Thanks, Fixer!

If you told me, would you have to kill me?


Ax- what is a club, anyway? It's a place where people hang out, where people get to know other people well enough to tease each other, have inside jokes, etc. I remember really falling in love with the Aunties crowd... they are SO funny to me, and who wouldn't be charmed by satch?... but I still had to ask about inside jokes (I remember having to ask about all the allusions to "doing laundry"... shoulda known it was a DIRTY joke. )

I think that the only time that clubs are bad is when they shun newcomers, either deliberately or simply out of laziness in engaging them. Otherwise, the getting to know each other on a comfortable level is why I hang out here! Or am I being too naive (again) about this stuff?

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If I was a REAL noob who saw that list of "hey, good to see you again" threads I would REALLY feel like an outsider.

I see your point. But really, outside of people willing to take complete newbies under their wings and create that instant "group", what can we do to ease this feeling? (This is not rhetorical, btw... the idea that we are, as a group or in any of our subgroups, too intimidating to join is a stressful one for me. I will do what I can to alleviate this... including <gulp> becoming a mentor, although the idea is kinda laughable to me... me? Someone's mentor? )

Anthriel wrote:

Fixer wrote:

Actually, I believe I answered these with my response to Alatar above. It is not an unusual problem.

Sorry, Fixer, all I could read in your response to Alatar was sort of a paramilitary "got to be ready for the worst" text. A good point, I think, and one probably born from your experiences elsewhere; but not really what I was probing for.

Let me create a metaphor for what I told Alatar since I fear I may have been unclear.

You walk into a room and there are two people who catch your eye as leading a given conversation. They seem identical with the exception of a single personality trait. One must always be right, while the other is willing to accept they may be wrong. Which is more approachable?

The only difference between the two is their pride and arrogance. Those who must always be right tend to collect people who will always agree with them. If you do not agree with them, you do not wish to be around them. Alternatively, the individual who is willing to admit they might be wrong is demonstrating less pride and arrogance, thus appearing more approachable to someone who might wish to disagree.

We must each attempt to not represent this board as one who must always be right. An individual may the authority on a given subject, but even authorities are sometimes wrong. We each must work towards remaining humble if we are to attract those who lurk at the edges of the campfire looking in. Ask them to tell their stories for all to hear and not judge them when they do so. Instead of saying, "You are wrong," we should be saying, "I don't understand. Please explain this to me."

Sorry, I'm a little confused here.

Did you just call me arrogant? Cause that's what it looked like to me. In all my posts here, where have I given you that impression? I called you on what I feel to be your increasingly militant stance on the board and asked you why you feel it's necessary.

Was that a reason to start accusing me of arrogance and pride?

You then accused me of reacting without thinking. Again, I find that insulting. Anyone who knows me here would vouch for the fact that I am far from confrontational.

You said in your last post:

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we should be saying, "I don't understand. Please explain this to me."

What exactly do you characterise my the opening line of my post as?

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Fixer, why do you seem to feel we're fighting a war? Why are we planning defenses? Seeking to survive?

It strikes me that you should be looking closer to home when you challenge people to think before reacting.

Fixer wrote:

Consider your comments above. You are fighting, you simply do not see it as such. This is an extension of your pride manifested in words. This sort of direct confrontation is what causes division and harm and it is what needs to be warded against from within.

Fixer, I did not see Alatar's comments to you as confrontational. The way I read his words, he was attempting to understand your perspective while sharing something of his own. In response, you made what I think could be taken as some very critical personal remarks (remarks that if they had been made to me, would certainly have put me on edge).

Or to put it another way, it seems to me you tried to explain Alatar to himself, rather than attempting to explain yourself to him.

I hope you won't see this as confrontational and 'fighting' mode. I think what is confrontational for one person can be normal conversation mode for another, depending on individual personalities.

Edit

See I cross-posted with Alatar.

Anthy,

I shouldn't have used the word "inviting" in the way that I did. Sorry for that. It's simply that those threads are populated by very close groups of friends. I feel welcome there, just not comfortable. It's like when you go to someones house. They may be genuinely delighted to see you, but you know that you're a guest in their house.

A recent example highlighted this when a member (who shall remain nameless) in a thread (that shall remain nameless) stated that they hoped no-one else would join the thread because they only had a little time to browse and wanted this thread for just their friends. I may be misrepresenting this, but that was the impression I got.

I know I'm always welcome to drop in to any of those threads, but I don't "belong" to any of them. They are exclusive in that sense. Visitor's are always welcome, but it's not their home.

Is that any clearer?

Alatar

Alatar wrote:

A recent example highlighted this when a member (who shall remain nameless) in a thread (that shall remain nameless) stated that they hoped no-one else would join the thread because they only had a little time to browse and wanted this thread for just their friends. I may be misrepresenting this, but that was the impression I got.

I didn't see that! That type of thing makes my blood boil...

There was a thread once populated by what I consider the "youngsters" of the board, and I popped in there once to remark on something, and one of the posters said "jeez, does EVERYBODY read this thread?" in response.



She probably didn't mean to imply that I wasn't welcome, but it sure looked like that to me.

So I don't do as I preach to do. I totally understand not feeling comfortable somewhere, especially if posts like that float around. I stayed out of that thread after that, I must say. WAY too many places to go where I feel a bit more included...


All that having been said, I would LOVE to have you post in Aunties, and I will physically FLAY anyone who makes you feel uncomfortable. You are such a great guy...